Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«81 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Pilchenstein posted:

It's about everything feeling good for the player using it: Toss would feel bad if you saw it throwing really good cards you were just about to draw, pilfering wouldn't feel as good if you weren't (potentially) preventing big plays your opponent was about to draw into.

I think making pilfer draw from the bottom of the deck is a bad way to fix it because the issue with it isn't "it makes Freljord sad " it's that drawing 5+ cards from anywhere in a single turn and making them cheaper is an advantage that isn't adequately balanced by "well the cards might be poo poo, you don't know", at least in my opinion. If it was more common to only draw one or two cards in a turn instead of a full on looting spree, that would make it much less harsh on Freljord anyway.

If we're going away from game feel and into balance there really isn't any pilfer decks that have been tier 1. Don't think the issue is it's too good.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

mistaya
Oct 18, 2006

Cat of Wealth and Taste


Pilfer has the same issue Ezreal decks do where it "feels" bad largely because it's a bunch of cheap cards dropped in a row, and most are played at burst speed so you just have to sit there and watch without being able to do anything in return. The normal back and forth is interrupted by "excuse me while I take half your deck for a round, no you don't get to play anything."

I think the secret problem is actually Warning Shot. Being able to play a burst speed 'plunder turns on' 0 mana card means that plunder is... trivially easy to turn on BEFORE your attack round, and you can still play stuff like Riptide Rex on curve without having to bank mana.

Like I'm not saying pilfer is broken or OP, because it isn't. But it is annoying and unfun to play against and there's probably ways to make it less so.

neaden
Nov 4, 2012


Pilchenstein posted:

It's about everything feeling good for the player using it: Toss would feel bad if you saw it throwing really good cards you were just about to draw, pilfering wouldn't feel as good if you weren't (potentially) preventing big plays your opponent was about to draw into.

I think making pilfer draw from the bottom of the deck is a bad way to fix it because the issue with it isn't "it makes Freljord sad " it's that drawing 5+ cards from anywhere in a single turn and making them cheaper is an advantage that isn't adequately balanced by "well the cards might be poo poo, you don't know", at least in my opinion. If it was more common to only draw one or two cards in a turn instead of a full on looting spree, that would make it much less harsh on Freljord anyway.

Toss would be better if it went from the top down since it would increase the probability of drawing a champion.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

Sedisp posted:

If we're going away from game feel and into balance there really isn't any pilfer decks that have been tier 1. Don't think the issue is it's too good.
Well yeah, my whole point is that it not being a very strong play most of the time doesn't mean it's balanced on the rare occasions when it effectively ends the game with no recourse for the opponent. Obviously if what you want to do is win games in master consistently, you don't pick the dumb gimmick that's designed around thoroughly demoralising your opponent 5% of the time (or whatever).

neaden posted:

Toss would be better if it went from the top down since it would increase the probability of drawing a champion.
Maybe? Would definitely feel worse though

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Its kind of interesting right now you can take:

Precious Pet
Legion Saboteur
Crimson Disciple
Imperial Demolitionist
Legion Grenadier
Transfusion
Noxian Fervor
Decimate (optional)

And mix it with pretty much any other faction and end up with a real deck. There's the obvious PnZ version everyone knows, you can mix it with Bilgewater for Fizz/MF/Jagged Butcher/Powder Monkey, with Freljord for Omen Hawk/Ruthless Raider/Fury of the North (I've been using this one a lot with Iron Juggernaut for fury value), with Ionia for elusives, Swim added this to an aggressive SI deck today with Hapless/Kalista/Elise/Ravenous Butcher/Cursed Keeper/Blighted Caretaker/Prankster, oddly enough it is the Demacia version that I have trouble making work (obviously you start with Lucian/Fleetfeather/Brightsteel Protector but I get lost from there).

No Wave fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jun 4, 2020

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Pilchenstein posted:

Well yeah, my whole point is that it not being a very strong play most of the time doesn't mean it's balanced on the rare occasions when it effectively ends the game with no recourse for the opponent.

Nut draw gonna nut draw don't think it's a good idea to balance cards around extreme edge cases.

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

Sedisp posted:

Nut draw gonna nut draw don't think it's a good idea to balance cards around extreme edge cases.
I disagree entirely. Even when it doesn't draw a game ending combo, it's still overpowered to draw so many cards and reduce their cost so easily with absolutely no counterplay and "welp, you lost this game instantly" or "welp, you'll lose this game eventually due to your opponent's sudden huge resource advantage" aren't balanced just because "it probably won't do that next time it happens to you"

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



mistaya posted:

I want to like this Sej/MF deck so much but I keep having the worst draws imaginable, is it a deck that just poo poo-draws out a lot or am I playing it completely wrong somehow?

I wouldn't say it poo poo-draws a lot but, like Elites before it, it's a pretty linear deck that wants to get units out on curve and doesn't have a lot of comeback if your opponent can establish an early board presence and you can't. That makes the poo poo-draws feel a lot worse than other decks poo poo-draws, because you don't even get the false hope that you can still pull out a win. for me that's personally enough of a turnoff to make me play other decks instead. No question that it's strong though

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004





Yes.... yes........

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


After listening to the voice lines I can't see Slotbot as anything but Slutbot.

Just take a listen at 18:14 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIFwE30Mebk#t=1093s

Finicums Wake
Mar 13, 2017



mistaya posted:

I want to like this Sej/MF deck so much but I keep having the worst draws imaginable, is it a deck that just poo poo-draws out a lot or am I playing it completely wrong somehow?

are you playing the version with the plunder package, or the one with scouts? i've found the latter to be more consistent. either way, i prefer the sej/vlad or sej/ashe decks, as far as that champ goes

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Pilchenstein posted:

I disagree entirely. Even when it doesn't draw a game ending combo, it's still overpowered to draw so many cards and reduce their cost so easily with absolutely no counterplay and "welp, you lost this game instantly" or "welp, you'll lose this game eventually due to your opponent's sudden huge resource advantage" aren't balanced just because "it probably won't do that next time it happens to you"

Inconsistency is definitely an element of balance though. The fact that they can't do it consistently is a big issue with the archetype.There are entire decks where you either don't want to pilfer for a loooong time (Deep decks) or where 80% of their draws are dead draws (ephemerals)

Besides maybe upping the cost of pilfer by one or drawing from the bottom I can't see how you change the archetype without killing it.

srulz
Jun 23, 2013


Pilchenstein posted:

I disagree entirely. Even when it doesn't draw a game ending combo, it's still overpowered to draw so many cards and reduce their cost so easily with absolutely no counterplay and "welp, you lost this game instantly" or "welp, you'll lose this game eventually due to your opponent's sudden huge resource advantage" aren't balanced just because "it probably won't do that next time it happens to you"

Drawing from an opponent's deck is almost always worse than drawing from your own deck due to deck synergy etc. Of course, this is a game in which pretty much every cards played in Constructed are pretty good, so above effect is lessened.

However, you do ignore the fact that Black Market Merchant has to already exist on board for opp to have the "huge resource advantage" due to cost reduction. Plus opp has to usually set up a turn or 2 in advance & even spend their own cards (eg. Warning Shot) just to gain this card advantage. Which, due to the random factor, may not actually be worth it at all. So yeah.

Sedisp posted:

Inconsistency is definitely an element of balance though. The fact that they can't do it consistently is a big issue with the archetype.There are entire decks where you either don't want to pilfer for a loooong time (Deep decks) or where 80% of their draws are dead draws (ephemerals)

Besides maybe upping the cost of pilfer by one or drawing from the bottom I can't see how you change the archetype without killing it.

Upping the cost of Pilfer by 1 will probably kill it.

Drawing from the bottom almost had no effects other than buffing Freljord.

My proposal is to make the cards drawn from your decks to be known. That's all it takes to balance it I believe, since the reason why it's so good is because you simply don't know to play around what cards exactly.

I think the devs should probably be more aggressive in making small changes like above in weekly patches, rather than waiting for 2 weeks to dump a whole lot of changes at once. Maybe only applicable to cards in the watchlist or something.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013


Toss should burn champions. There ought to be a risk of decking yourself.

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




doingitwrong posted:

Toss should burn champions.

No.

mistaya
Oct 18, 2006

Cat of Wealth and Taste


Finicums Wake posted:

are you playing the version with the plunder package, or the one with scouts? i've found the latter to be more consistent. either way, i prefer the sej/vlad or sej/ashe decks, as far as that champ goes

I was playing scouts but I came to the same conclusion you did and swapped to the Ashe/Sej variant and I've been having a lot more fun/success with it. Sejuani rarely levels in the Ashe deck but you don't need her to because Ashe can carry a win on her own and adding a fat body with Icevale Archer's effect late game can often just force a surrender.

The Lord of Hats
Aug 22, 2010



doingitwrong posted:

Toss should burn champions. There ought to be a risk of decking yourself.

Hm, yes, I too would like for Nautilus and basically the entire Deep archetype to be terrible.

Servaetes
Sep 10, 2003

True enemy or false friend?


Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

After listening to the voice lines I can't see Slotbot as anything but Slutbot.

Just take a listen at 18:14 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIFwE30Mebk#t=1093s

Naut's reaction to Fizz dying is great holy poo poo

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

srulz posted:

Upping the cost of Pilfer by 1 will probably kill it.

Drawing from the bottom almost had no effects other than buffing Freljord.

My proposal is to make the cards drawn from your decks to be known. That's all it takes to balance it I believe, since the reason why it's so good is because you simply don't know to play around what cards exactly.
Upping the cost of pilfer by one would probably be absolutely fine. Stolen cards being face up would be good but on its own isn't a fix.

I get that in top end play drawing five or six cards from your opponent while maybe making them cheaper (or even free) isn't super strong because of deck synergy but for average players it's a much bigger power swing and is far too easy to pull off. Making the stolen cards fleeting might be a good option, since it limits the effectiveness of spending all your mana on pilfer, unless you have multiple merchants on board, which is actually counterable.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


Fleeting would actually make it unplayable, congrats, you just played a merchant and got a unit from your opponent that is 1 mana higher then you can play it, you will get to die knowing he has one less card in his deck, hope you didn't have to spend any mana at all to trigger your plunder effects either.

Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jun 4, 2020

Pilchenstein
May 17, 2012

So your plan is for half of us to die?


Hot Rope Guy

Most of bilgewater's other draw is fleeting isn't it?

mistaya
Oct 18, 2006

Cat of Wealth and Taste


Make Merchant a 2/3 and his cost reduction only applies to the card he draws himself. There. BMM's stacking is what makes the whole thing stupid.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013


The Lord of Hats posted:

Hm, yes, I too would like for Nautilus and basically the entire Deep archetype to be terrible.

As it is, itís just a boring race. Either you can power through their stalls, or they thin their deck to have only low costed big bodies with removal and evasion attached for the rest of the game. Thereís no back and forth to the deck. If toss could burn champions it would still be powerful but there would be a small hope of coming back and decking them.

Maybe I donít get the vision of toss. It seems to me like itís meant to be a risk reward mechanism where you burn through your deck and then have powerful bodies. But Nautilus and Maoki both counter that risk with their level up abilities, so maybe I donít get the deck at all.

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Pilchenstein posted:

Most of bilgewater's other draw is fleeting isn't it?

The only fleeting draws are pool shark which is a on summon effect and pick a card which is a three mana for three. Both are for next round.

Brash gambler is a draw two fleeting on attack.


doingitwrong posted:

As it is, it’s just a boring race. Either you can power through their stalls, or they thin their deck to have only low costed big bodies with removal and evasion attached for the rest of the game. There’s no back and forth to the deck. If toss could burn champions it would still be powerful but there would be a small hope of coming back and decking them.

Kill them before they get there? Your suggestion makes the archetype worthless.

Boxman
Sep 27, 2004

Big fan of


Sedisp posted:

Kill them before they get there? Your suggestion makes the archetype worthless.

Most of the Toss cards are fine-to-good even without deep turned on, though. That being said, just removing the non-champ clause from Toss would probably make the archetype pretty bad, yeah.

The more appropriate change would probably be to do that, but shave power from Deep and make it easier to get Deep. The end result would be flattening the deck's power level a bit (as opposed to the huge power spike of Deep+near-instant "I Win" champs) which...I'm not really sure how I feel about. It's definitely frustrating to watch the deck jerk itself off for 5 turns then just suddenly become an unstoppable death ball but I also play Ez/Karma so I'm probably not allowed to be too salty about it.

ShaneB
Oct 21, 2002



My quest today was a 1500 play 6 Demacia champs.

I forgot how good the Demacia cards are, lol

Finicums Wake
Mar 13, 2017



protip: don't try to ladder while drunk lol

Sedisp
Jun 20, 2012




Boxman posted:

Most of the Toss cards are fine-to-good even without deep turned on, though.

Uhhhh

Not really. Their cards are all pretty below average till they go deep. Abyssal eye is probably the best one and there are definitely better five drops

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013


Sea monsters arenít toss cards.

Boxman
Sep 27, 2004

Big fan of


doingitwrong posted:

Sea monsters aren’t toss cards.

I actually did mean cards with Deep (well, and the champs). for some reason it feels weird to me that salvage is probably the best card draw in the game though.

EDIT: Forgot about progress day lol

Sedisp posted:

Uhhhh

Not really. Their cards are all pretty below average till they go deep. Abyssal eye is probably the best one and there are definitely better five drops

Oh there are definitely better cards at the price point (there had better be, since they have Deep), but my point is that you don't absolutely hate playing them without deep. Like, Devourer is going to find a target a pretty solid percent of the time, and you're playing Hoarder and Terror of the Tides for the effect as much as the body. It's not that they can necessarily win without going Deep, but they definitely have more than their share of ability to stall out while providing pressure.

My point wasn't to say omg deep busted nerf now, it was to point out "lol just kill them" is a silly thing to write. It's not trivial. I'm still curious how the archetype would look if you just made the Deep condition less powerful but riskier and easier to get to.

mistaya
Oct 18, 2006

Cat of Wealth and Taste


It's counter-intuitive but don't even consider decking to be a win con against a Deep deck. It's basically impossible to last long enough to deck them once they get into deep mode. You need to go faster than a deep deck to win, there is no slower.

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



I think Deep and Toss on the surface look like mill mechanics but it's really, really rare for that to actually be relevant in-game (maybe more common in the mirror?) -- more so it feels like a way for them to add a new "resource" to the game in terms of the threshold mechanic of "how close is your deck to Deep?" -- outside of stuff like Treasure cards and Nautilus's level-up effect, the actual tossing itself is irrelevant to most games

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


With all the random card stealing, random treasures, undyielding spirits and such, expeditions are a real pleasure to play lately.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Shwqa
Feb 13, 2012



Man I just had super unlucky expedition game where I went 5 rounds with a heimerdinger in hand and not drawing any spells. My deck still had :

Mystic shot x5
Flash of Brillance x4
Statikk shot x2
Gotcha
Hextech
Another heimerdinger
Ezreal x2


I even played a backalley barkeep for a chance at a spell. Meanwhile my opponent drew three 5 mana 6/5 fearsome and then Darius. Oh well, so it goes.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«81 »