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Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



nine-gear crow posted:

It got six seasons and it ended on its own terms even after ABC begged them to keep it going for another like three years. Lost went out on basically at the top of the world.

Shows what I know. Half right though.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

Honestly I'm surprised all the 'mystery box' criticisms turned out to be exactly right.

Heroes was more turbofucked by the writer's strike iirc, but then even after they had no excuse was still a dumpster fire.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Heroes was more turbofucked by the writer's strike iirc, but then even after they had no excuse was still a dumpster fire.

Heroes was always bad but that's a topic for another thread (That thread would be "Heroes: It Sucked" or "Heroes: They Named the Japanese Hero Hiro, That's What We're Dealing With")

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Hey if its good enough for Daikatana and Snow Crash, its good enough for Heroes

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Honestly I'm surprised all the 'mystery box' criticisms turned out to be exactly right.

Heroes was more turbofucked by the writer's strike iirc, but then even after they had no excuse was still a dumpster fire.

Heroes got really bad really fast. The first season was fun, but it spiraled way out of control with the dumb circus villains.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



The writer's strike hosed it over a fair bit, but honestly all I think it did was expose the cracks a little sooner.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Horizon Burning posted:

I actually watched Rise of Skywalker the other day and holy God that film was bad. Every single shot and sequence felt like it was playing at 1.2x speed. The loving Greg Grunberg dramatic death. Kylo saying 'ow.' Palpatine shooting lightning into the sky. I AM ALL THE JEDI. Just a horrible film.

I saw it the other day for the first time and one of the things that struck me was that the editing was completely botched in several scenes. When they have that speeder chase and everyone lamely repeats the "they can fly now?" line, I thought the scene cut away to a different one a few times because there were gaps in the scene as long as some of the ones between scenes earlier in the movie. Pretty sad that the movie is so hectic that the only thing that can slow it down is sloppy editing in what is supposed to be frenetic.

The above could have been written better but I'm no master of screenwriting jargon and I'm too tired to bother fixing it up

just like J.J. Abrams, I guess

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


PeterWeller posted:

Finn knows of Han as a general in the Rebellion presumably as part of his indoctrination where Han would be portrayed as a villain who helped bring disorder to the galaxy.

This would be a completely sensible way to write Finn and add some nuance to his backstory but instead he calls Han a "War Hero" lmao

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.

Outside of film geeks like us going "why they gently caress did so much money/labor get flushed down the drain on such a bankrupt project," everybody who has any emotion about the sequels only actually has opinions on TLJ lmao

Finn doing a 360 on his morality in the first like 20 minutes was probably the moment where I completely checked out.

Bogus Adventure posted:

Heroes got really bad really fast. The first season was fun, but it spiraled way out of control with the dumb circus villains.

If Heroes had simply flat ended at the end of S1 it would have been fine, or if later seasons had focused on "normal people getting super powers and having trouble with it" with a new cast each season that also would have been fun. The characters weren't actually any good but if you didn't spend too long with them that's not that big of a deal.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Tulip posted:

Outside of film geeks like us going "why they gently caress did so much money/labor get flushed down the drain on such a bankrupt project," everybody who has any emotion about the sequels only actually has opinions on TLJ lmao

Finn doing a 360 on his morality in the first like 20 minutes was probably the moment where I completely checked out.


If Heroes had simply flat ended at the end of S1 it would have been fine, or if later seasons had focused on "normal people getting super powers and having trouble with it" with a new cast each season that also would have been fun. The characters weren't actually any good but if you didn't spend too long with them that's not that big of a deal.

I never watched this show, but I'm curious to find out if they saved the cheerleader

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Tulip posted:

If Heroes had simply flat ended at the end of S1 it would have been fine, or if later seasons had focused on "normal people getting super powers and having trouble with it" with a new cast each season that also would have been fun. The characters weren't actually any good but if you didn't spend too long with them that's not that big of a deal.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


OctoberCountry posted:

This would be a completely sensible way to write Finn and add some nuance to his backstory but instead he calls Han a "War Hero" lmao

By the time he meets Han, he's already rejected his FO indoctrination, so it's not strange that he'd have a different tune. But I agreed that Finn would benefit from more conflict between what he was taught and what he sees.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



“Han Solo? The terrorist war criminal?”

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Guy A. Person posted:

“Han Solo? The terrorist war criminal?”

*Chewie shrugs apolitically*

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT PEWDIEPIE

(This red text bought on behalf of the Save Lowtax From Crippling Medical Debt Fund.)



Robot Style posted:

*Chewie shrugs apolitically*

chewie doesn't see race

just tender, delicious meat that he must not eat, even if it is not very nice to him or his friends

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Hodgepodge posted:

chewie doesn't see race

just tender, delicious meat that he must not eat, even if it is not very nice to him or his friends

I had a nerd tell me TLJ was promoting veganism because chewie didn’t eat the porg

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009



PeterWeller posted:

By the time he meets Han, he's already rejected his FO indoctrination

Aka by the end of act one, he’s completely finished his character arc for the entire trilogy.

damn horror queefs
Oct 14, 2005

say hello
say hello to the man in the elevator

Kart Barfunkel posted:

Aka by the end of act one, he’s completely finished his character arc for the entire trilogy.

Yeah but still he hadn't yet fallen in love with Rey wait uh Rose um wait Poe no no it was that other former stormtrooper girl who left with Lando and is also canonically his long-lost daughter for no reason UHHH nobody at all I guess????

Kart Barfunkel
Nov 10, 2009



drat horror queefs posted:

Yeah but still he hadn't yet fallen in love with Rey wait uh Rose um wait Poe no no it was that other former stormtrooper girl who left with Lando and is also canonically his long-lost daughter for no reason UHHH nobody at all I guess????

But wait! He’s got something to say! It’s very important! It’s...it’s...

[Roll credits]

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



CelticPredator posted:

I had a nerd tell me TLJ was promoting veganism because chewie didn’t eat the porg
Seriously wtf is it with TLJ that breaks the brains of some people?

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT PEWDIEPIE

(This red text bought on behalf of the Save Lowtax From Crippling Medical Debt Fund.)



mind the walrus posted:

Seriously wtf is it with TLJ that breaks the brains of some people?

at this point not being jj abrams is close enough to good for some people to latch on to it

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I liked it immediately on release and have liked it the most out of any official Star Wars movie since the OT. It's really imperfect but like, the hate it engenders is loving radical to my eyes.

Film Crit Hulk posted:

Behold the following statement from a petition to Lucasfilm to strip episode 8 from the official canon—which I will present without tarring and feathering the name of the petitioner who wrote it—but it so exemplifies the point I want to make in this section. To wit, “Star Wars ep 8: The last Jedi was crowded with unacceptable, infantile, disappointing and downright irritating jokes. These ‘jokes’ made the movie a perfect example of self-degradation. In the upcoming episodes, please do not spoil all the potentially epic Star Wars moments, legendary characters and basically the whole Star Wars Saga with humor every A class movie would be ashamed of. As the biggest and most complex fictional universe so far, it just deserves more than this.” So again, a grown rear end man writing a petition to Lucasfilm to have a movie be stripped from the official canon is saying this should be done because certain jokes are too infantile…

Sometimes, a reflexive moment does not get more perfect. But the truth is that I’m fascinated by these kinds of tonal comments because they tell you a lot about how certain people absorb storytelling. Specifically, how there are whole groups of fans who do not like anything “too silly” in their movies, especially blockbuster films that feature their favorite characters. They will say jokes are “too lame.” And you should definitely let your ears perk up and notice when people use the word “corny” to describe these films because it’s a perfect signifier for what I’m about to talk about. People particularly say it with regards to a filmmaker like Sam Raimi and his Spider-man films. When trying to explain why these innocuous jokes “bother” them so much, they’ll throw out heady comments arguing about an “uneven tone” or something like that. And often they’ll start trying to sound like Mr. Civility, like in the paragraph above where the guy is trying to sound like the most urbane person in the world as he argues over nerd canon. Why, they’re too adult for that silliness!

But it’s all very simple: if the movie feels silly, then *they* feel silly.

And they do not want to feel silly one bit. Make no mistake, a lot of people watch movies and live vicariously through the characters. They go “I’m Luke Skywalker!” or “I’m Spider-man!” and they do this because these movies are really good at making us feel this way. So it’s not just about escape, but an empowerment fantasy. They want to hold a lightsaber or web-sling around New York City. They want to feel awesome. They want to feel badass. But they definitely don’t want to feel like the butt of a joke. It’s exactly why Christopher Nolan endeared a certain kind of superhero fanboy who wanted to dress up their dark affinity for Batman in an intellectual, very serious packaging. While I will certainly go to bat for those films, there is nothing inherently “mature” about this fan approach. As I’ve argued before, most fan posturing has nothing to do with maturity, but instead the desire to shed their kid-like sensibilities and child-like interests, all by catering to juvenile stories.

There’s a reason the Star Wars petitioner personality gets saddled with the “basement dweller” stereotype. It’s not a fair one and probably not even accurate (which is scary, imagining them as full-grown adults with jobs and stuff), but it happens because making those comments are absolutely the tonal equivalent of a self-serious tween boy yelling, “MOM, GET OUT OF MY ROOM, I’M SUPER SERIOUS.” It is always in the desperation to be taken seriously that we make ourselves the joke. But embracing our kid-like sensibilities, along with all the sadness and range life has to offer, is maturity itself. It’s understanding we can be silly and make fun of ourselves just as much as we can be anything else. But this hits roadblocks with a lot of men, which is all part and parcel of a toxic male culture that thinks we cannot show emotion (again, think Batman). This culture thinks showing weaknesses is a form of weakness instead of strength. Here too lies the ugly heart of fandom, for it is often the people who feel weakest that most cling to empowerment fantasies to off-set how they really feel in life. So while we have the romanticized image that it’s an escape for nerdly torment of the ’80s, there is also a dark-side to that expression that sees entertainment as a kind of revenge on life itself.

Now obviously that doesn't cover all of the criticisms of TLJ, or why a lot of people didn't like it. For many people just seeing Luke as a disappointed old hermit was a step too far and I totally respect that although if you hated it you've forever forfeit your right to say you love Star Wars' mythological allusions, because Luke's fate is perfectly in-line with his allusions to King Arthur right down to a toxic nephew and exiling himself to an island . Finn's plot is half-baked and needed a serious rewrite on the script level. Effectively neutering Poe at every turn for the entire movie was definitely a bridge too far in a movie that was already asking a lot from its audience. You can definitely hate the throne room fight choreography. There's definitely big problems.

But read that paragraph and tell me that it doesn't explain more than a bit of why TLJ gets so much hate-- a genuine lack of self-reflection and emotional honesty on the parts of many, many viewers.

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 00:30 on May 30, 2020

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


Kart Barfunkel posted:

Aka by the end of act one, he's completely finished his character arc for the entire trilogy.

Them re-writing TFA so Poe survives pretty much kneecapped Finn's arc

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



I sincerely loved it since I saw it. The Yoda scene won me over and everything clicked into place. Up until then it was alright. Then it was like OHHH. And i just got super into it.

It also did some personal reflection stuff for me that I needed at that time.

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


Depressed hobo Luke rules

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





mind the walrus posted:

I liked it immediately on release and have liked it the most out of any official Star Wars movie since the OT. It's really imperfect but like, the hate it engenders is loving radical to my eyes.


I didn't really like TLJ but I tolerated it, unlike all the other main movies outside the OT, and respect Rian Johnson's efforts even if so many of his ideas just didn't work. One thing I found particularly incongruous was the protracted look into the corrupt underbelly of the military-industrial complex supplying both the First Order and the Alliance. The moral relativism felt really out of place and it wasn't helped by Benicio del Toro's strange character. The hate the movie engendered was ridiculous though, particularly the misogynistic attacks on cast members.

OctoberCountry posted:

Depressed hobo Luke rules

yep, especially since Mark Hamill really disliked that take on the character but put professionalism ahead of his doubts and stole the show

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


Johnson had some interesting ideas, but ultimately seemed too preoccupied with constantly pulling the rug out from under the audience to deliver anything especially coherent or satisfying. It also really hurts that all that subversion ultimately amounts to an ending that says "Your life sucks, but don't worry you still have your Star Wars toys."

Barudak
May 7, 2007



I left TLJ thinking they had no idea what they were doing and that they had spent two films worth of screen time on one films worth of story and that the third movie was gonna have to do a tooooon of work to establish settings and stakes.

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


As someone who mostly likes TLJ, the coordinated media backlash to the fan backlash was absolutely cynical and embarrassing. There's no way that "No Women" re-edit that popped up less than a month after the movie's release and got endless coverage on the big nerd media sites wasn't produced internally at disney.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

OctoberCountry posted:

As someone who mostly likes TLJ, the coordinated media backlash to the fan backlash was absolutely cynical and embarrassing. There's no way that "No Women" re-edit that popped up less than a month after the movie's release and got endless coverage on the big nerd media sites wasn't produced internally at disney.

Nah, that's not their style. They're much more inclined to make big showy statements to distract from the gaping holes, like how endgame had every single female character all appear in one scene because all but one of them is not actually relevant to the plot at all, and they'd rather have the conversation be about misogynists getting mad at that scene than about how irrelevant all the women are for the rest of the movie(s)

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


ungulateman posted:

Nah, that's not their style. They're much more inclined to make big showy statements to distract from the gaping holes

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Barudak posted:

I left TLJ thinking they had no idea what they were doing and that they had spent two films worth of screen time on one films worth of story and that the third movie was gonna have to do a tooooon of work to establish settings and stakes.

If only you'd have foreseen the explicatory possibilities of Fortnite.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

ungulateman posted:

Nah, that's not their style. They're much more inclined to make big showy statements to distract from the gaping holes, like how endgame had every single female character all appear in one scene because all but one of them is not actually relevant to the plot at all, and they'd rather have the conversation be about misogynists getting mad at that scene than about how irrelevant all the women are for the rest of the movie(s)

From what I gather about 90% of women found that scene cringey as hell.


OctoberCountry posted:

Johnson had some interesting ideas, but ultimately seemed too preoccupied with constantly pulling the rug out from under the audience to deliver anything especially coherent or satisfying. It also really hurts that all that subversion ultimately amounts to an ending that says "Your life sucks, but don't worry you still have your Star Wars toys."

Yeah, there's like an almost teenage attitude where he's seemingly just discovered the whole concept of 'subverting expectations' and thinks it's the most cool and clever poo poo ever and they're going to keep doing it until he gets bored.

The whole idea of picking fights with your audience rather than accept criticism, has it ever worked? Mass Effect 3 comes to mind, and that pretty much annihilated the goodwill for what could have been a legendary series.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.



This was cool. I'll give it to this.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



It just seams like Johnson watched TFA and was like okay...it was just a rehash so I guess let me try to have some fun with Star Wars.

Results may very depending on the person but at least it’s better than not doing anything.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



I actually think its worse, really. Its looking at a first film that failed to provide enough context to understand characters motivations and going, yeah lets do more of that and third guy can fix. TLJ is someone being given unlimited budget for a pivotal narrative moment and deciding to spin wheels.

Edit: Its even worse than that because large parts of its narrative is pretending something is happening and then replacing it with the same thing.

Barudak fucked around with this message at 04:37 on May 30, 2020

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Well I guess since I’ve seen ROS I disagree.

Every subversive thing he did made it better because it took the lamest parts of TFA and gave them a chance to become interesting. I hated the parents thing and I hated snoke. And luke being jaded was something I was kind of hoping for when the first rumors of TFA started leaking.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Yea I’m too jaded by how it all played out to really argue what could have been done better, but at the very least having Kylo Ren do what Vader hinted at doing and killing his boss to take over was the best decision in the ST by a lot. Both thematically appropriate while also setting up a new and interesting dynamic for the finale, but it was totally squandered by JJ.

To a lesser extent clearing Luke from the board for the finale to force the new generation to forge their own path was probably also ultimately a smart move.

TremorX
Jan 19, 2001

All Hail Big Hairy Mike



TLJ is the only time I've ever liked Luke as a character

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
how about we just not have the toilet cthulhu

Luke shoulda been even more like Space Zizek.

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