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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





My partner and I saw ROS a few weeks ago, and he really liked it, to my surprise, and vastly preferred it to TLJ. He thinks RJ really hosed up the narrative direction of the series and if the ideas and plot threads in ROS had been given more time to grow the end result would have been a lot more harmonious. He's the kind of guy that views films as a part of a greater extended universe, and is fine with important details relevant to the plot or story being lodged in a comic book or video game somewhere


There's certainly a bit to unpack there. IMO, as individual movies in a vacuum, despite being a terrible film TLJ is the best of the ST by dint of trying to not be derivative of Star Wars, and aspiring to create something original, even if hamfistedly and ineptly. But I think having two directors with opposite takes on SW really hurt the overall...call it narrative cohesion, of the trilogy.

JJ was clearly not interested in recreating the wheel. He wanted, for lack of a better phrase, a theme park experience. Come watch the new generation of rebels fight the empire, full of lightsabers and nostalgia, look, the millenial falcon, isn't that cool?!
RJ wanted to make an actual movie, and welp, turns out those two approaches didn't mesh. It certainly didn't help that RJ relegated Finn to a glorified extra and got rid of JJs mystery boxes (that presumably were meant to have a payoff of some sort that now never happened).

Either commit to the theme park experience, or try and do something original with the setting, don't half rear end that poo poo.

There's a lot that can be said for the various ways the three ST films suck, but if they'd written out some sort of direction or plan it would have gone a long way to smoothing out the uneven experience of the ST.

Not to absolve JJ in any way, his movie was a whole different kind of mess, especially the Luke plot. I do wonder though, how much executive meddling there was. Finns role becoming smaller and less important each film almost surely feels like such a decision.

McCloud fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 12, 2020

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Ghost Leviathan posted:

If Cyborg in Justice League is any indication, black people's plots are usually the first to go when the execs want cuts and changes.

They also cut out black Iris West. Weird coincidence

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Was the choice of hair color a coincidence? If not, what did they want to convey with that choice?

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Bogus Adventure posted:

Never forget that Amylin Holdo's homeworld is this:


I get what the writers were trying, but geez. It's like GOOP the Planet.

This is really just the worst. Yikes.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





It's like white privilege.txt. A world full of yoga soccer moms drinking tea, reciting dumb poetry and eating only vegan soy products.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Grendels Dad posted:

It's like they are openly baiting chuds into attacking the character, which on the one hand is super funny and makes me wish Holdo was the main character of the ST, and on the other hand is unfortunate because you can't ever say something negative about the character without being put into the chud camp by people who liked the movie and feel they need to defend it against the meanies.

I find I am ill equipped to properly formulate why this pisses me off so much. Like yeah, they're obviously using the pink hair to piss off the chud contingent, and that's good and great, but it's equally clear it's only hollow pandering to score brownie points with the fans. Performative wokeness is the phrase, I think? The same reason they marketed Finn as having a big role and then savagely slashed his character arc and screen time, and how Rey is just a hollow empty character. It's all just a kabuki theatre so they seem progressive without actually doing anything progressive, and reading about that bullshit Soccer mom planet really just drove the point home how cynical it all is.

It also doesn't help that the movie tries to tell the audience how to feel about Holdo (she was clearly right and Poe was clearly being a dumbass for not following orders) instead of actually showing and convincing the audience that she was right. But then again, she needed to be secretive because that's the basis for sending Finn out to the Casino planet (you know, instead of doing something interesting with him rather than have him freeing horses instead of children).


mind the walrus posted:

You're really not wrong.

I mean, Han Solo is the big reason Star Wars 1977 helps make a lot of the weirder stuff go down. Borrowing heavily from Moviebob's "Really that Good" on Star Wars '77, he points out that Han Solo is brazenly contemporary and enters into the movie at the weirdest point (Mos Eisley) as if to say 'Hey you're not on-board with Jedi or funky robots? That's cool. Star Wars also has dudes like Han Solo who is the coolest guy you've ever seen and he's having fun."

And Oscar Isaac is absolutely the right guy to embody that kind-of character and I really liked how he was this spiritual son of Han and Leia far more than Kylo/Ben was.

But yeah... by the end of ROTS Poe is literally just a Han Solo xerox and it suuuuuuuuucks

Well sure, and it would have been fine if he'd been a supporting character to Finn and Rey's main characters, but instead he replaced Finn as the main character in TLJ and ROS, because no one could be arsed to give the black guy anything interesting to do (aside from vaguely hinting at him hooking up with two minority characters so that Rey can skype gently caress kylo)

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





lol

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





As one of those that dislike the film, it's annoying that the aforementioned bag of dicks poisoned the discourse with their whining about women actresses and perceived sjw agendas.

Have one woman with pink hair in a position of authority and they throw a hissy fit. loving snowflakes

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





teagone posted:

The hero characterization in TLJ is some of the strongest in the franchise imo. Iconoclast Luke? Amazing path to take the character that I thought was executed perfectly. Radicalized revolutionary Finn? That's such an inspired storyline: defected stormtrooper, turned resistance fighter, now knows the truth behind the war he was raised to fight in and it burns his soul. Love that. Rose being emblematic of the oppressed/impoverished struggle? Her character simply existing opened the door to perfectly embellish a strong narrative through-line in the SW universe; the embodiment of working class folk in the form of a space mechanic (Rose) and a space janitor (Finn) being primed to lead a galaxy-wide revolution against a fascist regime owns something fierce. Such a shame that was never realized. Poe's arc is probably the weakest relative to everyone else's in TLJ, but I have no issues with how his story was handled. Cocky and arrogant pilot who romanticizes war and heroism is brought back down to earth works well enough for me.

And then you have Rey going further on her monomythic journey, learning hard truths and deliberately crossing paths with Kylo Ren who she feels and knows is ripe for redemption. AND for a fleeting moment, she feels she has drawn the good in Ben Solo out to thwart a common threat? Rey's story in TLJ is easily my favorite, and I love how its intertwined with Ben's. Though, the best thing about the development of Rey's character in TLJ was that while everyone speculated the story would reveal she was a Skywalker, a Kenobi, or a Palpatine, etc., that she came from a bloodline strong in the Force, Rian Johnson said no; Rey is strong because she's just Rey. And she is enough. I can't really put into words just how disappointed I was with TROS turning Rey into a vessel for nostalgia. JJ and co regressing all of Rey's experience and growth from TFA through TLJ, trading all that in for nostalgic shenanigans? Just, lmao.

Someone upthread said something about how liking or disliking the film on personal grounds and because of its technical merits are two separate things. You can dislike a film while acknowledging it's still a good film. My go to example is Shazam. Hate it, but it's a fun campy superhero film that's well made.

I dislike TLJ on both personal and technical levels. Personal, because I strongly dislike the direction they took Luke in. I think it's deeply unsatisfying that not only did the ST effectively undo the big victory at Endor, it turned the old heroes into the equivalent of alcoholic has beens, losers and child murderers. But fine, it's a valid choice to go that routek even if i personally hate it.

Where it falls down, for me, is that the movie is also poorly executed. The core of the movie is the Luke-Rey-Kylo conflict. All that other poo poo about casinos and mysoginist admirals is just padding out the time, really. You can tell because this is the only part of the film that kinda works, the Luke-Rey bit in particular. The problem is that the parts that don't work are like 2/3ds of the film.

Poe's conflict with Holdo is dumb. They're being massacred and the Captains response is to do nothing? Oh but it turns out she actually had a plan, and if Poe had only followed orders things would have worked out just fine, he should have trusted the leadership, because they know what they're doing! But the captain couldn't just say that they had a plan or were working on a solution or anything though, because of...reasons? The "your leaders know best and you should shut up and follow orders" theme is reinforced by Leia and Holdo being angry at Poe for...saving all their lives by destroying that super-ship?

The problem with the Casino thing is that the whole point of it seems to be to say "Rich people want the war to keep going because they profit" and then....they don't loving do anything with it? The smuggler doesn't think picking a side matters because it's the illusion of choice, it's all the same, but guess what, our brave plucky heroes say, centrist liberalism status quo is better...than fascism. woooah, really blew our minds there, RJ! It's such an utterly stupid plot point because it's never going to go anywhere interesting. Disney isn't going to follow that up with a movie where Finn organises a revolution that kills the rich and uses their assets for the betterment of the galaxy or whatever. It's half baked, poorly thought out and a clear indicator they had no idea what to do with FN, and I really dislike it. Oh, they also have enslaved sentient horses and slave children. Our heroes take a stand against slavery by freeing the horses. gently caress them kids though. You can tell Finn is a force sensitive because screwing kids over is a proud jedi tradition.

Then they have Rose stop Finn from his suicide run while also having Holdo make a suicide run. Ok, sure, why not.

The movie lacks conviction. Just when you think something interesting might happen, it pulls back to comfortable and boring

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Right. Barudak nailed it when he says that what the movie tells and what it shows are two different things., And that's where the unevenness comes from.

I feel that if they'd cut the Poe plot they could have fleshed out Finns story a lot better

Oh hey, the above post is fantastic and is like a better structured checklist of my issues with the ST. Great post

McCloud fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Jun 18, 2020

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





There was absolutely no risk in Black Panther or infinity war, and the only envelope being pushed was the one with all the money it made for being very much not risky.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Social justice warrior Mod forcing his robust socialist agenda down our throats

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005






See?! Again with the subversive feminist agenda slapping me in the face!

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





I think it really says something that wearing a mask to protect yourself from a pandemic, on doctors advice, is now something controversial in the US.Culture wars has hosed that country up beyond fixing

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Cease to Hope posted:

My least favorite part of TROS is where Rey looks at the camera and says, "Masks are for stupid baby nerds."

I forget, is that before or after she passionately kisses Proud Boy Ren

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Cease to Hope posted:

Clearly you don't understand the deeper thematic meaning behind that, so there's no possible way I could explain it to you.
I thought you were joking, and then I remembered she actually does that.

Boy that didn't age well

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Star Wars? Heh, more like Culture wars

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





That interview with Boyega is illuminating in that regard. It feels as if there were a lot of decisions being made over the heads of the directors, and that JJ and RJ might not be as responsible for the sloppy movies as assumed

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





nine-gear crow posted:

The only thing I hold JJ responsible for really is Rise of Skywalker's lovely script. He's got a long history of half-assing stuff like that, so it was to be expected on some level, and hiring someone like Chris Terrio, with a long history of equally lovely scripts to be your co-writer wasn't exactly a winning move either. Then again, who knows if JJ tapped Terrio himself after Duel of the Fates was turfed, or if he was forced upon him by LucasFilm mandate.

Either way, in the Hierarchy of Sympathy for each individual person involved in the Sequel Trilogy, Abrams kind of slides in near the bottom at this point. He's the one person kind of guaranteed to come out of it completely okay.

There's only so much you can do when focus group studio mandates demand you rewrite a script for the umpteenth time on a short deadline, and if Boyega is defending JJ I'm inclined to give him some slack.

Some, mind you, but not much. TFA was still poo poo.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





mind the walrus posted:

Boyega also didn't like TLJ as much, which tells me that while he's right on a lot of things he's also one of those people who was probably assuming that Finn was gonna become a Jedi or some nonsense.

I'm sorry, but the number of grown-rear end adults who insist that Star Wars be this "deep, meaningful mythic franchise" getting aggressively angry at the one movie in the new trilogy with the balls to even attempt to be deep, meaningful, or mythic is never gonna stop being funny.

Or maybe he was unhappy about being sidelined almost entirely in TLJ in a dumb sidestory that was ultimately pointless? Also


OctoberCountry posted:

Framing Boyega's very legitimate criticisms of Disney and Lucasfilm as sour grapes over not getting to play a jedi seems kinda lovely and condescending

This. Maybe it's time we stop assuming black people complaining about being treated like poo poo by the entertainment industry is all about sour grapes diva behavior, hm?

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





2house2fly posted:

I don't know how much screen time Finn got compared to the other characters in ep8 but I don't think it was so much less that he would be considered sidelined

It's not about quantity, but quality. Like he says, all the subtletly and nuance went to Driver and Ridley, but they had gently caress all idea about what to do with him, or Tran

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Robot Style posted:

According to Johnson, Rose was created after he found that the Finn/Poe adventure he originally conceived wouldn't have any tension between the two, and he needed a better foil for Finn. How he managed to put the poster boy Resistance hero together with the indoctrinated Stormtrooper deserter and not find a way for them to conflict with each other is beyond me, though.

Right. It's worth noting that Poe, the dude that was supposed to be killed off in the first film but spared because he tested well with focus groups, got a more important arc than the supposed protagonist of TFA. It's hosed.

nine-gear crow posted:

There is no feasible answer to the question, sadly. The center is already ceded, and the effort to win it back is beyond the ken of those in whose best interest it is to actually fight back, just like in actual politics. The furries managed it somehow though, so maybe there is hope yet. I dunno.

It's really annoying how people just toss their hands up and go "Well the nazis claimed this, now we can't do/say this or we're nazis!". gently caress that noise. Like Guy and SMG says, post with conviction and that's enough. If people insist on calling you a nazi or misogynist for it they're either arguing in bad faith or they're stupid assholes and can be ignored either way (unless of course, you're an actual nazi I guess).

Both GB and TLJ are severely flawed movies. It's great that people find things about them to enjoy, but just because the nazi brigade screech about women and SJWism doesn't mean the films don't have issues. It just means that people have to actually parse the criticism to see what's being said and apply some common sense.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





SuperMechagodzilla posted:

To be clear though, it’s not just a matter of “having the courage of your convictions” (as George W. Bush put it). If your claim is that Rey is just so pure that she just instinctively dismantles all forms of oppression, you need to address the part where she and BB beat and taze a black man for alleged theft of a cheap leather coat.

If you don’t address that, then the nazis can jump in and say that Rey is violent because she wants to take away videogames, or that FN deserves cop-death (or both; they don’t care if there’s cognitive dissonance).

In any case, the truthful and accurate reading is that Rey is a racist and classist who’s beating up FN not only because he’s black, but because she believes him to be a random ‘scavenger’.

And that’s bad. She’s a bad person.

That is quite the take, certainly. I don't even remember the scene where they taze FN, which isn't surprising because TFA was mostly forgettable

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





SuperMechagodzilla posted:

For a quick recap: Rey is hyped up on pure rage because two of Unkarís guys tried to steal BB-8 away from his rightful owner (Reyís incredibly invested in this loss of ownership because she sees it as analogous to her parental situation).

So, coincidentally at that moment, BB-8 spots FN and yells something like ďhey that guy stole my masterís jacket!Ē - so Rey chases him down and strikes him in the face with an upwards swing of her steel pipe. FN is literally knocked into the air with a surprise blow that realistically would have shattered his jaw - and, while heís rolling on the ground in pain and confusion, BB repeatedly tazes him with an electric prod.

The fact that itís so unmemorable points to several of the problems with the film: the brutal violence against an innocent man is played for light comedy, the scene in question is poorly constructed because of the reshoots, and FN instantly forgives being struck in the face with a pipe and starts quirkily flirting with Rey....

Contrast this with Luke being knocked out by Sandpeople.

So itís politically bad, but also just stupid and shoddy. The building FN gets beat in is a hastily-repurposed set from abother scene, so props and lighting change drastically from moment to moment.

Oooh, now I vaguely remember.

Yeah, that doesn't scan too well these days where black people are getting the police called on them for hanging out in their front porch.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





CainFortea posted:

Well clearly this calls for a scientific inquiry.

https://www.strawpoll.me/21002063

10 people who voted are not only wrong, but also clearly suffering from a mental episode. It's a cry for help

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





https://the-swsc.com/2020/09/18/jedi-finn-in-the-leaked-the-force-awakens-shot-list/

Food for thought

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





nine-gear crow posted:

There's an entire subset of the population of currently existing humans who sat down to watch The Last Jedi, and in the span of 90s minutes it fundamentally altered who they were as human beings and they will never be the same person they were before the words "EPISODE VIII THE LAST JEDI" scrolled across the screen.


I mean, this is actually true, there are people out there for whom this movie is utterly transformative, in a good way. And good for them!

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





nine-gear crow posted:

And I do hope that's true. In fact, I hope that's the majority case, or at least has the second largest share of the pie behind "no change what so ever" that someone could watch a Star Wars film--any Star Wars film--and come away from it a better person for it.

Well y'all know how I feel about the Disney trilogy, buy I can guarantee you most blockbuster films have inspired folks to be better or resonated with them in a profound way. It's a neat quality of the medium imo, and I genuinely think that's great

If Whedon's Avengers can do it then pretty much anything can, really!

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Cease to Hope posted:

he already wrote a star wars movie and it wasn't very good

Which one was that

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Tulip posted:

Justice League did great - 650M on a 300M budget is good even in Hollywood accounting, and very close in numbers to Man Of Steel. Frankly BOP did fairly well too - 200M on 100M is about what you expect for a good performance.

You also got to add the advertisment costs on top of that, I think it just barely broke even in the end.

Otherwise all the DC movies did great financially if you disregard the ludicrous "It's got Batman AND Superman in it, therefore it should make a gazillion dollars" smoothbrained kind of thinking you see pundits throwing around.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





CelticPredator posted:

Why is Johnson still the one nerds hate instead of Abrams? Why am I seeing videos from Midnight Sun in 2020 (1??) about how they're destroying "kathleen and rian's legacy"?

Well

He pissed of the chuds by introducing an Asian character and an SJW pink haired yaaas queen slay admiral that chewed out the male main character

He pissed of old star wars fans with the way they wrote Luke

He pissed off new Star wars fans with the way they wrote FN

He pissed off fans of TFA because it didn't follow up on the mystery boxes and what not but instead did its own thing, and is blamed for "derailing" the trilogy

And finally he made some utterly baffling choices that muddle or undermine the themes and ideas of the film.

All of this combined made it an easy film to dislike

Edit: I don't know how much executive meddling there was going on here, and how much of the above Rian is responsible for. I heavily suspect there was at least some exec insisting on sidelining FN at least

McCloud fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jan 11, 2021

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Cease to Hope posted:

I am extremely skeptical that the people defending TLJ are why the Doomcock/Quartering/Brie-Larsen-ruined-everything Youtube grifter crowd seized on it and still haven't let go years later.


source your quotes

That is obviously not my take on her, but an exaggeration of how the chuds are sarcastically and derogatorily describing her and why they are upset with her.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Nine-Gear, did you perhaps confuse "Reasons people hate Rian" with "Reasons McCloud hates Rian"?

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





nine-gear crow posted:

I mean you left it a little ambiguous as to whether you believed what you posting rather than posting it for the sake of argument, but the point remains. Most of peoples "I will die mad about this" contentions with the film are remarkably flimsy and fall apart when poked at even slightly. The biggest one being the all-encompassing one "people got eternally mad over and constructed their own set of QAnon-level insanity around a movie about space wizards made for children"

A lot of them are flimsy, sure. We both agree that chud tears over diversity are dumb and that FN got screwed over. I do understand that people are upset over the direction they took Luke, but ultimately this is a personal preference and while it 's understandable it would impact someones enjoyment of the film, it's not an indictment of the quality of the film, so I technically agree with you there too.

The last two points though I feel are more or less legitimate grievances. TFA was all about appealing to the nostalgia of the star wars fans, It was all shallow fan service sure, but it did work. Folks got a space adventure with lightsabers again, and they probably expected TLJ to elaborate on the mystery boxes and set up a continuation of the fun space adventure space opera. That's obviously not what happened. Instead TFA and TLJ seem to be trying to appeal to two very different sets of fans, with TLJ course correcting and undoing some stuff set up by TFA and then Rise course correcting again to undo the undoings of TLJ. I suspect there was a lot of executive meddling here, so I think it's a bit unfair to lay the blame entirely on JJ or Rian. Communication and planning would have avoided a lot of issues.

And, like Cease points out, there are more than a few contradictions going on. Poe disobeying an order to destroy a super ship that it turns out would have destroyed the fleet, but it's still made out as if Poe was in the wrong, somehow. Or how the entire Luke-Kylo incident is basically that Luke is about to pull an anakin, scares the poo poo out of Kylo, who then apparently murders his friends and escapes, and then Luke fucks off into exile without telling anyone, including Kylos Parents, his best friend and sister, what happened, but still left clues as how to be found, for some reason (?!). Someone called this the ultimate liberal movie, and this is perfectly exemplified in FN and Rose rescuing an enslaved horse but leaving the slave boy, who helped them escape, behind.

TLJ is a flawed film. There's a lot of dumb reasons to dislike it, and there's a lot of valid criticisms against it.

None of that obviously justifies hating Rian or the many lenghty youtube videos about how Kathleen and rian raped Star wars or whatever, but I think we all know who the target audience for those videos are. And to still be obsessing over it is obviously weird. It's out, it's done, move on.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





The thing about mystery boxes is that even if they're empty, there's potential for something good. I remember there was tons of buzz from a lot of folks (including my partner) about said boxes and what tantalizing plot twist might be inside them.

It would have been better to try and make the best of the boxes instead of tossing them out the window, imo.


CelticPredator posted:

Yeah but I hate them and I’m tired of their lovely YT content lol

Bro loving tell me about it. Just shut the duck up and stop making lovely videos with lovely hot takes. They know controversy brings clicks so they fall over each other with the dumbest takes.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





New Super Metis posted:

genuine question: what's the deal with calling Finn FN?

His imperial designation was FN#, hence Finn, but people are lazy and abbreviate it back to FN.

Which might be a little hosed up, now that I think about it

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

what's baffling to me is that the movie seems so contradictory on this. like on the one hand poe's an insubordinate jackass that deserves to get slapped down, and gets the bomber force annihilated. but at the end of the movie the admiral and general are all "awwww he's our ~future~" ??????


It's also that his insubordination clearly saved the fleet, but it's still painted as if he was in the wrong. It feels like two parents scolding their child because they were disobeyed, not because he did something bad

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





SlothfulCobra posted:

His insubordination at the beginning apparently just wiped out the entire bomber force for little to no benefit, while his insubordination and attempted coup later on had literally no effect.

The admiral's secret plan that she sacrificed many lives for and drove Poe to treason out of frustration was given away by a tramp who apparently knew about the plan without actually having ever heard the plan, so it seems like a dumb idea. Half the transports were destroyed, but by that point the movie had such a ridiculous fatality rate of unseen and unnamed background characters that you're entirely desensitized to all of it.

Everybody dies, the few survivors make a bold speech to the rest of the galaxy that nobody responds to, hope is nothing but brutal suffering in a world that doesn't care.

As I recall, his insubordination took out the dreadnaught with long range weapons that would have taken out the fleet during the chase if Poe hadn't destroyed it before they jumped.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





indigi posted:

this is rationalization. nobody knew the FO could track them through hyperspace, so this isnít why he sacrificed all the bombers; he did it to prove heís mister big dick

Doesn't matter if nobody knew that the FO could track them because his actions still retroactively saved their asses. If the film wanted to convey that he hosed up or was in the wrong, then this was a bad way of showing it. It would have been better to show how his actions hurt the fleet and how admiral holdo was right to chew him out for it.

If the aim was to show Poe being in the wrong, then the film goes about a poor way of showing that, which is my point. It keeps doesn't commit to its ideas

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





The best way to have handled the luke kylo thing imo is to have Luke be the one that pushed him to the dark side by being an overbearing teacher and Kylo a slow grower. Have Luke feel the pressure to restore the jedi to greatness, so he's in turn training Kylo really hard, who's a slow grower and is resenting Luke for pressuring him, and Luke being frustrated with his lack of progress. Snoke sees an opening and turns Kylo against luke, Han is furious with both Luke and Leia because they cost him his son and tells them to gently caress off, and Luke feels so bad he decides to go into exile.

It's basically the same beats only Luke doesn't entertain the idea of fratricide, he's still very much guilty of Kylo falling, and it echoes how Obi-wan failed Anakin for that delicious poetry angle

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