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Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




The part where Luke turns to the dark side because Sheev says "your dad did it" was unfathomably dumb and even if the rest of the writing was a masterpiece, it would still be a bad story

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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Defiance Industries posted:

The part where Luke turns to the dark side because Sheev says "your dad did it" was unfathomably dumb and even if the rest of the writing was a masterpiece, it would still be a bad story

Okay you might feel that way right now but have you considered that your dad considered the same information and he decided it was actually really smart and cool?

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




I think my dad has the same opinion of Star Wars as Harrison Ford does.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Look, Luke just wants to feel closer to his dad somehow, and podracing is all corporate nowadays so that just left this.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Defiance Industries posted:

The part where Luke turns to the dark side because Sheev says "your dad did it" was unfathomably dumb and even if the rest of the writing was a masterpiece, it would still be a bad story

You mean the bit where Luke pretends to be a bad guy because if he kills the Emperor he'll just jump into another clone body and Luke sees this plan as the only way to do anything about the massacre happening on Mon Calamari, spends the rest of the comic undermining the Emperor's plan from inside, gets caught up in playing the part trying to understand why his dad turned to the dark side, and tries to kill the Emperor when the opportunity to kill all the clones as well presents itself?

It's not the best story ever written, but it has a rather straightforward logic as to the choices the characters make. "Guy pretends to join the bad guys so he can take out the leader of the bad guys" is a pretty stock plot.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


This amused me.

https://kyraneko.tumblr.com/post/645667575806787584/nevertheless-moving-yulesend-copperbadge

Jazerus
May 24, 2011




fuckin' wormy. always knew he was a piece of poo poo

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009





Therm Scissorpunch is a Nephris from the planet Nepotis. Coincidentally, he only appeared in the movie that was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan's son.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Robot Style posted:



Therm Scissorpunch is a Nephris from the planet Nepotis. Coincidentally, he only appeared in the movie that was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan's son.

lmao, somebody was saltier than crait

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn are both in the X-Wing Miniatures game, but neither have force abilities.

Big Beef City
Aug 15, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 5 hours!


You see, his name is Therm, because he looks like a lobster, and there's a famous dish called lobster thermidor... And his hands look like scissors, so if he PUNCHES you it's like being PUNCHED. WITH SCISSORS!



IT'S GOLD, JERRY!

Hazo
Dec 30, 2004

SCIENCE





Therm Scissorpunch was posted back on page six, y’all are just too busy being jealous of him to notice


That Nepotis gag is new to me though lmao

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


While perusing Wookipedia, I found this gem about TIE fighters.

The Empire Is Stupid posted:

Graduates from prestigious flight academies across the galaxy underwent rigorous testing to become TIE pilots...Of all the cadets who underwent the Imperial pilot training program, ninety percent never graduated.

So, you have a training process so severe that barely anyone makes it, and you put them in the sci fi equivalent of World War I planes which explode if something brushes them hard and train them that they're expendable.

No wonder the old EU had like 30 T.I.E variants: they kept trying to fix the product when it was the process that was the issue.

Or maybe this is just the concepts of 'The empire is HUGE' and 'We only follow around people with plot armor' banging together.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Cornwind Evil posted:

While perusing Wookipedia, I found this gem about TIE fighters.


So, you have a training process so severe that barely anyone makes it, and you put them in the sci fi equivalent of World War I planes which explode if something brushes them hard and train them that they're expendable.

No wonder the old EU had like 30 T.I.E variants: they kept trying to fix the product when it was the process that was the issue.

Or maybe this is just the concepts of 'The empire is HUGE' and 'We only follow around people with plot armor' banging together.

Its because authors want to wank off TIE Fighter academies as a proxy for the USAF flight programs and never bother to reconcile that these are just fodder for the heroes.

It's like whenever the WWE tried to make someone seem like a credible opponent to Hogan or Cena: after a while the audience knows how it's going to end, and no fancy packaging can change that.

Cave Adapted
Jun 13, 2012


Cornwind Evil posted:

While perusing Wookipedia, I found this gem about TIE fighters.


So, you have a training process so severe that barely anyone makes it, and you put them in the sci fi equivalent of World War I planes which explode if something brushes them hard and train them that they're expendable.

No wonder the old EU had like 30 T.I.E variants: they kept trying to fix the product when it was the process that was the issue.

Or maybe this is just the concepts of 'The empire is HUGE' and 'We only follow around people with plot armor' banging together.

You're misunderstanding it, 10% of the cadets are stupid enough to pass and win the prize of flying a deathtrap.

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Cornwind Evil posted:

While perusing Wookipedia, I found this gem about TIE fighters.


So, you have a training process so severe that barely anyone makes it, and you put them in the sci fi equivalent of World War I planes which explode if something brushes them hard and train them that they're expendable.

No wonder the old EU had like 30 T.I.E variants: they kept trying to fix the product when it was the process that was the issue.

Or maybe this is just the concepts of 'The empire is HUGE' and 'We only follow around people with plot armor' banging together.

I mean, it is a GALACTIC empire, that graduating class of cadets could be a billion people to choose from, might as well get the top 100 million

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


also possible that they're selecting less for pure combat ability and more for willingness to obey orders to commit atrocities

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


It's part fifty-seven of the "TIE fighters are half A6M Zero, half Me109". That's pretty much exactly how the pre-war IJN pilot program worked.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I don't think much of the other material about Imperial pilots agrees with the idea that they're the result of some super elite training. There's a few fantastic pilots that pop out of the system, but they're more of a mistake than the expected result.

Of course, the aspects that would make you succeed in the academy of a fascist empire probably wouldn't have much to do with actual flying ability and more to do with who you know, whether you're the desired demographic, raw obedience to superiors, and bribery.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


I don't need elite pilots as the Empire, I need enough recruits to blot out the sun with TIE fighters to get across that I have a 100-to-1 numerical advantage, using fighters built by the lowest bidder.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Sodomy Hussein posted:

I don't need elite pilots as the Empire, I need enough recruits to blot out the sun with TIE fighters to get across that I have a 100-to-1 numerical advantage, using fighters built by the lowest bidder.

"This plan will never fail, unless my enemy happens to have a legendary pilot famous for his ability to get 100 kills in a single battle! He'd be some kind of... hundred-man slayer, or something. There's no way that guy could exist, though."

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

"90% fail to qualify as TIE pilots"

16% too tall for cockpit
4% too short for cockpit
4% fail eye or hearing exam
8% helmet doesn't fit
3% wrong number of fingers
2% didn't want to be a TIE pilot, filled out the paperwork wrong
2% were fine until they got up to 0G / freefall but just could not handle being off-planet
8% can't meet pushups and/or 400m dash minimum times
9% randomly moved to administrative duties and don't get enough hours in the cockpit to qualify
5% intentionally drop out after the 15th week for a civilian job
7% deemed politically unsuitable
17% Injured during Basic or during flight school

5% of applicants are just bad at flying a TIE fighter and the remaining 10% go on to see combat.

Speleothing fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Apr 17, 2021

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


Speaking of starship nonsense

The Last Jedi had its good points and its bad points, but here's what bugged me the most: left with no other options, the general in charge uses hyperspace to turn her ship into a giant laser-missile that wrecks the poo poo out of the First Order fleet and slices the super ultra giant ship in half before it ever gets to do anything. Okay fine.

All I ask is a reason why this was never done before. I'll take any sort of hand waves about circumstances and the right galactic positioning and all that, because losing one ship and person to rip the hell out of a whole army is such a potent tactic it should have been discovered and accounted for in defences centuries if not eons ago. It really strikes me as a fan who grew up who thought the move up and how clever it was and how effective it could be and just plopped it in when they got a chance to write something in the OFFICIAL accounts without thinking it through.

I don't need much Star Wars, I'm already accepting a world with magic space wizards and weapons so big they're built into planets, just some sort of reason will do! Even if it's in some side material or in a tweet!

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


It annoyed me too. I talked till I was blue in the face elsewhere on the forums about how it devalued a big part of some of the prior films simply because it never occurred whenever the situation was really dire, but I've pretty much made my peace with it. Now most of my ire is in the space-leia scene because it simultaneously makes explosions seem like not a big deal and being unprotected in the miserable vacuum of space not seem like a big deal and also being in a medically induced coma not seem like a big deal.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Jedis have been Super Saiyans since at least RotJ, just make your peace with it.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I only ever started worrying about the implications of nobody apparently ever thinking about that before weeks after seeing it, and while I was watching the movie, I was more concerned with those other ships that were in the nuRebel fleet back when it was still a fleet who had scenes where they died horribly where you just knew their sacrifice would be unremembered and unmourned and left mostly meaningless by the plot. If ramming was on the table, you'd think they could have their own big cool moments, but no.

Defiance Industries posted:

Jedis have been Super Saiyans since at least RotJ, just make your peace with it.

They really weren't. Lucas was actually pretty restrained with the supernatural abilities of jedi, much like how Tolkien was pretty restrained with how much magic Gandalf does. In RotJ Luke's got a couple super jumps and a little ESP, and that's it. Even in the prequels, the jedi didn't actually sling around very much magic by the standards of like superhero media. There absolutely wasn't the thing that happened with DBZ where powers just get inflated indefinitely until nothing really means anything because everything is so powerful that it's too abstract to meaningfully depict.

The sequels give off a real feeling of writers taking all the toys of the franchise and trying to push them to the limits of what could possibly be done with them. Instead of trying to find a groove of their own, everything is constantly framed in the perspective of the franchise, even if you're actively trying to be charitable and not do your own direct comparisons.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Cornwind Evil posted:

Speaking of starship nonsense

The Last Jedi had its good points and its bad points, but here's what bugged me the most: left with no other options, the general in charge uses hyperspace to turn her ship into a giant laser-missile that wrecks the poo poo out of the First Order fleet and slices the super ultra giant ship in half before it ever gets to do anything. Okay fine.

All I ask is a reason why this was never done before. I'll take any sort of hand waves about circumstances and the right galactic positioning and all that, because losing one ship and person to rip the hell out of a whole army is such a potent tactic it should have been discovered and accounted for in defences centuries if not eons ago. It really strikes me as a fan who grew up who thought the move up and how clever it was and how effective it could be and just plopped it in when they got a chance to write something in the OFFICIAL accounts without thinking it through.

I don't need much Star Wars, I'm already accepting a world with magic space wizards and weapons so big they're built into planets, just some sort of reason will do! Even if it's in some side material or in a tweet!

Didn't you see RoS? It was a one-in-a-million shot, would never work again.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


I guess we all forgot the hyperspace jump into a planetary atmosphere (and through a shield) of TFA, or whatever the gently caress that skipping poo poo from RoS? At least in TLJ something bad happened when you hyperjumped directly into another thing

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




SlothfulCobra posted:

Lucas was actually pretty restrained with the supernatural abilities of jedi, much like how Tolkien was pretty restrained with how much magic Gandalf does. In RotJ Luke's got a couple super jumps and a little ESP, and that's it. Even in the prequels, the jedi didn't actually sling around very much magic by the standards of like superhero media. There absolutely wasn't the thing that happened with DBZ where powers just get inflated indefinitely until nothing really means anything because everything is so powerful that it's too abstract to meaningfully depict.

They go from "Obi-Wan has the power of suggestion and Vader chokes one guy" to "Sheevy P bukkakes lightning all over everything" in the original trilogy. That's a pretty ludicrous ramp-up, not even getting into super-speed and a force-blast--struggle in the prequels.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


Fantastic Foreskin posted:

Didn't you see RoS? It was a one-in-a-million shot, would never work again.

Sure. Why not?

This is an actual question. Why wouldn't it? Aim ship at fleet, do same thing. Why does it not work now?

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Funny thing is, it does work again - one of the Star Destroyers in the end montage was destroyed that way.

I'm kind of expecting the High Republic stuff to explore it at some point. The series kicks off with ships all over the galaxy suddenly being ripped out of Hyperspace, with one breaking apart and turning into a hyperspace debris railgun that damages several planets across the galaxy. Since the villains of the series have some shady hyperspace tech, I'm expecting them to be revealed as responsible for the disaster, and for the Republic to do something like declare hyperspace weapons highly loving illegal and barbaric considering the amount of damage they do if you miss.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

One of the biggest things that bothered me with the Sequel Trilogy is that it had zero interest in the setting. We never learn WHY the New Republic is not trying to stop the First Order, Luke left a map and R2-D2 is just powered down and "sad," Anakin's lightsaber survived the fall down through the atmosphere of Bespin, or what the Knights of Ren are. Yeah, there are comics or books that expand on it, but you shouldn't have to go to a book to figure out the most basic parts of the plot. It doesn't matter that jumping to hyperspace took a long time in the original series (which allowed for those chase scenes in the past). It doesn't matter that the superweapon is shooting different planets across space, and that people on the surface of one planet can see it happen.

It's so loving lazy and obvious that it was built around fetishizing the props and story beats from the OT.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Cornwind Evil posted:

Sure. Why not?

This is an actual question. Why wouldn't it? Aim ship at fleet, do same thing. Why does it not work now?



It was a dumb thing for TLJ to do since now the big scary capital ships that define space combat in star wars are defenseless against anything with a hyperdrive, which can't be that expensive if every fighter in the rebel fleet has one.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

Obviously only a really big capital ship can do it.


"Obviously"

Salastine
Nov 4, 2008


I actually do have an answer to the "why didn't the heroes just hyperspace-kamikaze everything" question:

The Interdictor-class Star Destroyer (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_Star_Destroyer)

Some may recall that the ship was part of the old continuity but it was reintroduced in the Rebels cartoon. The Interdictor-class is a ship that can create a gravity well that both prevents ships from entering hyperspace and pulls out ships that are currently in hyperspace.

I'm sure all the lore about them is how only two were ever made or whatever but their existence at least explains away why there weren't heroic hyperspace-sacrifices of important Rebel and Resistance vessels in every battle (at least to some extent).

If you were the scrappy rebels you might not also want to sacrifice every capital ship you get your hands on either.

There's my contribution to this thread of essential and important science facts.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Salastine posted:

I actually do have an answer to the "why didn't the heroes just hyperspace-kamikaze everything" question:

The Interdictor-class Star Destroyer (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_Star_Destroyer)

Some may recall that the ship was part of the old continuity but it was reintroduced in the Rebels cartoon. The Interdictor-class is a ship that can create a gravity well that both prevents ships from entering hyperspace and pulls out ships that are currently in hyperspace.

I'm sure all the lore about them is how only two were ever made or whatever but their existence at least explains away why there weren't heroic hyperspace-sacrifices of important Rebel and Resistance vessels in every battle (at least to some extent).

If you were the scrappy rebels you might not also want to sacrifice every capital ship you get your hands on either.

There's my contribution to this thread of essential and important science facts.

TFA nullifies that by having Han drop out lightspeed within Starkiller Base's atmosphere, then ROS further nullified it by having Poe put the millenium falcon into hyperspace a few feet above a planet surface.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


What annoys me is there's an easy fix.

The whole plot is hinged on that the villains have a new plot device that lets them track people through hyperspace, which is otherwise nigh impossible. Have the rebel leader realize she can reverse it: this will 'stick' her ship to the main ship in a way that normally wouldn't happen. Without this, if she tried to do this 'hyperspace missile, the odds of her hitting anything are minuscule. Voila, same scene, the villains are hoist by their own petard in classic fashion by human ingenuity and the willingness to sacrifice, nothing is rendered impotent, nor does the entire galaxy look like idiots for never thinking of such a move in the who knows how many years the galaxy has been having star wars.

Then again, that's just movies in general. I remember reading once that just because you rendered the whole movie plot moot doesn't mean you're smart, it just means you're a smartass, because virtually NO entertainment will stand up to that sort of probing.

Salastine
Nov 4, 2008


I suppose "why didn't the good guys just hyperspace kill the bad guys" is the Star Wars equivalent of "why didn't the eagles just take the ring to Mordor".

Actually, had there been anything written about hyperspace-kamikazes before The Last Jedi?

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


There is actually an explanation that makes perfect sense for the Eagles thing, though.

Mostly that you don't particularly want to check a half-dozen Maiar for "will they loving grab the ring" at the same time.

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SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Salastine posted:

I suppose "why didn't the good guys just hyperspace kill the bad guys" is the Star Wars equivalent of "why didn't the eagles just take the ring to Mordor".

Actually, had there been anything written about hyperspace-kamikazes before The Last Jedi?

Actually pre-TLJ most of the writing was concerned with how hyperspace ramming wasn't possible, because it's such an obvious idea for anyone with a basic understanding of physics. Why would you need a deathstar when you can just strap a hyperdrive to a decently sized asteroid and ram it into a planet at the speed of light? It might now blow the planet to smithereens but it will release enough energy to kill everything on the planet a thousand times over.

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