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OctoberCountry posted:It absolutely did and I still laugh whenever I see someone post some unreadable wall of text about how it ruins the lore or whatever Being genuinely shocking and a great visual isn't in contradiction with breaking the setting. It's pretty much exactly the same thing as what JJ does with abusing the plot and setting to make a cool scene work, just better executed and without being repeated a bunch of times in a row like in ROS.
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May 30, 2020 18:52
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:
The reliance on prophecy is, in my mind, literally the worst part of the sequel trilogy. It is used in ways that are both extremely stupid and extremely lazy. Leia decides not to become a Jedi to...save Ben. Apparently. That was all they came up with for motivation? And it was a throwaway to boot! That *didn't work*! And the way that she 'saves Ben' involves her using force powers. Extending his life, what, an hour? This comes AFTER Ben murders his dad, murders her friends and war comrades and tries to murder her. How do you square this divine-grade turning of the cheek with Leia's other personality as a revolutionary firebrand and fighter against injustice? You cannot. It doesn't work. Maybe next time the Force could issue a useful prophecy, like 'don't enroll your kid in Uncle Luke's Discount Jedi School'. Then there is Luke almost killing Kylo because of... a force prophecy! One that is so tangled up with cause-effect timey-wimey bullshit (Luke would never have attacked Kylo if it weren't for the force prophecy, Kylo would never have turned evil if Luke hadn't attacked him) as to become nonsensical. And this is Luke, who is a champion class turner of the cheek, it is the apotheosis of his character journey in ROTJ. If there's even a single person in the galaxy who wouldn't murder Space Hitler in the crib, it's Luke Skywalker. So in my mind despite the good job Hamill does with Luke-as-written in TLJ, the character has little connection to the Luke of the original trilogy other than occupying a convenient mentor-shaped hole in the plot. And they have to use a prophecy to bludgeon that into place. quote:Honestly, I'm not sure I have a single bad thing to say about Kylo. Adam Driver carried the films. The character is great but the films never knew how to handle him. TFA paints him as a powerful child, TLJ paints him as a furious warlord, TRoS makes him Emperor but also stupid. Isn't this a little contradictory? A big reason his character is so fragmented across the films is that his character is difficult to handle and difficult to fit in with the rest of the cast. If Adam Driver is carrying the sequel trilogy, it's coming at the cost of mulching the plot and the rest of the cast under the weight of Kylo. Though you can draw a direct parallel between Kylo Ren being a great character that doesn't fit into the films and all those 'Trailer Moment' action scenes that were bludgeoned in equally poorly. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 15:50
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teagone posted:The Holdo/Poe dynamic is just basic compartmentalization, i.e., information security. I don't see anything wrong with what Holdo did. The reason she withheld information from Poe is because she knows his type: brash, arrogant, foolhardy, etc., why risk handing sensitive information over to someone like that when that person might just go do something stupid with that information? The irony is Poe does stupid things regardless and inadvertently ends up leaking the plan anyways, lmao. And who suffers for it? Holdo, who has to sacrifice her own life because Poe couldn't handle being out of the loop. Holdo was following protocol to ensure the safety of everyone onboard, but Poe was just being a basic bitch about the whole situation. The better question to ask, imo, is what reason is there for Poe to know the details of such a crucial operation? The guy is a glorified grunt imo, so what use is there in him knowing the escape plan? Poe is not a glorified grunt. He's the lead pilot, who in TLJ appears to be more in charge of the Resistance than either Leia or Holdo - even if you ignore that Poe is personally 75% of the Resistance's combat power thanks to his marvel superhero piloting skills. Saying that he doesn't deserve to know is also in direct contradiction to him being groomed for leadership. And the movie does little to establish that there might be a spy or other such problems in the Resistance that warrants secrecy, even when it would be easy.
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Jun 18, 2020 17:10
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Zoran posted:I think an under discussed part of the sequels is how bad the starfighter combat is in each and every one of them. I think TLJ is actually the worst on that front, with Poe skating around doing whatever he wants on one end, then Kylo returning the favor in his three-man attack on the resistance fleet One of the weaknesses of the ST is they've lost the connection to old war movies that animated Lucas's films. Part of that was that every fighter was a threat that had to be taken seriously, cuz that was the pattern of those movies. In contrast, Poe (and Kylo) are more treated as marvel superheros beating up mooks than they are treated as expert pilots conducting coordinated maneuvers. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 19:41
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Sanguinia posted:"And you can make it strong enough even to make them forget reason. You see when you say that Cary Grant can’t possibly be killed so early in the film, that’s the application of reason. But you’re not permitted to reason. Because the film should be stronger than reason. Hitchcock made very psychological movies. People could make emotional connections to the characters and get caught up in the events of the film. Part of what makes that work is that the characters made emotional sense and their emotional decision making made sense from scene to scene and was built up over the course of the films. Rose going all "Save what you love" just came out of left field. And with Poe, the audience's emotional sympathy was with him and not with Holdo - a character coded as a foolish martinet more interested in rules than success. RJ was apparently trying to subvert tropes - heroic sacrifice on one hand, plucky rebellious hero on the other - without bother to lay the emotional groundwork for it. This results in a jarring experience for the audience that is only papered over cuz the movie has reached its climax and events are moving quickly. I mean when Hitchcock was talking about reason in that scene, he was talking about the audience's meta-knowledge that a Hollywood superstar wasn't going to die in the opening scenes. He wasn't giving carte blanche for the events of a film to not hang together or anything.
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Jun 18, 2020 21:10
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despite being a TLJ hater, I do agree that RJ would have done well being handed his own Star Wars thing rather than mainline.Some Goon posted:Blowing up the first death star would be enough to make you a hero, considering that it singlehandedly saved the alliance and they held an award ceremony and everything, so while I don't disagree that the mythologizing of the OT cast is a meta action, there's good reason for him to be seen as a war hero. Or would be if said war had accomplished anything. I think its easy to skip over blowing up the first Death Star, at least for viewers... Aside from the medal ceremony Luke never appears to be treated as a galactic hero in the OT. The ST treats the loving Knights of Ren with more awe than Luke ever got in episodes 5/6.
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Jun 19, 2020 16:58
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Maybe this is the Disneydome
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Jun 20, 2020 03:11
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lmfao look at this scrub who doesnt know about shields
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Sep 8, 2020 21:27
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I remember a lot of that with TFA, cuckball and all. I don't think there was a lot of that with TLJ other than preemptive grifting by people who got popular by being outraged by TFA.
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Sep 14, 2020 02:15
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SlothfulCobra posted:I guess theoretically time itself is relative and moves at different speeds throughout the galaxy, but that's not really the intention of the movies. Perhaps the lesson is that if you want audiences to skip over your timeline problems, all you really have to do is not draw explicit attention to your timeline. The ticking time bomb is an easy way to create tension, but used lazily this is the result. You gotta keep a tight control on your timeline if its going to be your central plot. But who can expect Star Wars with its unlimited budget to be up to the standards of cinematic masterpieces like 24?
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Dec 10, 2020 20:08
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babu frik was a triumph of a small critter with big eyes triggering peoples baby reflex over the producers making the character or scene actually good disney learned from this and made a whole series with the same premise
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Jan 10, 2021 04:06
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They don't really say it explicitly but the dreadnought was described as a 'fleet killer' and had big long range guns, so it kind of had to die for the logic of 'we're outside their range' to work in the long chase scene. At least within the movie as released. Though.... they could have taken the dreadnought out of the movie entirely and just had Snokes ship in from the start; the bombing run didn't change anything. Like they took out the big scary ship and it immediately got replaced with a bigger ship. The only plot relevance the bombing run had was for Poe's characterization which as noted got severely undermined. Even all the rebel bombers getting destroyed didn't change anything since kylo blew up the launch bays later on.
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Jan 12, 2021 06:27
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snoke should've been the last surviving youngling i stole this but i'm running with it
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Jan 12, 2021 15:42
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I'm not sure Snoke actually does anything except indulge in his hobby of molesting teenagers. By dissolving the Senate in ANH the Emperor does more than Snoke in a movie the Emperor isn't even in. Snoke's problem stems from that he's just a backup character for Kylo Ren, one that lets Kylo be a rescuable bad boy whose being forced to do bad things instead of a hosed up serial killer. He's the Cobra Commander to the Emperor's Space Hitler, except Cobra Commander actually does things and can explain where he gets his stuff.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:55
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teagone posted:Ignoring the PT exists, how would you rate OT Emperor as a villain, then? Where did he get all his stuff? I think part of the issue people have with Snoke is there's not another prequel trilogy for the sequels to explain how Snoke got all his poo poo/came into power. The expectation of characterization isn't fair when someone like Sheev had a whole other trilogy to build up his character that we see in the OT. The Emperor didn't need the Prequel Trilogy to work as a villain. Everything that happened in the PT was already known to you by implication in the OT. You already knew he was Space Hitler. You already knew that he built the Galactic Empire out of the Old Republic. You already knew he was a powerful Sith who corrupted one of the best Jedi to be his henchman. I mean, we don't even call him Palpatine, we still just call him the Emperor, because the character was established more in the OT than in the PT despite him being a side character in the OT. In very important ways the Emperor and the Empire are the same. It is his creation and everything about the Empire reflects the Emperor. We know where he got his stuff because we can all fill in the blanks when people start tossing around words like Empire and showing you how this Empire is occupying even barely livable deserts like Tatooine. The Emperor's death in ROTJ is also the death of the Empire - they are symbolically and thematically linked, right down to both dying at DS2's reactor. Snoke's death is completely meaningless in the movie in which it happens, even ignoring ROS's revisions... his death isn't even the climax of the scene it happens in. It changes nothing for the First Order or the Galaxy. That's how little he matters, despite being easily the most powerful space wizard we had seen to date. Snoke didn't need additional movies, he needed a role and a purpose other than enabling Kylo Ren to avoid responsibility for his own actions. He needed to mean something to the First Order, and the First Order needed to mean something itself. Even ROS' "Snoke as Puppet" could have worked. "The rabble needed an Emperor...so we gave them one." something like that. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 08:34
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The first order demonstrably doesn't give a poo poo about Luke. All their resources are oriented against the resistance and the republic, after which it turns out that actually you don't need a superweapon to keep the Galaxy in line with fear. ( Kind of a strange position, considering.) Luke also clearly doesn't give a poo poo about the First Order, at any point. The ST transforms him from an ideologue to a self obsessed shitter who only is roused by danger to his direct family. Since JJ had no idea what the first order should be the films are hopelessly confused from the start.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:19
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Blue milk gags are fun and all but he kind does Jack and poo poo and is objectively terrible to his family. Until a redemptive act washes all that away or something? Like father like son smh
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Jan 14, 2021 15:34
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Barudak posted:Here: one of the more amusing points in the EU is that Luke's academies got blown up, infiltrated, raided, subverted or kicked out so often he eventually just said gently caress it and built a Jedi Academy Spaceship
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Jan 14, 2021 18:01
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Karloff posted:Starkiller base is a deeply unoriginal threat, but, the light of the sun being snuffed out leading to the darkness going over Kylo's face just before he kills Han is a legitimately great moment. JJ has a legitimate talent for seizing on or creating visually intriguing scenes. Unfortunately he has no idea how to make those scenes happen organically or how to construct the film so the scenes make sense or have emotional heft or anything. S'why Mystery Boxes have worked so well for him, the promise that there's some explanation for all the questions he raises helps keep audiences engaged while he works his magics. Until the sequel or next season inevitably disappoints for its inability to resolve those questions.
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Jan 17, 2021 02:27
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RBA Starblade posted:Someone's idea of them all being ghost ships crewed by stormtrooper ghosts in broken hosed up armor fueled by Sheev was way radder he's an all powerful wizard anyway, why not. Bring things full circle: Have him resurrect the Jakku fleet
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Mar 25, 2021 02:50
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