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indigi
Jul 20, 2004

picture me workin McDonald's!
I'd rather pull a mac on you
sorry Ms. Jackson, but I'm packin


Pillbug

is he a sex monster? I thought he was just a tyrant bully who mainly picked on women

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Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

indigi posted:

is he a sex monster? I thought he was just a tyrant bully who mainly picked on women

He also used his position to bang a lot of women and then "apologized" to his wife by bragging about it.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

picture me workin McDonald's!
I'd rather pull a mac on you
sorry Ms. Jackson, but I'm packin


Pillbug

oh. ew

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



It's been said earlier in the thread but all of the "Companion" poo poo in Firefly makes a lot more sense when you realize he was cheating on his wife on the regular, most likely with actresses either afraid to say no and/or attempting to social climb. A disgusting, disgusting sense.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





mind the walrus posted:

It's been said earlier in the thread but all of the "Companion" poo poo in Firefly makes a lot more sense when you realize he was cheating on his wife on the regular, most likely with actresses either afraid to say no and/or attempting to social climb. A disgusting, disgusting sense.

I thought that was just the Orientalist Sinophilia running through Firefly generally. "Concubines of incredible financial and political power that move in the circles of the elite and bend them to their will through feminine whiles and ruthless intellect IN SPAAAAAAAACE."

(I remember how much praise Firefly got for that American/Chinese 'cultural fusion,' and its really quite funny on a rewatch how utterly superfluous it is. Throwing random Chinese words out and having a smattering of white people with Chinese clothes or text on their shops in an otherwise clearly American universe is not a 'cultural fusion.' Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)

(You want to see a setting with some actual east-west cultural melding going on, watch Outlaw Star)

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Sanguinia posted:

I thought that was just the Orientalist Sinophilia running through Firefly generally. "Concubines of incredible financial and political power that move in the circles of the elite and bend them to their will through feminine whiles and ruthless intellect IN SPAAAAAAAACE."

(I remember how much praise Firefly got for that American/Chinese 'cultural fusion,' and its really quite funny on a rewatch how utterly superfluous it is. Throwing random Chinese words out and having a smattering of white people with Chinese clothes or text on their shops in an otherwise clearly American universe is not a 'cultural fusion.' Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)

(You want to see a setting with some actual east-west cultural melding going on, watch Outlaw Star)

Or, you know, just watch Outlaw Star because it answers the question of "Do you give your ship a gun or an axe?" with "Yes."

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

picture me workin McDonald's!
I'd rather pull a mac on you
sorry Ms. Jackson, but I'm packin


Pillbug

Sanguinia posted:

Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)

no lol but supposedly this was going to be a plot point in season 2

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Bogus Adventure posted:

Or, you know, just watch Outlaw Star because it answers the question of "Do you give your ship a gun or an axe?" with "Yes."



Outlaw Star is like 33% of the reason I have anything to do with anime (the other 67% is Dragon Ball Z and Gundam Wing).

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2 hours!


Sanguinia posted:

I thought that was just the Orientalist Sinophilia running through Firefly generally. "Concubines of incredible financial and political power that move in the circles of the elite and bend them to their will through feminine whiles and ruthless intellect IN SPAAAAAAAACE."

(I remember how much praise Firefly got for that American/Chinese 'cultural fusion,' and its really quite funny on a rewatch how utterly superfluous it is. Throwing random Chinese words out and having a smattering of white people with Chinese clothes or text on their shops in an otherwise clearly American universe is not a 'cultural fusion.' Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)

(You want to see a setting with some actual east-west cultural melding going on, watch Outlaw Star)

Well, where do you expect them to find an Asian actor in...[checks notes]...Vancouver?

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

wdarkk posted:

Outlaw Star is like 33% of the reason I have anything to do with anime (the other 67% is Dragon Ball Z and Gundam Wing).

I remember back in the day when Cartoon Network's Toonami had those shows running. DBZ and Gundam Wing were on during the day, so you'd get The Cell Saga and then Gundam Wing's story. At night, you'd get to see Outlaw Star after Cowboy Bebop.

drat, those were good TV days...

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Well, where do you expect them to find an Asian actor in...[checks notes]...Vancouver?
That actually made me laugh out loud.

wdarkk posted:

Outlaw Star is like 33% of the reason I have anything to do with anime (the other 67% is Dragon Ball Z and Gundam Wing).
Outlaw Star is one of the last anime to really be down with appealing to Westerners, is unapologetically dumb as poo poo, and it loving rules. I don't know if it holds any appeal if you're over 14 watching it for the first time, but watching it in middle school is a genuine fond memory.

Also Firefly 200% ripped off the "girl in a box" thing from Outlaw Star and I will never hear a single word to the contrary:





Sanguinia posted:

Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)
No joke I think the explanation was "they're all on the other side of the solar system you just can't see them."

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


mind the walrus posted:

Also Firefly 200% ripped off the "girl in a box" thing from Outlaw Star and I will never hear a single word to the contrary:




I heard about that but it looks way way worse side by side like that. I think that's the same box with some bevels.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I'm not even mad Whedon did it but he reportedly denies it and it's like "loving why?"

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





The missing Chinese people thing is just insane. It, above else, lends credence to the Ray Fisher story.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

mind the walrus posted:

I'm not even mad Whedon did it but he reportedly denies it and it's like "loving why?"

He's just jelly that Melfina is a better character. Also, that the vignettes during the ending songs create a more compelling sci-fi universe than anything Joss has ever dreamed of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoxDY5G4LW8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqnDsVEORXY

It also helps that Akino Arai wrote beautiful ending themes for it, but I would kill for any of these scenes to be developed into a sci-fi/space fantasy show.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Creepy big-eye anime waifus set to that lilting jpop and sci-fi sketches are one of the truest lullabies for a generation of kids around 2001-03. If you know, you know.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





mind the walrus posted:

I'm not even mad Whedon did it but he reportedly denies it and it's like "loving why?"

Because he'd have to admit to watching anime.

Also, putting a girl in a fridge is hardly something you can claim was "stolen" from outlaw star. It's sort of a common trope.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

picture me workin McDonald's!
I'd rather pull a mac on you
sorry Ms. Jackson, but I'm packin


Pillbug

keep telling yourself that Kyle

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Sanguinia posted:

(I remember how much praise Firefly got for that American/Chinese 'cultural fusion,' and its really quite funny on a rewatch how utterly superfluous it is. Throwing random Chinese words out and having a smattering of white people with Chinese clothes or text on their shops in an otherwise clearly American universe is not a 'cultural fusion.' Is there even a single asian person on that show, let alone one of Chinese ethnicity?)


Hey the Tams are supposed to be part Chinese, so its okay for them to be played by white rear end gently caress actors.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I don't think it's a bad idea to try borrowing some Chinese aesthetics, but Firefly barely has anything, to be honest. And definitely don't go writing that the bulk of the population is Chinese when you don't plan on hiring any asian actors. That's just making trouble for yourself.

CainFortea posted:

Because he'd have to admit to watching anime.

Also, putting a girl in a fridge is hardly something you can claim was "stolen" from outlaw star. It's sort of a common trope.

When people normally refer to a "woman in a fridge" it's referencing the use of killing off or injuring women as a plot device to motivate another character, in a reference to the time that the Green Lantern's girlfriend got murdered and stuffed in a refrigerator. It's actually pretty rare for a woman to be secretly transported in a tiny fridge.

It's been a long while since I watched Outlaw Star. I remember liking it, but I kinda like remembering it as a bizarre fever dream that barely makes any sense. The one episode I do strongly remember is the cactus episode.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





SlothfulCobra posted:

When people normally refer to a "woman in a fridge" it's referencing the use of killing off or injuring women as a plot device to motivate another character, in a reference to the time that the Green Lantern's girlfriend got murdered and stuffed in a refrigerator. It's actually pretty rare for a woman to be secretly transported in a tiny fridge.



That'll learn me trying to be funny.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

SlothfulCobra posted:

It's been a long while since I watched Outlaw Star. I remember liking it, but I kinda like remembering it as a bizarre fever dream that barely makes any sense. The one episode I do strongly remember is the cactus episode.

Cactus episode OWNS. Everything about the show OWNS. Even the terrible hot springs episode that Cartoon Network didn't show because of Ctarl-Ctarl boobies and problematic monks who get their comeuppance OWNS.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



SlothfulCobra posted:

It's been a long while since I watched Outlaw Star. I remember liking it, but I kinda like remembering it as a bizarre fever dream that barely makes any sense. The one episode I do strongly remember is the cactus episode.
"Fever dream" is basically the vibe of Outlaw Star yeah. Everything is super-saturated and just kind of flows with dream logic that holds up while you're watching it, but afterward you'd be hard-pressed to remember any specifics.

CainFortea posted:



That'll learn me trying to be funny.
I see what you were going for. Swing and a miss. Happens.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




'Mysterious waify girl found in a box' isn't an uncommon plot device in anime (and not necessarily something they even bother explaining. Also in at least one case it's actually a dog) and occasionally other stuff. But wouldn't surprise me Whedon figured he could rip off a Japanese cartoon and no one who matters to him would know.

QuarkJets
Sep 8, 2008

It's a handshake in progress


Everyone remembers that time that Goku opened a box covered in blinking lights and inside was the naked and demure Krillin

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





QuarkJets posted:

Everyone remembers that time that Goku opened a box covered in blinking lights and inside was the naked and demure Krillin

I remember Android 16 was in a box, but he WASN'T naked. Good job subverting the trope Toriyama-san

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Sanguinia posted:

I remember Android 16 was in a box, but he WASN'T naked. Good job subverting the trope Toriyama-san

He might be, all that armor he's wearing might just be built into his body like the clothes on a GI Joe

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Goku came to Earth in a sphere and ends up naked at inappropriate times, but mostly unrelated.

Laterite
Mar 14, 2007

It's Gutfest '89

Grimey Drawer

Firefly - "It's actually pretty rare for a woman to be secretly transported in a tiny fridge."

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Laterite posted:

Firefly - "It's actually pretty rare for a woman to be secretly transported in a tiny fridge."

Got a genuine lol from me

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I started rewatching some of Outlaw Star because of thise thread, and it's pretty neat, although it's not nearly as cool as Toonami portrayed it.

It did make me think of one thing I appreciate about Firefly, which is how humble it is. Which is weird to say, because most of the big fans of Firefly I've heard talk about it don't seem to think of the characters as humble and focus on their big cool awesome moments, and Whedon's an extremely not-humble guy, but I felt like the series really gave the idea that they were all a bunch of nobody schlubs. The captain's a loser drifter veteran of the wrong side of a war, Jayne's big and tough, but he's also stupid and disloyal, the engineer's talented but naive, they're all kinda dorks. And there's even episodes where they do simple honest work instead of constantly hunting bounties and treasure.

Which I guess makes Firefly a more dramatic and less funny version of Futurama.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





SlothfulCobra posted:

I started rewatching some of Outlaw Star because of thise thread, and it's pretty neat, although it's not nearly as cool as Toonami portrayed it.

It did make me think of one thing I appreciate about Firefly, which is how humble it is. Which is weird to say, because most of the big fans of Firefly I've heard talk about it don't seem to think of the characters as humble and focus on their big cool awesome moments, and Whedon's an extremely not-humble guy, but I felt like the series really gave the idea that they were all a bunch of nobody schlubs. The captain's a loser drifter veteran of the wrong side of a war, Jayne's big and tough, but he's also stupid and disloyal, the engineer's talented but naive, they're all kinda dorks. And there's even episodes where they do simple honest work instead of constantly hunting bounties and treasure.

Which I guess makes Firefly a more dramatic and less funny version of Futurama.

Outlaw Star amps into cool overdrive after Episode 14 IMO, although as cool as the Toonami Space video is a HIGH loving bar.

As to the humbleness of Firefly, one of the things I picked up after my last rewatch is just how truly pure a "Western," it is.

After Django Unchained came out as the culmination of that Gritty Realistic Cowboy Movie trend in the late 00s-early 10s, there was a trickle of really weird, good and genre subversive Western movies that came out in the following years that I feel were heavily influenced by it: Hateful Eight, Revenant and Hostiles jump to mind. They led to some really good articles and video essays about the history of the Western as a "post-apocalyptic," genre. I'd never realized before how so many of the most classic Cowboy movies had featured Confederate veterans in protagonist roles and how heavily Reconstruction looms a relevant background noise to their stories. I wouldn't say all that many of them are Lost Cause propaganda in the way a Gone With The Wind was, but even the most upbeat of them end up having sort of this bizarre melancholy to their stories or characters that you'd never really notice unless you're looking for it, and that melancholy is absolutely rooted in the South's defeat in the Civil War.

Firefly is almost brazen in how strongly it conforms to this formula, to the point of inventing a War Of Northern Aggression IN SPACE for Mal to be on the losing side of. The Alliance's victory over the Independents, how society at large feels about it, the Rural/Urban divide between the fringe planets and the core, the tech disparity, the social disparity (landed aristocracy and slavery-in-all-but-name working classes vs modern metropolitan liberal civilizations), local governments on the fringe being synonymous with Crime Lords, the existence of completely isolated regressive throwback communities that violate even their own social norms as a matter of course, its all is deeply rooted in post-Civil War America and how Western movies tended to portray those realities.

It makes me wonder if a lot of Firefly's fans latched onto it because the type of movie it was evoking was borderline dead as a genre at the time and so it was novel to the target audience for being a western at all, let alone a Space Western. There were pretty much no major, mainstream Western films or shows that I'm aware of between 1995 and 2004-05 when Deadwood revived the Genre and was soon met in the theaters by 3:10 to Yuma in '07. Its like... the later seasons of Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, Wild Wild West, Shanghai Noon, and if you want to stretch it The Mask of Zorror and Last Samurai. That's IT for major period Westerns in a stretch of a full decade.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Outlaw Star is a great but flawed show. It has pacing issues, and I'd bet that they ran out of money in the budget with how poorly the last few episodes are animated. It really delivers on a cool epic space quest, with ridiculously cool ideas (like a space gun that fires MAGIC BULLETS!!!) alongside goofy AF characters (Aisha Clan-Clan and Gene Starwind). It also builds a really neat sci-fi setting, and I'd kill to play an RPG based in that type of universe. Hell, Outlaw Star got me to try watching Angel Links because it's nominally set in the same universe (it's aggressively not good, though).

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



I keep telling people The Expanse is what Firefly wanted to be, about while technology changes, the social problems stay the same. You have a clear wealthy ruling class with a massive underclass, and scheming plots behind the scenes. Though it lacks cute hats, lazy western imagery and actually has a massively diverse cast. And when someone turned out to be a creep they were fired.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Cowboy Bebop and Trigun come to mind as well for the bizarrely high-profile niche of Anime Space Western.

Though I feel it's hard to watch Outlaw Star when you've seen Space Dandy.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Sanguinia posted:

It makes me wonder if a lot of Firefly's fans latched onto it because the type of movie it was evoking was borderline dead as a genre at the time and so it was novel to the target audience for being a western at all, let alone a Space Western.

Westerns are weird because, outside of their golden age, it seems like it's a genre that Americans really, really want but still doesn't produce megasuccesses. I don't really have a good explanation for why it declined without ever having a big retro comeback.

I think it's one of Star Wars' big strengths though. Part of this is that Westerns are the most American colonialist genre, and colonialism & scifi are pretty intertwined, so it's a pretty natural to work the two together.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Westerns are about romanticizing the idea of a land that is largely unknown with a lot of small towns scraping out a living and wandering adventurers armed to the teeth ready to help or harm, but mostly following around a couple big money industries around like ranching or mining to serve as workers. There's often a lot of focus on bounty hunters and bandits who make a living directly off of their fighting skills.

What really never gels right with sci-fi spacefaring though is how a whole lot is built up around the idea of solitary drifters who just pass through on their own. There's also the idea of frontiermen who know how to live off the land outside of towns, foraging for food in the wild so they don't have to rely on anyone else. That doesn't really match how usually most spacecraft need a whole crew of people to keep running, and surviving out in space on your own is never really an option.

Logistically, it's more like the age of sail, where captains couldn't afford to be brooding loners and instead had to be rigorously responsible or fall into becoming worthless middlemen or horrible tyrants. I feel like the last thing I read that really tried to have the spirit of the age of sail was Drifting Dragons, which is basically about whaling but in the sky.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Tulip posted:

Westerns are weird because, outside of their golden age, it seems like it's a genre that Americans really, really want but still doesn't produce megasuccesses. I don't really have a good explanation for why it declined without ever having a big retro comeback.

I think it's one of Star Wars' big strengths though. Part of this is that Westerns are the most American colonialist genre, and colonialism & scifi are pretty intertwined, so it's a pretty natural to work the two together.

Weirdly, if you want to dig in deep to the cowboy culture that gave birth to westerns, what you really need to go to Mexico, because that's where the cattle industry in North America got started, that's where a lot of the etymology about cowboy things come from, and that's where the Spanish started up the herds of wild horses that could be captured and broken in.

Also Mexico has a lot of the kinds of conflicts that go into Western stories, especially during the 19th century where Mexico went through a lot of war. It had a weak federal government that had trouble keeping its provinces in line, it had corrupt officials that towns would make stands against, it had native americans raiding towns, it had the government exterminating native tribes (not the ones that did the raids), and it had bandit groups that fluctuated between criminals, vigilantes, wealthy local powers, armies in rebellion, and even official armies not in rebellion. Mexico went through a lot of troubles.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Tulip posted:

Westerns are weird because, outside of their golden age, it seems like it's a genre that Americans really, really want but still doesn't produce megasuccesses. I don't really have a good explanation for why it declined without ever having a big retro comeback.

I think it's one of Star Wars' big strengths though. Part of this is that Westerns are the most American colonialist genre, and colonialism & scifi are pretty intertwined, so it's a pretty natural to work the two together.
Slothful Cobra is right on the money, but one thing I think gets overlooked is there's a lot of nostalgia for when the industry could pump out a huge variety of flicks each year in their own backyard by filming on what was basically their grandparents' old ranches. I have no doubt budget-minded production teams would kill to be able to go back to that kind-of input/output cycle.

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twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



People complain about there being too many Superhero movies these days, but there were way, way WAY more westerns produced during its golden age. Which is generally considered what killed it as a major genre.

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