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Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



banned from Starbucks posted:

What even happens to the FO fleet i cant remember. Theyre not even at Exegol are they?

The hastily assembled (as in, they had one day to do the concept art) montage at the end implies that while there was a big civilian fleet at Exegol, other people were suicide bombing the actual First Order military into submission elsewhere across the galaxy.

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Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Robot Style posted:

The hastily assembled (as in, they had one day to do the concept art) montage

lol what


how was this such a trainwreck production??

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

lol what


how was this such a trainwreck production??

That's what happens when you fire your original director in a bizarre reactionary panic toward racist alt-right shitheads that still gave your last mainline movie a billion dollars and made it the #3 selling home release that year, proving that their crying was totally empty and you could just go ahead with your original plan.

But hey, Solo underperformed in the biggest self-fulfilling prophecy in cinema history, so I guess they had to.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

It happened because there was no loving plan. Everything about that trilogy was visuals first and story last. It needed to ape the OT in everything because a bunch of manbabies were still angry about Gungans and podracing.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



The sequel trilogies used the the same design process as FFXIII but didn't manage to fall rear end backwards into a fantastic combat system so its all just junk.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Disney started out with no plan for the sequels, hired a career no-plans-ever guy to start things off, hired a second guy to make a plan, and then fired him after his plan was already put into action so that it'd be really really difficult to switch directions. And this was done with no coordination with the people doing the plans for the not-really-part-of-the-trilogy movies or the guy doing the already popular TV show or the people they were commissioning to write novels or the people making comics or the game studio that they had given exclusive rights to.

Which is a very weird decision considering how the last franchise Disney bought had a grand planner planning things out and even slotting in scenes into movies that were otherwise out of the "main" series to link them into the greater whole. The grand plan was done with 50-year-old characters and 10-30-year-old storylines from the comics as a blueprint, and they ran related storylines in the current comics as a cross-promotion.

It's also a really terrible approach compared to the original EU which was clumsy in its own way, but it had novel authors, comic writers, and videogame developers all playing off of eachother to end up making a bigger universe while RPG handbooks filled up the spare room. It wasn't even particularly consistent or coordinated collaboration, because there were some works that failed and got ignored.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





SlothfulCobra posted:

Which is a very weird decision considering how the last franchise Disney bought had a grand planner planning things out and even slotting in scenes into movies that were otherwise out of the "main" series to link them into the greater whole. The grand plan was done with 50-year-old characters and 10-30-year-old storylines from the comics as a blueprint, and they ran related storylines in the current comics as a cross-promotion.

I would need to check a calendar or something and I'm far too lazy to, but I wonder if decisions about Star Wars being plan-less might have been made around the time that things were falling apart internally on that Marvel plan because of Perlmutter and a bunch of major leads were thinking about walking after Age of Ultron because of it.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



They kind of had a plan - a bunch of executives from Lucasfilm got together in 2014 to hash out their loose ideas for where things would go after 7, but the only things they ever released from that meeting were:

  • Rey is probably not related to anyone important, but gets adopted by the Skywalkers over the course of the series
  • Kylo Ren gets redeemed at the end
  • Leia does something to help redeem Kylo

Other than maybe what the deal with Snoke is, or where they want Finn & Poe to end up by the end, there's not really much that you'd want a bunch of non-writers & Dave Filoni to come up with anyway. The idea of the Sequels having each movie outlined from the start requires the outlines to be made by corporate executives, since they're the only ones that would be consistent within the company across all three movies.

The Prequels had an outline in the sense that they had a specific endpoint to reach with all the characters, but it's not like Lucas was thinking about how the Clone War would start when he was doing Episode I, or even how it would end when he was doing II.

Return of the Jedi suffered from Lucas actually thinking ahead, since he got sick of doing Star Wars movies and had to cram all the sequel bait from Empire into the last movie, resulting in Incest Luke.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Barudak posted:

The sequel trilogies used the the same design process as FFXIII but didn't manage to fall rear end backwards into a fantastic combat system so its all just junk.

I will grant that XIII's combat system is unique, but I hated how little input you had about it.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Bogus Adventure posted:

I will grant that XIII's combat system is unique, but I hated how little input you had about it.

You have a more control then people tend to think about (early action execution is a big deal alongside atb autorefresh), but ultimately its a radical shift in how a battle is managed so if it doesn't work I get it but disagree.

The sequels don't even have that. Theres nothing in them for me to hold onto. Everything is a mess at best and actively, purposefully misleading in order to score cheap points at worst and frequently. It is a franchise built on battles that can't put in the effort to show them or make them sensible.

The most positive thing about the films is that Ian McDirmid delivers absolutely every single one of his horrendous lines with such panache you can let them flow over you without getting bogged down by them.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Barudak posted:

You have a more control then people tend to think about (early action execution is a big deal alongside atb autorefresh), but ultimately its a radical shift in how a battle is managed so if it doesn't work I get it but disagree.

Yeah, I did like that they tried taking risks with the combat system. It's just that having it follow the odd gambit system of XII felt like the series was taking more and more control away from the player.

Then XV came around and lol

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Bogus Adventure posted:

Yeah, I did like that they tried taking risks with the combat system. It's just that having it follow the odd gambit system of XII felt like the series was taking more and more control away from the player.

Then XV came around and lol

Lightning Returns did something partway worthwhile with XIII's combat system, but by that point people were so checked out on that sub-series that only the diehards were still around to actually appreciate it.

At least Final Fantasy VII Remake took what worked from XV's combat and build a good game around it.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Sanguinia posted:

That's what happens when you fire your original director in a bizarre reactionary panic toward racist alt-right shitheads

Rian Johnson backed out of Star Wars 9 sometime before 2015, way before TLJ was released. It was Colin Treverrow that backed out in 2017, and that was probably more because his movie Book of Henry was a massive bomb than because of the TLJ backlash. Bringing on JJ Abrams because of the backlash makes sense, but there wasn't any alt-right clamor against Johnson while he was on SW9, or against Treverrow at all.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

lol what


how was this such a trainwreck production??

Abrams probably spent more time figuring out how to best stomp out the Finn/asian chick romance

he really went out of his way to repudiate everything from TLJ

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Cease to Hope posted:

It was Colin Treverrow that backed out in 2017, and that was probably more because his movie Book of Henry was a massive bomb than because of the TLJ backlash. Bringing on JJ Abrams because of the backlash makes sense,

Abrams replaced Trevorrow 3 months before TLJ came out - would there have even been any backlash at that point?

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Barudak posted:

You have a more control then people tend to think about (early action execution is a big deal alongside atb autorefresh), but ultimately its a radical shift in how a battle is managed so if it doesn't work I get it but disagree.

The sequels don't even have that. Theres nothing in them for me to hold onto. Everything is a mess at best and actively, purposefully misleading in order to score cheap points at worst and frequently. It is a franchise built on battles that can't put in the effort to show them or make them sensible.

The most positive thing about the films is that Ian McDirmid delivers absolutely every single one of his horrendous lines with such panache you can let them flow over you without getting bogged down by them.

Alright then wiseguy, riddle me this. How would YOU fix the combat system in the force awakens

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



FunkyAl posted:

Alright then wiseguy, riddle me this. How would YOU fix the combat system in the force awakens

Everybody fans out and starts marching in place when they land on the deathstar deathstar, and then they all move one at time, FFT style.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

FunkyAl posted:

Alright then wiseguy, riddle me this. How would YOU fix the combat system in the force awakens

I'd run something like FFG's Star Wars rules, but maybe start off without giving the GM's bffs an extra 300 xp compared to the rest of the party.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I'd actually cut out like half of the fights in Force Awakens, because I feel like it's paced more like a videogame than a movie, but since you don't have a controller, they're just weird breaks in the plot where you kinda lose track of things.

Also it detracts from the intensity of the threat for the main characters to just wind up being able to turn around and slaughter half the enemy attack group halfway through the movie. Like horror games are scarier when the main character can't just stand and fight against any threat.

Robot Style posted:

Other than maybe what the deal with Snoke is, or where they want Finn & Poe to end up by the end, there's not really much that you'd want a bunch of non-writers & Dave Filoni to come up with anyway. The idea of the Sequels having each movie outlined from the start requires the outlines to be made by corporate executives, since they're the only ones that would be consistent within the company across all three movies.

They could've chosen to hire some kind of creative to a high-level position to stay on for the whole run of the Sequels and maintain some kind of coherence of vision between movies, but they chose not to.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


SlothfulCobra posted:

I'd actually cut out like half of the fights in Force Awakens, because I feel like it's paced more like a videogame than a movie, but since you don't have a controller, they're just weird breaks in the plot where you kinda lose track of things.

Also it detracts from the intensity of the threat for the main characters to just wind up being able to turn around and slaughter half the enemy attack group halfway through the movie. Like horror games are scarier when the main character can't just stand and fight against any threat.


They could've chosen to hire some kind of creative to a high-level position to stay on for the whole run of the Sequels and maintain some kind of coherence of vision between movies, but they chose not to.

I think all of the 20 minute scene where they meet Han and then out of nowhere bad guys capture them, but oh wait theres a goo monster loose on the ship, then they fight the goo monster, then the first order shows up could be cut and the movie would lose nothing.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Bogus Adventure posted:

I'd run something like FFG's Star Wars rules, but maybe start off without giving the GM's bffs an extra 300 xp compared to the rest of the party.

gently caress that. D6 Star Wars system is superior in every way.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Up Circle posted:

I think all of the 20 minute scene where they meet Han and then out of nowhere bad guys capture them, but oh wait theres a goo monster loose on the ship, then they fight the goo monster, then the first order shows up could be cut and the movie would lose nothing.

The Raid dudes were very thankful they got those tiny roles to promote their martial arts, god bless them.

To think that we could have had the Raid dudes having a fight in Star Wars, though... Like... Mad Dog vs. Emo Vader...

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Robot Style posted:

Abrams replaced Trevorrow 3 months before TLJ came out - would there have even been any backlash at that point?

Aside from the already present undercurrent of "little white cuck ball" wackos who'd go on to capitalize on the outrage The Last Jedi would inspire to catch and radicalize as many newly cracked nerd brains as they could, no. The Rise of Skywalker turned out how it did because Tervorrow getting bounced right before TLJ came out led to all his pre-production work on Duel of the Fates getting chucked into a woodchipper on his way out the door. This mean that The Rise of Skywalker spent basically its entire production cycle under the cloud of nerdrage The Last Jedi kicked up, and that helped influence the film to its ultimate detriment.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Still, Abrams had to pitch the movie to Bob Iger on the day TLJ premiered, so the major story beats were already decided before any real nerdrage started to bubble up about it.

For example, Rose's elimination from the movie was, unfortunately, because Abrams and Terrio decided that she was the most expendable main character. They wanted to have someone that could stay with Leia at the base to anchor her re-used scenes to the present, but it couldn't be someone who would be missed when they inevitably had to start cutting scenes in order to focus on the VFX for the ones they needed to nail.

Luke catching the lightsaber definitely might've been influenced by TLJ's reaction - the island sequence in 9 was apparently reshot several months after principal photography ended, so they would have had time to react to the discourse about it by then.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



FunkyAl posted:

Alright then wiseguy, riddle me this. How would YOU fix the combat system in the force awakens

All fights in the film replaced with a round of a children's card game

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

CainFortea posted:

gently caress that. D6 Star Wars system is superior in every way.

Never played it, but I'd guess it's probably better than WotC's Saga edition (which sucks balls and was broken as poo poo)

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Barudak posted:

All fights in the film replaced with a round of a children's card game

Now we're playing...with the heart of the cards!

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

FunkyAl posted:

Now we're playing...with the heart of the cards!

Imagine Rey stumbling upon an ancient Jedi holocron. She assembles it, and suddenly is possessed by the Force spirit of an ancient Jedi master. When the Jedi Master assumes control, she transforms into a hybrid form of both herself and the Master.

And that Master...

Looks...

Like...

This...

Barudak
May 7, 2007



FunkyAl posted:

Now we're playing...with the heart of the cards!

"Use the force, luke" <Luke top-decks blackhole>

But also I'd probably have killed Poe in the movie instead of falling in love with the dashing rogue and hastily rewriting my film around him. Would have had the storm trooper who shouts "traitor" be Phasma so she at least does something. Definitey wouldn't have death star tech or a self imploding sun-planet combo that comes off as weightless instead of awe inspiring.

Definitely wouldn't have had whatever the hell the dogfight over the anti-union piece of poo poo was supposed to convey other than repurposing footage from something else.

Barudak fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 27, 2021

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

So much of the dumb trilogy could have made sense if they had focused on showing rather than telling. Show the New Republic. Show them being demilitarized or readopting the Republic's "judicial forces" rather than an official army/navy. Have Luke be missing WITHOUT a map, and have Rey and Finn's starting story arc involve finding clues to hunt him down. loving use R2 instead of BB-8 because then you have a constant character who could help guide the newbies.

Imagine if TFA had Rey finding a crashed X-Wing with a busted astromech. She repairs the astromech and finds out that it is R2. She runs into Finn via the same story arc, and they set out on a hunt to find Luke Skywalker. Hell, R2 could even have Luke's ROTJ lightsaber still on him. You could have another story with Leia trying to convince the New Republic to take the First Order/Imperial Remnant seriously. Han could still get merk'd, maybe in the process of trying to save the New Republic from the First Order's terrorist attack. You could even keep Poe, but just have him as a Wedge Antilles rather than the Goku of starfighter aces.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Bogus Adventure posted:

Imagine Rey stumbling upon an ancient Jedi holocron. She assembles it, and suddenly is possessed by the Force spirit of an ancient Jedi master. When the Jedi Master assumes control, she transforms into a hybrid form of both herself and the Master.

And that Master...

Looks...

Like...

This...





I'd be lying if I said I didn't kinda wanna see it happen.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Robot Style posted:

Abrams replaced Trevorrow 3 months before TLJ came out - would there have even been any backlash at that point?

oh, I didn't know Abrams was confirmed at that point. even more proof it's not the TLJ backlash!

Bogus Adventure posted:

Never played it, but I'd guess it's probably better than WotC's Saga edition (which sucks balls and was broken as poo poo)

it was overcomplicated, particularly in how you resolved any challenging task, but it supported the sort of scum and villainy scoundrel play better than d20/Saga ever did.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Any star wars system that isn't resolve by shaking and rolling a double handful of d6 sucks by definition.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


CainFortea posted:

Any star wars system that isn't resolve by shaking and rolling a double handful of d6 sucks by definition.

But what kind of D6?

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


A poo poo I rolled all 3p0's again.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

I got a gripload of crits with my d2s...

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


SlothfulCobra posted:

But what kind of D6?



Hey these aren't D6s!!

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Hey these aren't D6s!!

Those are D6s *swipes left*

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


SlothfulCobra posted:

But what kind of D6?



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CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





SlothfulCobra posted:

But what kind of D6?



Not d6

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