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Lurk feels like yet another keyword that's going to be a pain in the rear end to balance. Since you need some critical mass of cards in the deck to have it go off, either it's going to be too much faffing around or a beast.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:52
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Someone should tell riot there are things keywords can do besides adding +1 or more to a stat.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:53
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Boxman posted:I guess Snapjaw Swarm is a little ambiguous - can other units join in the attack? Probably not, right? No, it means that the swarm starts an attack on its own. That might sound a bit underwhelming in isolation, but think about the kind of synergies it enables. It's already obviously part of the Lurk archetype which triggers from attacks (and free attack on play enables you to trigger that on your opponent's attack turn). It's in the same region as Miss Fortune. And apparently some people play decks that use free attacks to have some synergy with Azir? Not sure about that last one.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:59
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It seems pretty weak. Not a believer in aggro predict when the payoff is so poor. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but those two are unpromising.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:59
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Boxman posted:Rise of the Underworlds spoilers have started: Not a chance in hell. Lurk is strange. Unless you can play 20+ lurk cards it basically only does anything with predict. Both of those lurk cards suck complete rear end so I'm not optimistic. Low cost creatures that eventually become big suck because if you draw them early they are understatted and if you draw them late you are still drawing a one drop that dies to any ping or a two drop with no useful keywords that dies to mystic shot or trades with a one drop. To be any good at all you need a cheap way of drawing like four of these at once. I really dislike the 2 mana one honestly, you can literally only play it AFTER you've buffed it significantly AND when your opponent has no good blocks for it. It's a two mana card that is going to sit in your hand forever and even when you find the right time for it not to trade down, it has to attack but your opponent gets to choose whether and how to block it. It's trash with extremely limited upside. Magic Underwear fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 19:00
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Hexite crystal looks crazy. I would absolutely use an omnitargeted mystic shot. It's also in the same region as sumpworks posse, which would also be strong in a predict/burn archetype.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:01
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Bottom ten cards is really low. And it won't work with toss! Like at bottom ten cards of your deck you could be go harding repeatedly. It's really hard to imagine unless there's new stuff added.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:05
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No Wave posted:Bottom ten cards is really low.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:07
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Predict shuffles your deck so that thing shouldn't be in the bottom for very long.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:07
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No Wave posted:Bottom ten cards is really low. And it won't work with toss! Like at bottom ten cards of your deck you could be go harding repeatedly. It's really hard to imagine unless there's new stuff added. It's meant to work with predict, predict shuffles the deck. I think it might be good honestly.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:08
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I've played quite a bit of shurima+pnz already, and predict already works really nicely with the discard package. Predicting into cards and drawing them on the same turn is really nice, and it helps smooth out the issues discard has with hands bricking with the wrong card combinations. There isn't a really meta beating deck using that region combo right now, but hopefully Ekko's package will give it the bump it needs.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:11
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hit button posted:It's already obviously part of the Lurk archetype which triggers from attacks (and free attack on play enables you to trigger that on your opponent's attack turn). It's in the same region as Miss Fortune. And apparently some people play decks that use free attacks to have some synergy with Azir? Not sure about that last one. I feel like both versions of that deck are just the lovely version of Azir/Irelia. Moving out of Ionia means losing not just the blade dances (which are better for azir, since there blade dance 2s in the deck), but the protection for combo pieces with recall and - most importantly - the massive payoffs of sparring student and greenglade duo. Losing Shurima is a little more viable, I think, since MF is such an obvious power card for the deck. But turboleveled azir probably somehow closes out games faster even than leveled MF, and she's more fragile than Azir to boot. hit button posted:Hexite crystal looks crazy. I would absolutely use an omnitargeted mystic shot. It's also in the same region as sumpworks posse, which would also be strong in a predict/burn archetype. It depends on cards that make it, since its not collectable. Creating it in the bottom 10 cards of your deck actually means you have to predict at least twice to have a chance of seeing it, which really diminishes its value. (E: f;b here, ah well) Ekko's flavor might mean a repeating predict effect, which would certainly help. Boxman fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 19:19
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Magic Underwear posted:It's meant to work with predict, predict shuffles the deck. I think it might be good honestly.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:20
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Boxman posted:Creating it in the bottom 10 cards of your deck actually means you have to predict at least twice to have a chance of seeing it No. Predict shows you three random cards from your deck. It can show up in the first.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:23
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hit button posted:No. Predict shows you three random cards from your deck. It can show up in the first. oh, wow. I'm so used to thinking of it like pseudo scry I assumed it was the top 3. Okay yeah, it's a small thing but that probably helps it a bit on the margins enough to be worth a look. Also, when I first read your comment I was thinking more Azir/Bilgewater, which there really isn't enough support for. But then I'm looking more at a Bilgewater package to replace Shurima and I think I'm...not convinced it will be a thing, but I think it could. Crackshot Corsair and Jagged butcher are cute 1 drops for the deck, and MF is very silly. MF having to see you attack 4 times hurts a lot, which makes her worse than then Shurima version of the deck, but I'd imagine it will see nerfs in this patch.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:42
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Still a bit traumatized by the phrase "Free Attack" that I'm not too keen to see it on new cards.
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Jun 21, 2021 20:07
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The Lurk cards being cheap is so you can play them early to attack with them to activate your other Lurk cards. It’s not an aggro deck, it’s a tempo deck using Lurk and predict to our scale and out value your opponent from card advantage and ever increasing attack. I’m also guessing Ekko puts himself on top of the deck and has lurk, to represent him constantly rewinding until he makes the perfect fight. Either that or he predicts on attack so that you can put a Lurker on top and get the proc every turn. Which notably buffs lurkers on the board as well. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 00:53
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Lurk doesn't seem terrible given it buffs lurk allies *everywhere* so your stuff already on field and in hand scale up too. It really hinges on if there's enough Lurk to fill out a deck with to take full advantage without it being overly inconsistent to pull off. Given this is the last mini-chunk expansion I'm not optimistic on that.
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Jun 22, 2021 01:05
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someone made an entire VOID region's worth of cards and this YouTuber reviewed it, I enjoyed watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzPRvmw66Hk there's a small handful of overpowered/undercosted cards in there, but only one that blatantly goes against Runeterra's current design. from the meh we've seen of Lurk so far this would be more fun. the central mechanic is reverse Plunder - abilities that trigger after you've damaged your own Nexus during a turn.
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Jun 22, 2021 01:12
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Today's spoilers:  The Deck That Builds Itself continues to take form in a fittingly predict-able fashion. From left to right: good enabler for lurk but if you consider 3 mana should buy a 3/3 with upside, the upside here is almost completely parasitic. In other words this is not playable outside a lurk deck and that's disappointing. Also this has no evasion so frequently it won't be able to push much damage no matter how big it gets. 0 cost predict: really pushes the limits of how little value you can get from spending a card. Scrying sands at least potentially gives you a favorable trade and pops spellshields. This card has a chance to enable lurk or get hexite crystal but compare to warning shot that guarantees face damage, enables plunder, levels gangplank etc. No bueno. Careful prep: for control/combo decks only. Going down a card is rough but getting a specific card and knowing your topdeck is good for decks with a toolbox of answers. Last one is so boring and cookie cutter who even cares. If you spend six mana on this and it gets answered cleanly you probably lose right away. As in mtg, expensive creatures really need to create instant value or have protection to be good. For example I like ruin runner a lot more than this. Noted powerhouse card alpha wildclaw is better than this with no investment required, only reaching stat parity when you've successfully lurked on four prior attacks. But they'll probably only print a few more lurkers so you'll have to put this in the deck anyway. Can you tell I dislike the insular, no-thought deck design of lurk? Magic Underwear fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 22:28
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One other horrible thought: we have lurkers at 1,2,3, and 6. If we get champions at 4 and 5 plus one or two more followers in the 3-4 range, the strategy of the lurk deck would be to try to play one big creature each round (to ensure you can attack profitably to proc lurk) and predict a large lurker on attack rounds, supported by the 0 mana predict. It's sort of like the worst parts of curvestone and summon an even larger man, two of the most despised play patterns in hearthstone history. Luckily though, at this rate lurk will suck so it won't be nearly as obnoxious.
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Jun 22, 2021 22:53
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 Lot of "create random Lurk cards" for an archetype that hasn't shown us that many Lurk cards.
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Jun 23, 2021 18:01
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She seems so bad. Like how do you not lose the game after playing her without leveling? I'd love to be surprised here but it just looks so rough. I am a little confused by her wording though. When you attack with her on top of deck she gives lurkers +2/+0?
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Jun 23, 2021 19:11
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She's the reliable lurk. I don't know that that makes lurk good, but triggering off of attack and not just off of lurk is clearly something Riot thinks is a champion tier ability.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:13
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One of those cards needs 6 lurks to activate, and the other needs 7. How often are they expecting lurks to go off? Maybe I'm just not understanding the mechanic right, but I feel like if you're attacked 6-7 times and the opponent is not dead, they probably have enough board presence or removal to not care that much. I mean, Rek'sai is a 3 mana 3/6 with upside which is insane. Oh, lol, I just noticed the Round End trigger, never mind. I might get clowned on, but I feel Riot is vastly overestimating how easy it is to get lurk triggers.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:19
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You get +2 triggers when Rek'sai is on top of the deck, and if you high roll a bit, can get +3 when she attacks, as long as there is second one on toonof the deck. With thing like Boneskewer and Call the pack, you can do this fairly reliably. If you high roll and get the +3/+1 card, you can't get a 3 mana Darius and, with teased Bilgewater 1 mana and 8 mana lurks, along with Pyke who'll also lurk, you will have 30 cards with lurk in a deck. This is fairly consistent.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:38
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CitizenKeen posted:
Well here's what I was saying lurk needed, an easy way to refill your hand. There are some interesting things here: predicting reksai doubles the lurk effect. Call the pack has lurk and enables lurk, great to predict. Getting spellshield on attack is not great. Deck is still going to have trouble fitting in removal and non lurkers though, because you'll hate to predict anything without lurk. Everything in this deck has a huge fat rear end! Decks that rely on small aoe like zilean and tlc are screwed against it. Frostbites and stuns and recalls are the way to go. I'm guessing wide aggro decks have a good chance too, since this deck won't be drawing much removal and tends to play one big guy per turn. A reksai that shuffles himself is unplayable against aggro. Reksai is vastly stronger than anything else in the archetype, with shaped stone he won't be hard to level up. I wonder if this is it for lurkers. I really hope they don't print any more cheap lurkers or any removal or card advantage with lurk.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:41
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Alitur posted:You get +2 triggers when Rek'sai is on top of the deck, and if you high roll a bit, can get +3 when she attacks, as long as there is second one on toonof the deck. With thing like Boneskewer and Call the pack, you can do this fairly reliably. If you high roll and get the +3/+1 card, you can't get a 3 mana Darius and, with teased Bilgewater 1 mana and 8 mana lurks, along with Pyke who'll also lurk, you will have 30 cards with lurk in a deck. This is fairly consistent. Okay, so I was misunderstanding the mechanic, nevermind.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:44
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Magic Underwear posted:I wonder if this is it for lurkers. I really hope they don't print any more cheap lurkers or any removal or card advantage with lurk. The reveal video showed the tops of both a 1 cost and 8 cost bildgewater lurker cards.
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Jun 23, 2021 19:51
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No Wave posted:It seems pretty weak. Not a believer in aggro predict when the payoff is so poor. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but those two are unpromising. (1) lurk is useless and maybe one or two cards with it are good on their own (2) lurk is playable but the deck builds itself because you're just mashing all the lurk cards together and neither is particularly interesting longterm. although lurk looks fun to play for now at least provided it's good One redeeming thing is the lurk keyword isn't valuable so they can just toss it on random stuff. Khorne fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 23, 2021 |
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Jun 23, 2021 20:03
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Suddenly Susan posted:The reveal video showed the tops of both a 1 cost and 8 cost bildgewater lurker cards. I can live with that. The 8 will rarely be cast and mucks up the random generation pool, and a 1 kind of does too. The number of playable lurk cards strongly affects how good the deck is, so getting another hero and solid (non situational, good value) 2 and 4 drops would push it over the top. And if they print a good removal with lurk I will just shake my head. I still hate the fact that you're going to build this deck by searching for the word lurk and adding everything, and that we have another hero that is completely worthless except with that package.
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Jun 23, 2021 20:13
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Lurk's gonna be the new Deep - all in or nothing. it also doesn't seem very interesting to play against? every time your opponent attacks there's a good chance their units get even stronger. OK cool.
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Jun 23, 2021 20:13
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Khorne posted:my main problem with the lurk design is it only interacts with lurk so you effectively end up in one of two situations: That's nothing new to this game, honestly. See also: Daylight, Nightfall.
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Jun 23, 2021 20:16
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Hellioning posted:That's nothing new to this game, honestly. See also: Daylight, Nightfall. Lurk needs other lurk cards to do anything at all and the only decision making around it is in deckbuilding & with predict. If you run 3x of a lurk card you have something like a 1% or worse chance of activating lurk in your top 8, ~5%-8% in your top 15 (hypergeom is ~13.45 to draw 2 copies in 15 draws from a 40 card deck). But this assumes you drew the first copy on a different turn and have it in play. Which makes the keyword do nothing at all unless you commit to all the lurk cards. The only similar daybreak & nightfall cards to lurk are the champions that require you to do a certain thing with the keyword n times. They're usually useless outside of decks built around the keyword. I can give these a design pass because champions are allowed to be strong but situational. I'm not entirely convinced designing entire keywords that way is good. Even deep could arguably be reached by any deck in a fantasy world where games frequently go to the point of getting decked. Khorne fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 23, 2021 |
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Jun 23, 2021 20:18
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3 mana 3/6 is still a good stat line to make people not want to attack into it on a defensive turn or skip blocking it on a attack turn. And you could always surprise level it up with some shaped stone or other things.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:02
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I want to see a spell and/or unit which grants Lurk to the top N units in your deck.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:07
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I imagine Pyke is also gonna be Lurk focused given we saw a Lurk card from Bilgewater in the first batch. I imagine the natural build is gonna be Pyke/Rek'sai, but we'll have to see what more stuff is in store and how he functions once that stuff gets revealed.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:14
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every lurk deck's gonna need 3 Xenotype Researchers https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Xenotype_Researchers_(Legends_of_Runeterra)
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Jun 23, 2021 22:23
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fireraiser posted:I want to see a spell and/or unit which grants Lurk to the top N units in your deck.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:54
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Lurk is definitely looking like a very premade archetype, but I don't think that's really such a bad thing. Runeterra already has a fair few decks like that alongside the more flexible stuff, and its nice to have a variety of decks with clear identities. And even if 90% of the deck builds itself there's still gonna be a bit of optimisation around exactly which spells and techs you bring with it. Something I think people might be underestimating a bit in regards to this archetype is quite how likely it is to predict a specific card. On turn 2, with 3 Rek'sai in deck and none in hand, the chance a predict will find her is already over 24%. That's pretty decent odds considering how powerful her effect will be at that stage, and thanks to the new card that predict can cost you 0 mana. If you include the chance of her ending up on topdeck after skipping the predict, it's over 30%. But that's quite an edge case since you'd usually just be picking a different lurker instead. hit button fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 00:45
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