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Boba Pearl posted:I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards.
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May 26, 2020 02:43
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goferchan posted:It's listed as one of the worst matchups on the mobalytics tracker so maybe not, lol, I know it's easier to remember the good games where you win. No way it's as dismal as the 35% win rate they show suggests, though I’ve been playing a lot of Swain/Sej too, and I think it’s fun because it’s sort of hybrid aggro/control that has a potential answer for everything. So you get (and remember) those fun games against burn where you pull the right cards at the right times to keep their board under control and beat them to 0, and you get those fun games against control where you get the right cards at the right times to burn them down or flip Swain ASAP and go ham. (I also think the fun factor of the deck is in big part due to how consistently you can level up both heroes, even in games you end up losing.) But the key is always ‘the right cards at the right times.’ The big weakness of the deck is basically no card draw (unless you play shared spoils, I guess), so if your hand sucks, you can also lose against anything. There’s definitely games where you end up with like Sejuani, the Leviathan, a transfusion and an elixir of iron in your opening hand against burn and it’s pretty much over from round 1.
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May 26, 2020 03:07
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Sedisp posted:This is untrue. I can pull up the weekly meta reports I guess but broadly it's gone from high 50s to mid 50s. Perhaps I'm wrong that Burn is a great deck to provide a foundation to a meta, but I think we are in for a lot of 12 minute grindfests with Atrocity finishes or Karma bullshit, and everyone will wonder where the check on these decks went.
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May 26, 2020 03:10
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I was unaware that the AI battles counted for weekly rewards. Whoops.
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May 26, 2020 03:11
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Boba Pearl posted:I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards. Rearguard won't see play but I'm sure boomcrew rookie is still viable for causing damage and rearguard can be replaced by something else.
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May 26, 2020 03:21
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I entirely stopped playing constructed Runeterra after tiring of burn being everywhere so maybe it's not just win rates but literal user retention in having a bunch of people who aren't solid players getting repeatedly stomped by a cheap, extremely fast, almost entirely uninteractive deck with no champs moving on to other poo poo. Expedition isn't perfect on balance but at least it's a bunch of extra wrenches thrown into the works so it isn't just keeping track of which meta cards my meta opponent has meta played meta or just losing 90% of my games vs a specific deck because all of their stuff is basically "spend two mana to do four nexus damage or maybe six or eight actually why not" To paraphrase Swim in a recent vid on the changes, burn makes you stop playing the videogame quickly, and people want to play the videogame.
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May 26, 2020 03:28
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ShaneB posted:Perhaps I'm wrong that Burn is a great deck to provide a foundation to a meta, but I think we are in for a lot of 12 minute grindfests with Atrocity finishes or Karma bullshit, and everyone will wonder where the check on these decks went. You should not balance a bo1 format around aggro that does not care about actually hitting the nexus. It is far too consistent to be the fulcrum and teching against it leads to dead draws. This is fine if you can remove those cards in game two but since you can't it leads to a lot of non games. People hate a control deck that controls their game plan burn pretty much does the same thing except it just gets to ignore your game plan while doing it. There's no early sweepers that deal more than one damage so you can't even punish burn for getting too greedy. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 05:46 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 05:42
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Boba Pearl posted:I don't have enough resources to build a new deck so if Burn gets nerfed to oblivion, I won't have a way to generate cards. These changes probably mean it won't be an optimal choice for climbing the ranked ladder anymore but it absolutely hasn't been nerfed into oblivion.
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May 26, 2020 06:05
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i'm much more sympathetic to having strong, non-interactive burn decks warping the meta in a bo3 sideboard format. but as it is right now it's just auto-lose (or nearly so) for so many near-viable decks that it seems unhealthy for the meta. there definitely needs to be an aggro deck to keep slower control decks in check--something like spiders or jinx/draven from last meta--but this one was either too strong or the wrong sort of strong. if not for both nerfs hitting ranger and the bear, i could've seen scouts taking that place. or maybe a lucian deck or something. i'm pretty sure there will still be aggro tho, even if it's tier 2 for this round of balances
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May 26, 2020 07:54
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while i'm not sure people would like it due to the time it takes to play out, a bo3 format with sideboards seems like it'd be good for the game in a lot of ways
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May 26, 2020 07:57
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I would not like a bo3 mode to feel mandatory in the least. I would like SMOrcs to feel unwelcome and their decks to get nerfed. I'm pretty happy with things as they are right now, with 1.2 coming up.
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May 26, 2020 10:22
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Just browsing the meta stats and I have to say anyone who was justifying burn was living on a different planet.
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May 26, 2020 12:11
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Yeah, Fast/Aggro Burn was absolutely not a question of it was "OP", it literally got to ignore 90% of game state and was genuinely too uninteractive for a game that wants to thrive on, y'know, how cards interact. I do think the Legion Rearguard nerf might have been a bit too overboard but I can absolutely believe there was data showing some abnormal player dropoff.
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May 26, 2020 14:04
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Pilchenstein posted:Burn is the only reliable counter to everyone just stalling until they get their instant-win combo off though, which is super loving boring. Sure philosophically, I get that aggro and burn have a place in the game. But a deck that can goldfish you in 2 attacks is suppressing way more than late game OTK decks, especially when a huge chunk of its face damage is unblock-able and repeatable. This game doesn't have efficient removal. It has heroes that level up after effects like "damage the nexus on 5 different rounds". It's clear that their design goals are for the game going to at least round 6 or y, ending decisively by round 9 or so. Burn was too efficient for that.
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May 26, 2020 14:10
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my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust my platinum chest:  what the christ
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May 26, 2020 14:10
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Firebert posted:my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust Is the 2 champs plat chest hardcoded?
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May 26, 2020 15:06
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Ah I misread the changes to Karma, thought she was getting a health buff with a cost increase. Discard everything I said before. Also nice chest open
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May 26, 2020 16:01
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doingitwrong posted:Sure philosophically, I get that aggro and burn have a place in the game.  For the record, I'd much rather games went on longer and had more interesting back and forth but I'm not sure how practical that is given the current card set - why risk playing an interesting game when it's safer to stall out until your game winning combo goes off? Firebert posted:my diamond chest: like a million common wildcards and dust 
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May 26, 2020 16:09
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Pilchenstein posted:I got four cards that weren't dusted out of a rank 13 vault. The game really needs a screen that shows you exactly how much you're missing to complete the full set because I probably have more than enough shards/wildcards to do it at this point but going through the full list of cards and counting is just Yeah, I got 5 out of 13+3 this week. I use a spreadsheet from a reddit person to track it all. I just don't care about 98% of the remaining cards I have unowned even though I can fully craft them all. Just banking everything until the next set I guess. I have 88 more common wilds than I have left unowned, and finally even 4 more rares and epic wilds than unowned.
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May 26, 2020 16:49
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Pilchenstein posted:I mean, that's fair but the issue a lot of people have with burn is "it kills me with unblockable damage over a number of turns before the game goes long enough for me to kill it with unblockable damage in a single turn" and I'd argue that maybe there's a common problem they could address there, instead of making sure every unit burn plays can be removed by a single spell before it does anything 1TK stall decks are/were nowhere near as much of a problem as burn was, so this is a false equivalence. You don't like playing against slow decks, which is fine, but there were more people who did not like playing against SMOrc blowouts and I guess with the numbers backing it up the devs agreed and decided to do something about it. As someone else said, the game's core champion design seems to be pointing towards the devs wanting a median game time of 6+ turns with averages ending on 9+, and if that's at all true aggro/burn will never be allowed to be a major meta definer. Which is great. If people want the SMOrc experience they can always play HS, where aggro metas aren't touched for half a year or more whenever they develop. Good riddance to THAT, I hope Runeterra aggro/burn never rises from the trashcan where it belongs.
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May 26, 2020 18:04
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Pilchenstein posted:I mean, that's fair but the issue a lot of people have with burn is "it kills me with unblockable damage over a number of turns before the game goes long enough for me to kill it with unblockable damage in a single turn" and I'd argue that maybe there's a common problem they could address there, instead of making sure every unit burn plays can be removed by a single spell before it does anything I really wish this "people just want to OTK" bullshit as an argument against nerfing oppressively powerful fast decks would stop. It's literally came up in every thread or forum of every CCG I've played and it's always wrong. I want to have minion combat with interesting decisions. I want to have my life total be a resource that is also spent by my opponents depending on their own gameplan, but if most games end exclusively because my opponent could spend a single resource in a couple turns regardless of what I do, it's me just playing a game I lose constantly with no choice. That's not why I play games. I swear to God I wouldn't be surprised if people saying this poo poo are people who are compulsively competitive and have a psychological dependence on playing as little of the game with as little interaction with other people as possible so they can be Best Nerd and so anything that reduces that makes them irrationally upset. Or they just have differing opinions I dunno EDIT: some words Locke Dunnegan fucked around with this message at 19:15 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 18:06
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KazigluBey posted:1TK stall decks are/were nowhere near as much of a problem as burn was, so this is a false equivalence. You don't like playing against slow decks, which is fine, but there were more people who did not like playing against SMOrc blowouts and I guess with the numbers backing it up the devs agreed and decided to do something about it. As someone else said, the game's core champion design seems to be pointing towards the devs wanting a median game time of 6+ turns with averages ending on 9+, and if that's at all true aggro/burn will never be allowed to be a major meta definer. Which is great. I'll also mention that burn was not nerfed out of relevance and you may be disappointed tomorrow. No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:20 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 18:17
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My favorite thing about burn is it let a streamer who never played the game before easily climb during twitch rivals.
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May 26, 2020 18:23
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I guess you can say the same about They Who Endure decks.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 18:25
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One is a tier one deck with a favorable match up against literally 80% of the meta and one isn't.
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May 26, 2020 18:31
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No Wave posted:Ezrael was absolutely everywhere the month before Rising Tides came around, this isn't an idle speculation. The amount of burn on ladder was also like nothing compared to how much Hecarim there was back in the day which is why I couldn't care less about its 16% meta representation (which roughly translated to one game vs burn per day for me). I've read this three times and I can't find a point. Are you refuting a made-up argument that aggro decks are the only kinds of decks that can be oppressive? Or that burn might be bad but don't complain because it could be worse? I literally have no clue what you are trying to say 
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May 26, 2020 19:13
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well I definitely suck at expedition. I drafted two unyielding spirits and the spell that doubles your health and power and got zero wins. Focus on the curve folks.
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May 26, 2020 19:36
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Munkaboo posted:well I definitely suck at expedition. I drafted two unyielding spirits and the spell that doubles your health and power and got zero wins. Focus on the curve folks. The health/power doubler feels awful in everything I've ever tried putting it in. A slow spell that targets one of your things needs to do a lot more than that and/or cost less than 6 Mana.
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May 26, 2020 20:29
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No Wave posted:I'll also mention that burn was not nerfed out of relevance and you may be disappointed tomorrow. I know, aggro is the roach of card game design and always finds a way. I'm sympathetic to people who use it to climb ladder as quickly and efficiently as possible, I just tremendously dislike seeing meta-tuned burn/aggro kicking about in Normal. Also Hecarim got the nerfs he probably needed, and they'll hit Ez soon enough since everything that's ever been mentioned in one of their "We're keeping an eye on-" patchnote sections HAS been adjusted. As long as they keep aggro/burn under control too, I'm happy, even if I personally wish there was a way for me to play the game and never have to play a single match against it ever again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAkJ8w2a80Q Locke Dunnegan posted:I really wish this "people just want to OTK" bullshit as an argument against nerfing oppressively powerful fast decks would stop. It's literally came up in every thread or forum of every CCG I've played and it's always wrong. 100% agree.
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May 26, 2020 21:27
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Locke Dunnegan posted:
Agree with all of this. Edit: oops not Hearthstone thread. Sloppy fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 26, 2020 |
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May 26, 2020 22:48
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I don't like the greedy arms races that formats without a good aggro deck tend to turn into. But burn was a little over the line before the nerfs. I would prefer it if MF scouts or something along those was the aggro deck to beat.
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May 26, 2020 23:08
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I was actually arguing that they should maybe nerf aggro and OTK stall because I prefer minion combat with interesting decisions, but go off chief For what it's worth, I've been playing Bilgewater/SI almost exclusively on ladder.
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May 27, 2020 00:33
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Needing burn was necessary, but I wish there was another aggro deck around other than burn. Everything else is midrange or slower.
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May 27, 2020 00:37
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Pilchenstein posted:I was actually arguing that they should maybe nerf aggro and OTK stall because I prefer minion combat with interesting decisions, but go off chief Yeah I came back to it later and realized I kinda went off venting on something close enough to something that drives me up the goddamn wall. Sorry.
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May 27, 2020 00:43
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kingcobweb posted:Needing burn was necessary, but I wish there was another aggro deck around other than burn. Everything else is midrange or slower. Elusives doesn't suck. Neither do some aggressive demacia based decks.
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May 27, 2020 00:46
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ShaneB posted:Elusives doesn't suck. Neither do some aggressive demacia based decks. I can't find a happy medium. I went from burn to a Lux Karma (homemade, everyone seemed to have their own spin on it so I made my own with lifesteal/elusives to survive early/mid to making them undying with a few safety recalls for countering the same (though a random created detain was what saved me from an invincible vi earlier). I'm having a lot of fun with it, it's a very reactive deck. Games also take 20 minutes now though. The only 2 games I've lost so far in casual play have been against burn and a sejuani deck against which I drew 3 judgements and 2 other 6 mana cards my first turns. It's fun but sometimes I just want to either finish a game in 6-8 turns or die trying.
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May 27, 2020 09:33
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Yeah it's hard for me to play control decks for long without doing some faster ones which is why I always liked having Elusives (in whatever incarnation) as a nice brain cleanser but OTK is 100% dead with stand alone at 4 and the burn nerfs were pretty brutal. Boomcrew Rookie definitely deserved it but a 3/1 can't block is a VERY bad card, it's not gonna do anything except die to vile feast and you can't tap it for transfusion or the deal 1 to a unit/2 to the nexus anymore either. I get that Teemo can pseudo-rep him but teemo's also 1 hp so has the same problems.
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May 28, 2020 00:04
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I don't know what the gently caress happened with peoples' brains since the balance patch but I just played against seemingly the same Ashe/Sej Frel/Nox freeze midrange deck five times in a row. My lovely homebrew fizz/lee/tf slingers deck keeps stealing their buffed units and Ashe arrows which is funny and also makes me sad they didn't touch Pilfer, though I know it's on the docket. Yummy yummy arrows EDIT: Using Return on a stolen Plaza Guardian is a 6/6 Quick Attack that summons at burst speed Locke Dunnegan fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 03:51
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Was reading through an article about Valorant and I saw this statement: “Riot Games' recent dip into the digital CCG genre has demonstrated that not all its ventures are smash hits, even if you happened to create a game as successful as League of Legends.” How is Legends of Runeterra doing overall? I just started it, finished the tutorials and have played a few AI games. I’m enjoying it thus far.
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May 28, 2020 13:45
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:Was reading through an article about Valorant and I saw this statement: “Riot Games' recent dip into the digital CCG genre has demonstrated that not all its ventures are smash hits, even if you happened to create a game as successful as League of Legends.” How is Legends of Runeterra doing overall? I just started it, finished the tutorials and have played a few AI games. I’m enjoying it thus far. 5 million people have downloaded the Android app alone.
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May 28, 2020 14:57
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