Coronavirus 2021: I Threw Up On My Sheep

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Blitter: Mar 16, 2011

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Spot on. China and Korea succeeded because of a default tendency for people to trust and accept authorities, and strong peer pressure, combined with pretty draconian measures by their governments. Japan has the same tendency to somewhat lesser extent and has done slightly worse as a result.
That they all have a habit of wearing surgical masks when ill probably contributes but there has been absolutely 0 evidence to say that this was the key factor.

I am not in the least surprised that Sweden or the USA, where people value individual freedom over respecting authority, have done a lot worse at stopping spread.
In Korea, the government pulled people's credit card history and cell phone locations, to see who had been near an outbreak. Would the American public have accepted that measure, if it were legal? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Your language was pretty unambiguous stating "Masks were never all that effective at preventing spread from an actively contagious person, indoors. Just slightly better." That is complete bullshit, with many types of masks providing 90% or better reduction in escaped microdroplets or aerosols. Viral load is strongly correlated to severity of disease as well so this reduction is also important in reducing severity of illness.

Just to be clear, any effective use of masks requires 85-95% compliance and always presupposes that a) only essential activities are performed and with high mask compliance b) no indoors public gatherings occur unmasked (no restaurants, bars whatsoever). Less thank 65% mask compliance even with those restrictions allows sufficient transmission to make it almost completely worthless.

Also, have you considered searching for studies looking at societal mask compliance effecting rates of transmission? There seem to be many studies and all of them strongly indicate that high public mask usage has been critical in restraining the rate of transmission.

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Of course the messaging should be to continue to wear masks - we should not assume 100% efficacy of vaccines and I never said otherwise. What I said was that a few idiots who stop wearing masks will not ruin the world for the rest of us, if they are vaccinated. I'm trying to tell user "Pakistani politics" to not panic about hypothetical mask-less vaccinated people in particular. Vaccine rollout will bring the R number below 1, and there is a pretty good chance that a particular mask-less vaccinated individual is not actually able to transmit the disease.

I don't mean to defend any particular idiotic statements (because I don't know which particular ones you're referring to) but at this point I don't see that Sweden has done that much worse than other countries in terms of deaths per capita. We did have a huge amount of elderly people die in spring 2020, disproportionally more than comparable countries, but since then I don't think it's been worse than others. I track 128.6 deaths per 100k right now at https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105 which puts us between France and Brazil on the list.

C'mon man, what kind of loving garbage is that to pat yourself on the back with the ghoulish results you've had - you should be comparing Swedish performance to Norway and Finland with less than a loving 10th of your death rates. Even Canada, with a much larger population in high density areas has less than half the deaths per million of Sweden.

Also what a loving weird jackoff session you're having about Swedish independence vs a loving functional social contract during a pandemic?

teen witch posted:

Individualist values still allows for blind trust of authority. You can have both.

Clearly.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 13:46

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:07

Plant MONSTER.: Mar 16, 2018; I was watching simpsons at 0.75 without knowing until a scene where homer and bart were getting back massages at a hotel and the noises they were making were super drawn out like a youtube poop

me: sir we are currently limiting our small shop to 2 customers at a time

guy: *points to the back of store* can i stand over there there's no one there

# ? Mar 2, 2021 13:59

Plant MONSTER.: Mar 16, 2018; I was watching simpsons at 0.75 without knowing until a scene where homer and bart were getting back massages at a hotel and the noises they were making were super drawn out like a youtube poop

i said no, btw

# ? Mar 2, 2021 14:07

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

I jumped on buying masks when you could still walk into Home Depot and just buy whatever 3M N95s you wanted. I thought everybody would be sick for I dunno, 2-4 months, maybe 6. So, I bought 12, thinking I'd probably still have plenty left when it was all over. I'm really glad that Lowes got those other N95s in. I buy a box every time I'm in.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 14:08

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

It seemed pretty obvious to me at the time that the mask lies were intended to avoid a panic/run on the market so I started wearing one right away

The lies were blatantly inconsistent, irrational and ridiculous.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 14:12

TheCenturion: May 3, 2013; HI I LIKE TO GIVE ADVICE ON RELATIONSHIPS

Gynovore posted:

Oh god, between this and the Trade Wars mention on another thread, I feel like I'm back on a BBS.

Play you some Legend of the Red Dragon. (e;fb)

Now I'm thinking back to almost dropping out of college due to a MUD addiction. Shoutout to MadROM.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 14:24

Xaintrailles: Aug 14, 2015

Antigravitas posted:

What has the WHO supposedly lied about?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/239-experts-with-one-big-claim-the-coronavirus-is-airborne.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52945210

Antigravitas posted:

Again, the role of the WHO is to facilitate international communication and cooperation. Its target audience is other nations. Nobody in those other nations has any delusions about the scope of the WHO's competencies.

"Politics" is literally always in the way of the WHO's initiatives, as is the case with all international endeavours. If the WHO stepped away from everything because of political interference you could scrap the whole thing, you'd never get anything like the Polio eradication programme off the ground.

You're denying the WHO are source of health advice for the public?
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public

Polio they can make useful progress on despite political interference, COVID it was quickly obvious that it was spiralling beyond their abilities, and they should have said that.

Xaintrailles fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Mar 2, 2021

# ? Mar 2, 2021 14:39

Fenarisk: Oct 27, 2005

Finally just deleted my social media accounts. I just got too exhausted and pissed seeing everyone either posting pics of bars and restaurants packed with no masks (which is against at least our local mandates but isn't being enforced anymore), or looking for vacation recommendations starting next month.

At least I know all the people to cut out of my life.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 16:44

hbag: Feb 13, 2021

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Of course the messaging should be to continue to wear masks - we should not assume 100% efficacy of vaccines and I never said otherwise. What I said was that a few idiots who stop wearing masks will not ruin the world for the rest of us, if they are vaccinated. I'm trying to tell user "Pakistani politics" to not panic about hypothetical mask-less vaccinated people in particular. Vaccine rollout will bring the R number below 1, and there is a pretty good chance that a particular mask-less vaccinated individual is not actually able to transmit the disease.

I get from that graph that masks have some effect at preventing spread but I'm not aware of any community where mask-wearing by itself has been a successful measure. You seem to be saying something like "masks are by themselves effective at stopping Covid spread", correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. The truth is that masks are just one among many layers of protection needed, and not the most effective one at that. (The most effective one being isolation.)

I don't mean to go and derail the thread into a mask/anti-mask discussion, I'm really not opposed to mask wearing like you seem to be assuming. I'm just worried about how many people seem to think that as long as they're wearing a mask, it's fine to go ahead and hang with your friends etc. That attitude is getting people killed everyday and I think it's sad and unnecessary. The public are clearly not educated about the swiss-cheese model of protection.

I don't mean to defend any particular idiotic statements (because I don't know which particular ones you're referring to) but at this point I don't see that Sweden has done that much worse than other countries in terms of deaths per capita. We did have a huge amount of elderly people die in spring 2020, disproportionally more than comparable countries, but since then I don't think it's been worse than others. I track 128.6 deaths per 100k right now at https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105 which puts us between France and Brazil on the list.

Edit edit: I guess in any country, you could always say that the lockdowns could have been harder and lives would have been saved, I guess that's not an unreasonable opinion to have if that's your case.

all's im seeing is i gotta stockpile my cheese

# ? Mar 2, 2021 16:48

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

Xaintrailles posted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/239-experts-with-one-big-claim-the-coronavirus-is-airborne.html

Not seeing the lie here? The WHO being conservative respective the available evidence isn't lying.

But let's pick apart the nyt a bit.

TFA posted:

Even in its latest update on the coronavirus, released June 29, the W.H.O. said airborne transmission of the virus is possible only after medical procedures that produce aerosols, or droplets smaller than 5 microns.

(emphasis mine)

What's the scope of the document the nyt bases this claim on and helpfully links to?

WHO posted:

This is the third edition of WHO�s interim guidance on infection prevention and control (IPC) strategies during health care

(emphasis also mine)

The document about health care procedures calls out aerosolising procedures especially due to their elevated risk. That doesn't mean other sources of aerosols don't exist.

Further:

TFA posted:

Proper ventilation and N95 masks are of concern only in those circumstances, according to the W.H.O.

Pure bullshit. I assume nyt writers think their readers are functionally illiterate because the source document directly contradicts this claim. The source document, again the one the nyt links to, recommends ventilation of 60L/SECOND/patient as the default in naturally ventilated areas. That is a lot of ventilation. I wonder why they recommend that much ventilation. It's because of aerosols

And that's as much time as I'm going to spend with that paper. This kind of disinformation is exhausting to litigate. It reads like the Iraq War justifications all over again. Different target, same rag providing cover for its government.

Xaintrailles posted:

You're denying the WHO are source of health advice for the public?

Yes I do. Your source of health advice is the relevant agency in your country. The one that doesn't gets a chunk of its funding yanked when it publishes information that HCQ is ineffective or whatever else enrages a nation state tomorrow.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 16:55

7of7: Jul 1, 2008

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

In Korea, the government pulled people's credit card history and cell phone locations, to see who had been near an outbreak. Would the American public have accepted that measure, if it were legal?

This is an interesting question. You'd think no but it turns out people in the US are just fine with mass surveillance, as indicated by the millions who have purchased Ring doorbell cameras which are then used by the police to monitor the neighborhood. There was just an article in The Washington Post about those. The government also buys cell and credit records from private companies that are hoovering up all those data.

Law enforcement and government in the US are more than happy to get into peoples' lives to investigate minor property crimes but I guess preventing a half a million people from dying would have been a bridge too far.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 17:36

Comfy Fleece Sweater: Apr 2, 2013; You see, but you do not observe.

Platystemon posted:

Listen to the worst person you know make a good point in March of last year:

Tucker Carlson, who promptly forgot how right he was.

Ironically, they couldn�t handle the truth

# ? Mar 2, 2021 18:26

Castaign: Apr 4, 2011; And now I knew that while my body sat safe in the cheerful little church, he had been hunting my soul in the Court of the Dragon.

Antigravitas posted:

What has the WHO supposedly lied about?

The WHO continued to claim that mask usage by the general public was unnecessary and could even increase transmission (due to improper handling or a sense of false security).

Until July of 2020.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 18:47

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

Managed to snag a vaccination appointment for later this month. Felt like trying to buy a PS5 refreshing 6 different sites at once.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 18:53

Wilkins Micawber: Jan 27, 2005; as we leave this existence
looking for another; Fallen Rib

Hippie Hedgehog I appreciate it, realtalk. I've only been dipping in and out of these threads so I don't have a super strong grasp on where science stands as of now. That, and I just moved here to the sunny southwest and not knowing anyone, having a job yet, and living where it is sunny all_the_time have my anxieties amplified. Seriously, how do people deal with sun??

Like I said upthread, my partner got their first dose of Moderna. I'm hoping to hear the same soon. I keep getting emails from back in CT and it sounds like my age group wouldn't even start being eligible until May at least. Hopefully this new place (a blue state, thank gently caress,) has their poo poo together a bit better than others. Hail Satan

# ? Mar 2, 2021 18:56

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

So, teachers can get the shot here in GA starting March 8th.

I have a substitute certificate (and a wildlife education certification) but have absolutely no intention of using it any time soon. They're also doing them for people involved in the funerary indstry and I've been doing a Ton of zoom funeral officiant duties recently with several requests for in-person duties I've had to turn down. AITA if I use these things to go get poked early even if I intend to stay hidden? Because I hesitantly feel like I am.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 20:08

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

Fallom posted:

It seemed pretty obvious to me at the time that the mask lies were intended to avoid a panic/run on the market so I started wearing one right away

The lies were blatantly inconsistent, irrational and ridiculous.

What they wanted you to hear. "It'd be pointless for you to buy masks" what they actually said "Mask aren't as effective if you wear them improperly please don't buy any as it's more important for healthcare workers to have them".

People are loving dumb and/or selfish so I can see why they'd take this approach but for people with the capacity to see through that bullshit, it's insulting. It also has the issue of creating idiots acting like they know poo poo spreading falsehoods through a game of telephone.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 20:35

Hippie Hedgehog: Feb 19, 2007; Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

sale on Banksy art posted:

If it's not masks and social distancing, I really don't know why Japan has not had more deaths.

I never saw a more socially distanced people than Japan. More single-person households than probably anywhere in the world. Close down the bars and love hotels and they have no place to meet anyone.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 20:46

Cacator: Aug 6, 2005; You're quite good at turning me on.

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

So, teachers can get the shot here in GA starting March 8th.

I have a substitute certificate (and a wildlife education certification) but have absolutely no intention of using it any time soon. They're also doing them for people involved in the funerary indstry and I've been doing a Ton of zoom funeral officiant duties recently with several requests for in-person duties I've had to turn down. AITA if I use these things to go get poked early even if I intend to stay hidden? Because I hesitantly feel like I am.

If you're eligible then just get the bloody vaccine. You're not taking it away from anybody if that's what you're worried about and even if that was the case I'm sure there's plenty of religious and conspiracy nuts who have already turned down their chance to get it.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 20:54

buffbus: Nov 19, 2012

Cacator posted:

If you're eligible then just get the bloody vaccine. You're not taking it away from anybody if that's what you're worried about and even if that was the case I'm sure there's plenty of religious and conspiracy nuts who have already turned down their chance to get it.

This TBH. So long as we have doses being thrown in the trash because people don't show up for appointments, get it when and where you can. Wasted doses help no one.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:09

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

Duck and Cover posted:

What they wanted you to hear. "It'd be pointless for you to buy masks" what they actually said "Mask aren't as effective if you wear them improperly please don't buy any as it's more important for healthcare workers to have them".

People are loving dumb and/or selfish so I can see why they'd take this approach but for people with the capacity to see through that bullshit, it's insulting. It also has the issue of creating idiots acting like they know poo poo spreading falsehoods through a game of telephone.

They all got scalped and hoarded anyway. In a parallel universe we might have instead gotten a national education campaign about how to effectively and safely wear a mask.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:18

John_A_Tallon: Nov 22, 2000; Oh my! Check out that mitre!

7of7 posted:

This is an interesting question. You'd think no but it turns out people in the US are just fine with mass surveillance, as indicated by the millions who have purchased Ring doorbell cameras which are then used by the police to monitor the neighborhood. There was just an article in The Washington Post about those. The government also buys cell and credit records from private companies that are hoovering up all those data.

Law enforcement and government in the US are more than happy to get into peoples' lives to investigate minor property crimes but I guess preventing a half a million people from dying would have been a bridge too far.

Minor crimes inconvenience, irritate, and visibly victimize the very people happy to bay for the cops to set the hounds on anyone who walks through their neighborhood with the wrong skin color. Of course they'll be happy to give up privacy and further enshrine the established power structure as long as it keeps them from feeling helpless.

Preventing those same people from inadvertently spreading a disease that stands a good chance of killing other human beings is too much for them though, because... it inconveniences them, irritates them, and makes them feel like they've been visibly victimized. It was never ever about actual security or anything that makes sense, and it is all about the theater of security and the emotional palliatives required to keep them in their lotus eater dreams.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:21

SulfurMonoxideCute: Feb 9, 2008; I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

Corporations tracking us and controlling our lives for profit: cool cool very good
Government tracking us and controlling our lives for public safety: no no very bad

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:29

Blitter: Mar 16, 2011

Duck and Cover posted:

People are loving dumb and/or selfish so I can see why they'd take this approach but for people with the capacity to see through that bullshit, it's insulting. It also has the issue of creating idiots acting like they know poo poo spreading falsehoods through a game of telephone.

Posters in this thread stull say poo poo like "Masks were never all that effective at preventing spread from an actively contagious person" and I wonder how much of that is still accepted as common knowledge based on early media reports and guidance from similarly delusional government policy.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:29

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

Blitter posted:

Posters in this thread stull say poo poo like "Masks were never all that effective at preventing spread from an actively contagious person" and I wonder how much of that is still accepted as common knowledge based on early media reports and guidance from similarly delusional government policy.

Just like there's still posters in here that are in full "SANITIZE EVERYTHING" mode. Turns out the information that goes out early is the stuff that sticks.

gently caress, I have to go to work tonight and deal with so much santizer stuff that's zero percent effective at doing anything other than making people feel safer than they are. It's like the TSA but for the coronavirus.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:32

Salt Fish: Sep 11, 2003; Cybernetic Crumb

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

In Korea, the government pulled people's credit card history and cell phone locations, to see who had been near an outbreak. Would the American public have accepted that measure, if it were legal? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Just wanted to pop in real quick and point out that every grocery store in the country does this to you and trade data about all the poo poo you're buying and where you live, shop, and work.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:41

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

Picnic Princess posted:

Corporations tracking us and controlling our lives for profit: cool cool very good
Government tracking us and controlling our lives for public safety: no no very bad

this sounds like notes taken by system of a down circa 2004.

I am not the rear end in a top hat then, I'll see when I can get a poke :neckbeard:

# ? Mar 2, 2021 21:43

Hatsune Mike: Oct 9, 2013

"Okay nothing surprises me any more" - that's what I thought - but what the gently caress Texas

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-biggest-us-state-lift-covid-19-mask-76208428

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:06

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

Hatsune Mike posted:

"Okay nothing surprises me any more" - that's what I thought - but what the gently caress Texas

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-biggest-us-state-lift-covid-19-mask-76208428

Texas lusts for its citizen's deaths.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:10

Ardlen: Sep 30, 2005; WoT

Hatsune Mike posted:

"Okay nothing surprises me any more" - that's what I thought - but what the gently caress Texas

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-biggest-us-state-lift-covid-19-mask-76208428

Politicians already got their shots.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:12

Fluffy Bunnies: Jan 10, 2009

Hatsune Mike posted:

"Okay nothing surprises me any more" - that's what I thought - but what the gently caress Texas

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-biggest-us-state-lift-covid-19-mask-76208428

my spouse is due to arrive in texas in about two weeks :lol:

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:20

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Fallom posted:

They all got scalped and hoarded anyway. In a parallel universe we might have instead gotten a national education campaign about how to effectively and safely wear a mask.

Our reality:

gently caress it! We�re going to three masks!

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:21

jokes: Dec 20, 2012; Uh... Kupo?

I just bought some new heavier duty masks. I'll be wearing a cloth mask with a HEPA filter under a faceguard.

I also expect a chud/boomer on the street to rip it off and cough "TRUMP" into my face.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:27

smoobles: Sep 4, 2014

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

my spouse is due to arrive in texas in about two weeks

if you call customer service Fedex can generally reroute back to Russia

# ? Mar 2, 2021 22:30

TheCenturion: May 3, 2013; HI I LIKE TO GIVE ADVICE ON RELATIONSHIPS

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

So, teachers can get the shot here in GA starting March 8th.

I have a substitute certificate (and a wildlife education certification) but have absolutely no intention of using it any time soon. They're also doing them for people involved in the funerary indstry and I've been doing a Ton of zoom funeral officiant duties recently with several requests for in-person duties I've had to turn down. AITA if I use these things to go get poked early even if I intend to stay hidden? Because I hesitantly feel like I am.

Your life is worth as much as anybody else�s. If you have the opportunity, get your shots.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 23:36

smoobles: Sep 4, 2014

Never give up your spot for a stranger, there's no way they'd do the same for you.

# ? Mar 2, 2021 23:55

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Hatsune Mike posted:

"Okay nothing surprises me any more" - that's what I thought - but what the gently caress Texas

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-biggest-us-state-lift-covid-19-mask-76208428

Apparently Mississippi is right behind them

https://twitter.com/RilwanFox8/status/1366869196957765632?s=20

# ? Mar 3, 2021 00:18

naem: May 29, 2011

we�ll never be rid of this virus at this rate

# ? Mar 3, 2021 00:25

Lolie: Jun 4, 2010; AUSGBS Thread Mum

Oh joy.

quote:

The research was carried out by the Brazil-UK Cadde project, whose work on genetic sequencing predates the pandemic. It includes the Institute of Tropical Medicine in S�o Paulo, the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and universities in Oxford, London and Birmingham.

Manaus, the largest city in the Amazon basin, suffered a first wave of Covid in April/May. Studies of blood donors suggested 66% of people had antibodies against the virus in July and 76% by October, which would have been expected to give them immunity.

But the city suffered a serious second wave. There could have been various explanations, including the possibility that the data on previous infection was wrong, but the team of researchers identified the P1 variant on 6 December. It spread rapidly: within eight weeks, it was implicated in 87% of cases.

Dr Nuno Faria of the MRC Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis at Imperial College London, said it had concluded that the variant was causing people who had already suffered from Covid to get it again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/02/brazil-variant-evaded-immunity-previous-covid-cases

# ? Mar 3, 2021 00:31

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:07

zgrowler2: Oct 29, 2011; HOW DOES THE IPHONE APP WORK?? I WILL SPAM ENDLESSLY EVERYWHERE AND DISREGARD ANY REPLIES

Picnic Princess posted:

Corporations tracking us and controlling our lives for profit: cool cool very good
Government tracking us and controlling our lives for public safety: no no very bad

I live in a house with a ring doorbell and blink cameras and an Alexa unit that my folks insist on humanizing and it boggles my mind that chuds are like this (and, more broadly, that everyone is Just loving Okay with constant and unavoidable surveillance)

FlamingLiberal posted:

Apparently Mississippi is right behind them

https://twitter.com/RilwanFox8/status/1366869196957765632?s=20

AL's mask mandate is set to expire Friday :confuoot:

# ? Mar 3, 2021 00:32

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Coronavirus 2021: I Threw Up On My Sheep

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