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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
This is a real important topic because I 100% agree this is true and I've also had nerds tell me with total conviction that it absolutely doesn't matter because from the universe's perspective I never died and also harry kim said he felt like he had a consciousness in the transporter or some poo poo one time.

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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
This entire moral headache goes away if you just do away with the disintegration part of using the transporter and your society commits to having an army of clones.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
The only transporter I would accept would be Jesus Christ enveloping me in a miracle envelope, licking a massive astral stamp and affixing it to my forehead and then direct mailing me straight to the lazarrian topless beach world

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
This thread is now about how cool having the ability to make perfect copies of yourself would be.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I'd only have one clone. We'd split everything fifty fifty and both go off into the world to make our fortunes. Later our children would meet at summer camp and then try to get us to have dinner dates and go camping and eventually over a romantic dinner I and myself would share a kiss.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
The transporter could probably fix all of your mental and physical problems though if you subscribe to the notion of the physical mind.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I think that just because I'm not conscious of being dead doesn't mean I don't experience it!

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I see what you're saying, but like lets say I get hit by a gigantic fuckoff rock or something instead of stepping into a transporter. I'm dead as hell. Now let's say that this happens while I'm in my bed sleeping. Once could argue that 'I never experienced death' sure sure, but I'm still dead as poo poo. I guess the point I'm making is 'experiencing' death is completely immaterial to whether or not you are dead. Just because in the moment I step into the transporter and I die I'm instantaneously dead and my consciousness has ceased and I am not in some kinda astral plane sitting around thinking 'man it sucks to be dead' doesn't really mean that me dying wasn't, to me, a big deal. It also doesn't mean it didn't happen to me or that in any way I've sidestepped the whole 'does it suck to be dead' question*.


*In this case I'm defining 'does it suck to be dead' as 'can I continue drinking myself to death? if no, it sucks to be dead.'

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

OwlFancier posted:

Yes, you're dead, and everyone else will experience you being dead, and the things you might have done will never be done, and those things are bad. But it's not really bad for you. You wouldn't know the difference.

But if you got hit with a big fuckoff rock and then a perfect copy of you reappeared in the same spot and the old one disappeared, aside from being a bit confused, nobody would notice or care, least of all you, because one of you would be dead and not in a position to care, and the other would be alive with just as much sense of being you as you have right now.

Essentially I guess I'm arguing that "you" can never "be dead" in a sense because "you" cease to exist at the moment of death, so the only way you can be dead is from other people's perspective. You can fear death, and other people can experience your death, and a lot of the time the bits leading up to dying suck poo poo, and all of that's bad, but you personally can't actually become dead, it doesn't really make sense if you really think about it.

Of course if you don't really think about it then yeah it's still weird, but if you're not really thinking about it as a star trek person then transporting is totally normal and nearly everyone comes out exactly as they went in and they don't seem dead so eh, whatever :v:

I'm still not getting in that transporter Geordi.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I don't think it's controversial to say that my lifeless body, though no longer capable of producing electrical signal or chemical reaction, is still me. Therefore I still experience death even if I never realized that it happened. The reason for this is that death is a blanket term for anything that is no longer alive and simply by being alive right now it is impossible that at some point I won't experience death, regardless of whether I can experience, have an opinion or form any kind of a process with comprehending it.

edit- cleaned up the language a bit

reignofevil fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 29, 2020

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

CainFortea posted:

Actually technically the particles making up the atoms in your body are always forming and reforming which means that we actually don't exist as the literal same person from moment to moment so if you wrong people were right then we die billions of times per second.

Think about it.

I don't think that this process makes me dead because despite it happening to me I continue to drink. Getting hit with a giant rock makes it very clear that I'm dead because my alcoholism ceases. The transporter complicates the process somewhat by making a perfect clone of my liver and my alcoholism but I assure you I am not fooled by this. My atoms forming and reforming is very different than being instantaneously converted into energy on 100% of your bodymass.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

CainFortea posted:

It's not controversial, just wrong.

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

Why

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I've assembled a crack team of experts!

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

CainFortea posted:

Because you aren't just your meat bits.

I really am though. Sure those meat bits are capable of sending electro-chemical signals but ultimately there is no woo woo soul or anything we just are a collection of neurons that happen to fire off in response to a variety of stimuli. That's what life is and that's why when you get a concussion it's bad because you permanently damage the part of yourself that makes up your ability to respond to stimuli.


Edit- And once those bits die, you die. Once you die, regardless of if you still maintain an opinion on it, you experience the process of death and begin to rot. The parts of you that once functioned cease to do so but that did not make them suddenly not you in any meaningful way.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

OwlFancier posted:

If that's true it's pretty hosed up that your friends and family bury you in the ground or set you on fire once you stop moving.

That's sort of the whole point of the funerary process is to help people to process the disconnect between you, who existed while you were alive, and your corpse, which looks like you, but is not you.

That's only hosed up if you've got some predisposition to not being in the ground or on fire imo. People have different thoughts on this, my mother wanted turned into a diamond after she died and split into two so that both I and my brother could carry her around as a ring.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Asimov posted:

Even if you just normally exist on earth, practically all of your atomic matter has been changed out or "regenerated" after a few decades. One's beliefs, values, and other ineffable qualities also change dramatically. How similar is 5-year-old you to graduating high-school you? How about 15 years after that? You've died the small death a thousand times, and the belief that you have a continuous unaltered "soul" or consciousness is malarkey. But on the other hand, that belief is what makes us human and we can accomplish various things due to our motivations that are tied to our ideas of being independent, rational living beings. Thank you for listening to my Ted talk.

This feels like throwing my hands in the air and saying 'well you're always changing!', the problem here is I can conceive of some of my traits as fundamental and I can view death through the lens of whether those traits can continue to express themselves. Just because I grew out of tomato soup doesn't mean that the person who that liked tomato soup died a 'small death', rather one tiny part of me was shed as dead taste bud cells and replaced by another. Sure sure if you look at me across the decades I've shed _all_ of my bodies cells from a decade prior but I didn't do it all at once and my body never ceased the behaviors I'd label as fundamental. You can take your sailboat dilemma elsewhere we can boil this down entirely to the utility of me getting good and plastered and notably of our three scenarios, full cellular replacement via natural cell splitting can happen every decade and yet I'm still getting drunk. The giant rock squishing me scenario leads to a cessation of my fundamental behavior, being a drunk, and while the transporter may seem to complicate things by creating an identical alcoholic the moment I die it doesn't really change any of the important facts re: me continuing to drink.


As a follow up what precisely is a 'small death'. It sounds like a wishy washy term that doesn't have nearly as much importance as what we'll call Death. Note the capital D because that's the 'big death'

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
Oh hell no I thought the idea was dumb as hell and creepy I'm just saying that you can't account for what people believe about being dead there's all kinds of thoughts about how much of a corpse represents 'yourself' and it's part of why we have laws against defiling graves!

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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
Talking about what constitutes being dead precisely is really fun and I'm glad to get to do it here on these dead gay forums :)

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