|
Stink Billyums posted:the box issued to gaijin comes with a free party hat it's pretty sweet Mine came with a collar and an assignment to dance next to a guy with a street organ
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 01:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
haha a few years ago worked at a Korean company where the walking teacher gave me demerit points cause I was laid back on a yoga mat with my legs crossed when he was giving us a big hot air lecture about nothing. My friend defended me by saying "Hes American! He would cross his legs infront of the President!" This place was ultimate dog honey, as they would say. It was a taxpayer funded stable of fashion models to be used for fashion shows to promote up and coming brands, and on the model side I guess was to school us and create upstanding models out of us. Me and a French girl were the only outlanders. There was 15 guys and 25 girls. It was structured as a 9-7 job for 7 months. We had to log a daily journal. which was usually bullshit because at the beginning of the program the city was still figuring out how to broadcast digital live shows, so aside from "learning how to walk" for a couple hours all we did was hang out. People would take Yoga mat naps in the main room. This room consisted of a stage at one end, red carpet floor, with mirrored walls so you could see yourself walking. We were under the authority of two Walking teachers, a middle aged man and woman. They would give us assignments which basically consisted of taking selfies. The man was full of himself and would strut around preening and give big lectures that I couldn't follow. I could go on about this place, French girl and I would give each other the look sometimes, shake our heads and muse "somebody gotta make a drama about this"
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 02:59
|
|
|
Renreeja posted:I could go on about this place, French girl and I would give each other the look sometimes, shake our heads and muse "somebody gotta make a drama about this" 
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 03:07
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 03:17
|
|
|
Going abroad to get my masters at Korean walking school.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 03:43
|
|
|
how can you teach someone to walk?
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 03:48
|
|
|
Ups_rail posted:how can you teach someone to walk? If there are video instructions online, please link
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 03:57
|
|
|
Going to grad school to write my walking thesis at the university of sole.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 04:09
|
|
|
Honestly a lot of the problems you guys are describing are pretty… normal. Plenty of bureaucracies are staffed with people dodging responsibilities and avoiding the limelight and communicating poorly. It’s not just an East Asian thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 04:23
|
|
|
Mr Teatime posted:Going abroad to get my masters at Korean walking school.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 04:27
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Honestly a lot of the problems you guys are describing are pretty… normal. Plenty of bureaucracies are staffed with people dodging responsibilities and avoiding the limelight and communicating poorly. It’s not just an East Asian thing. yah, and even if there's some culturally bound or influenced bits i don't think it's super helpful to think of them as intrinsic or unique. we're all made up of the same stuff, just in varying amounts.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 04:39
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Honestly a lot of the problems you guys are describing are pretty… normal. Plenty of bureaucracies are staffed with people dodging responsibilities and avoiding the limelight and communicating poorly. It’s not just an East Asian thing. As with many things we talk about here, it's not that it doesn't exist elsewhere. It's that the scale is completely different. Like imagine going to the DMV in the US and saying you need to renew your license, and the person at the counter just says "renewing licenses is impossible" and sends you on your way. Learning that "impossible" actually just means I have to spend a couple hours making a nuisance of myself until they finally do the thing that takes five minutes was a pretty key lesson and something I did many times in Korea and China. The only time I've ever had to do that in the US was when I was getting my visa at the Korean consulate. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jan 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 04:39
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Honestly a lot of the problems you guys are describing are pretty… normal. Plenty of bureaucracies are staffed with people dodging responsibilities and avoiding the limelight and communicating poorly. It’s not just an East Asian thing. Grand Fromage posted:As with many things we talk about here, it's not that it doesn't exist elsewhere. It's that the scale is completely different. No one believes these people are fundamentally different than westerners, and for those of us the experience this stuff, we kinda understand the method to madness, it really is just a cultural difference. For example a lazy fast food worker might say "hey you paying cash or card" wait for you to say "X" and then go "I m sorry my machine is down" What they dont do is tell you "um yeah we dont sell cheeseburgers, while standing under a picture of a cheese burger"
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 05:52
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Honestly a lot of the problems you guys are describing are pretty… normal. Plenty of bureaucracies are staffed with people dodging responsibilities and avoiding the limelight and communicating poorly. It’s not just an East Asian thing. Using face as a proxy for it is a fairly uniquely-Eastern thing, though. There’s different motivating factors behind it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 08:00
|
|
|
McGavin posted:Me eating 白切鸡 at the in-law's for lunar new year dinner: It feels safe to eat most things when going to my inlaws for their new year since the dad turned almost vegan so basically everything is just a plant or mushroom really.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 08:20
|
|
|
Renreeja posted:I could go on about this place, French girl and I would give each other the look sometimes, shake our heads and muse "somebody gotta make a drama about this" Knew a french girl who moved to Finland because she liked our nature, and that both drama and speaking between the lines aren't really things done here. Had loads of anecdotes about how every day small stuff would turn into mini dramas in france. Like wanting to use a debit card instead of cash. Also she had a daugther and said the schooling system in france sucked really badly compared to here so she wasn't leaving even if she started hating it so her daughter could go to school here. She sure liked to complain about finnish food though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 08:30
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:She sure liked to complain about finnish food though. Honestly, can you blame her?
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 08:41
|
|
|
Ups_rail posted:your making me imagine how face culture would work with in a zombie movie. If the zombies are older than you, you have to let them bite you
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 08:46
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:As with many things we talk about here, it's not that it doesn't exist elsewhere. It's that the scale is completely different. Also, the kind of administrative non-response you’re describing is rampant in Europe and every other region with a dense, inflexible bucreaucy. You don’t have to be cultural essentialists.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 10:54
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:If an unmotivated employee is blowing you off and your instinct is to skip over the universal explanation of “not incentivized to give a gently caress” and reach for “hmm an eccentric East Asian people” there might be something off about you. Have you experienced it in Asia before? I mean, you make a good point, everywhere has their bureaucratic nightmares, but it's hard to describe the intensity of it and how everything shuts down completely with a stone wall "it is impossible." It's the same but also not the same. Though, I experienced it in Korea, I haven't experienced it in China. In China its been a lot more "yeah we'll get around to it" then they never get around to it. I don't know about Europe but I can say for sure, my banking experiences in Korea were just not anything I had experienced at all in America. I'm sure some people have, but gently caress if it wasn't constant "it is impossible" go to the next branch a couple blocks over "sure easy no problem" Or the "it is impossible" "no but I literally did it here last week it took 5 minutes" "no you didnt, it is impossible, it can't be done" BrainDance fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Jan 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
McGavin posted:Honestly, can you blame her? On some points (complaining about finnish beef, which is mostly grass fed, free range and ecological by most standards), yes, on others (mämmi, kalakukko) no. Full disclosure, I like mämmi.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 11:32
|
|
|
yeah but did any of you exploit the after work drinking and smoking sessions??
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 13:08
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Have you experienced it in Asia before? But I honestly don’t think that kind of surreal experience is unusually common in Asia. I’m now in the US. A few months back I called a credit bureau about an issue with my credit scores. All of the six agents I reached told me to do the thing I told them I had already tried. It made no difference explaining it to them. Part of my job is to design operational processes and my take is it’s always about system design. You talk to people who are poorly trained, weakly incentivized and loosely accountable, you get exactly the otherworldly encounters you’re describing. There’s a danger when we reach for the cultural explanation and I wish this thread wouldn’t do it so much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:Part of my job is to design operational processes and my take is it’s always about system design. You talk to people who are poorly trained, weakly incentivized and loosely accountable, you get exactly the otherworldly encounters you’re describing. There’s a danger when we reach for the cultural explanation and I wish this thread wouldn’t do it so much. Culture is a system, not something essential. You’re talking about the exact same thing. e: i respect the admonishment you’re trying to give and that we need to be cautious about extrapolating out from one or two chance encounters, etc. but culture is just the word used to describe these systems on a societal level. hypnophant fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 16:25
|
|
|
I feel like its getting to almost navel gazing levels. For example I go to the local rite aid to pick up grampa's RX the pharm tech doesnt know I used to work in a pharmacy. Me: excuse me I need grandpa's rail blood pressure pills. Tech: okay please give me his birthdate Me: feb 32 1859 Tech: okay here's your RX! Me: Hold on do you have his methotrexate? Tech: let me see....oh we havent filled it yet Me: oh whats the issue Tech: We are waiting for the doctor office to respond to the refill request Me: Oh when did you fax the doctor asking for the refill? Tech: um......9 days ago. *at this point I understand this pharmacy hasnt been following up on refill requests, and they are gonna need to call the doctors office and push the issue* Me: Well its friday and if you havent back yet, you wont get it till next week, and grandpa rail needs his medication so we're gonna have to barrow on that rx, I think 4 days should be good. Tech: *panicking because she doesnt know about barrowing and the situation just jump from what she knows* "um do you wanna go down to the drop off window?" *she s trying to escape this situation* Me: "No I dont want changed windows I just need to barrow on the RX" Pharmacist whose been standing at a near by station listening to this steps in and takes over, he allow the barrow. Now tell me all the ways the above story would go down if we apply face culture I can basically see it going with "we cant do anything because we dont exisit" Vegetable posted:But I honestly don’t think that kind of surreal experience is unusually common in Asia. I’m now in the US. A few months back I called a credit bureau about an issue with my credit scores. All of the six agents I reached told me to do the thing I told them I had already tried. It made no difference explaining it to them. yeah but they told you what they thought would slove the problem most of us are talking about the solution to the problem is to say there is no problem and to go away
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 17:18
|
|
|
now if you had guanxi you woulda went on the day so and so is working and they would know what you want, given you a nod and smile, "here you go mr ups_rail", you pay them and go on your merry way. just remember to give them stuff for chinese new year, red packets for their kids, and possibly be in a position of power and wealth yourself. alternatively refuse to leave and roll on the floor screaming this is a killing
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
I've never had to deal with this sort of thing in Asia, but it reads exactly like dealing with this sort of thing in post-soviet countries that have not updated their bureaucratic culture at all. If you just try to go through the system as a normal person following the rules you will come out with nothing, they won't help you, you'll get nowhere. You have to have an in, your uncle's cousin works for the ministry and has a friend at the service desk who can help you and deal with the whole situation in like 15 min. Otherwise it's hours of nasty old soviet era government workers straight up gaslighting you and telling you forms you need don't exist, processes you were told to follow are wrong, and the very thing you're trying to do is impossible now. Or you give a bribe. Or actually the default interface with situations like this is EXTREME YELLING. You get up in their face, they get in your face, you scream and yell for a while and eventually you get the paperwork you need. It's not a pleasant way to structure interactions like that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
At university, we had some foreign students. The two I speak of now were from India. Both quite upper middle class, a young man and a young lady. One year, they were discussing their Indian driving licenses: Bloke: Yes, I got mine, just took a few hours, went over to the Indian driving examination centre, handed the guy a few hundred rupees, got my license. Lady: Oh. My. God. You shouldn't pay bribes. It's so wrong. Bloke: Yes, I agree. But that's the only way to get your license. Lady: No it isn't, I've applied for it in the usual way. Bloke: You've applied for it. You've not received it? Lady: No. Bloke: How long has it been? Lady: Um, eight months or so? I'm sure I'll get it any day now. I don't think she ever received it in the "usual" way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
anecdotally one of the reasons 数字政府 is popular is that it avoids that kind of dysfunction (in lieu of the different kind of kafkaesque hell that results from being misclassified in someone's database) the high degree of inter-province movement also drives this, as e-government services in the richer provinces become de facto expected/demanded by people moving back home also gone are the innumerable b2b relationship building exercises in lieu of Taobao and such
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2023 21:19
|
|
|
Ups_rail posted:how can you teach someone to walk? This is a funny thing about the fashion scene in Korea, Koreans consider modeling a Skill. This has always been sortof a bane for me here becaused I'm a washed up model who was succesful in my early 20s, and of all the places I've been, New York, Paris, Milan, London, Tokyo, only Seoul has this weird thing. (I haven't been to China, but I hear it is really intense, like they expect you to speed change looks.) I'm sure its different for girls cause owning it in heels is a skill, but male models it doesn't fuckin matter as long as you dont fall or something. Same goes for posing. I get a little stressed at castings in Korea cause they always want you to "freepose". Especially if there is no shutter sound I feel like a dick posing for somebody in a flourescent lit office. This ties in to the whole Face discussion, because you are a model, you are expected to present yourself in top aesthetic form as a professional, and furthermore dressing inline with the brand you are casting for helps, because generally these clients have no imagination as far as seeing some hidden potential in a person. Contrast to NYC where you go in hungover in a stained white tshirt and the stylist or whoever knows exactly how you'll look gussied up. This could just be cause the Korean market is more "commercial" than a deeper cultural thing. So anyways, the walking teachers. I joined the program with the help of my wife who is Korean. She actually made me do the program after a photographer told her about it. Shes always booting me out on some adventure, I guess for my mental wellbeing. At the time I had memorized alot of vocabulary, but couldn't hold my own in Korean. The thing started with an audition where a crowd of black clothed models were lined up around the office portion, out into the stairwell hall and going in groups of 3 into the walking room from which was eminating frenetic, deafeningly loud techno music. Me being an outlander, the manager decided it was best to send me in alone, after trying to explain that there was some procedure I needed to follow. I won't lie, I've done big shows, I've done Prada, never broke a sweat, but this time... felt loving nervous. I was gonna have to walk for the Telvanni Council. And they were gonna be judging my ability. So I go in, on the far wall is a long table with a panel of elder Koreans appraising me. The Chairman, a few random city or media people and the walking teachers. So I proceed to completely gently caress up in front of them, walking down and back when I was supposed to do some sortof stop in the middle. I ended up walking down and back a second time, laughed awkwardly and yelled an apology, then left. At first the manager called and told me I was rejected, then called again later and told me I made it. Someone in the program went to bat for me. gently caress I haven't even gotten to the question yet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 02:27
|
|
|
Renreeja posted:This is a funny thing about the fashion scene in Korea, Koreans consider modeling a Skill. This has always been sortof a bane for me here becaused I'm a washed up model who was succesful in my early 20s, and of all the places I've been, New York, Paris, Milan, London, Tokyo, only Seoul has this weird thing. (I haven't been to China, but I hear it is really intense, like they expect you to speed change looks.) keep going Also, found the handsome goon
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 05:14
|
|
|
Steakandchips posted:At university, we had some foreign students. This is 100% true for India. Very little gets done unless you grease the wheels with a bribe, or know someone's uncle who knows someone else's brother in law who went to Uni with a clerk at the department. To add a somewhat unrelated story about India and "bribe culture" for a better word. When my Uncle died, my dad had to rush over to Bengalaru for all the funereal ceremonies and rights etc. So did my cousins, who live in America and have done so for decades. At one stage they had to get some official form or other dealing with the body from ome sort of official office, (forgive the lack of details. I was working in Korea at the time and couldn't get time off to go to India for the funeral). Anyway, dad is there helping with my cousin from San Francisco. Before going in to the office my dad told my cousin "I'll do all the talking. Because I am in a dhoti and have kept my accent. If you, the younger man in T-Shirt and shorts trys to deal with him, he will raise the price 200%." And my cousin speaks fluent Tamil and Kannada, but if the clerk had clocked him for a foreigner/expat Indian, then that would have indeed happened, with the clerk pocketing the difference. And re: all the stuff about face culture/bureaucracy in China/Korea/Japan. I have worked in all 3 places and never dealt with any real problems or issues that wouldn't have occurred anywhere else. But also I am not denying that they can and do exist. The only real problem I had whas when in Fuzhou they almost lost my passport due to the security guards, (despite being on camera) 'misplacing' it by ignoring the delivery guy that brought it in after getting my visa stamped. After a a full day of "It's not here.", I yelled at the supervisor, and remarkably they found it an hour later. That was one of the flashpoints that got me out of China for good. BrigadierSensible fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jan 26, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 05:30
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I've never had to deal with this sort of thing in Asia, but it reads exactly like dealing with this sort of thing in post-soviet countries that have not updated their bureaucratic culture at all. If you just try to go through the system as a normal person following the rules you will come out with nothing, they won't help you, you'll get nowhere. You have to have an in, your uncle's cousin works for the ministry and has a friend at the service desk who can help you and deal with the whole situation in like 15 min. Otherwise it's hours of nasty old soviet era government workers straight up gaslighting you and telling you forms you need don't exist, processes you were told to follow are wrong, and the very thing you're trying to do is impossible now. yeah every bureaucracy or culture or w/e has locally specific ways of blowing people off (or yeah soliciting bribes and americans in particular seem to be particularly oblivious to people soliciting bribes). it's a big cultural friction point even though it's kinda funny seeing people get the 'yeah yeah of course we can help we'd love to help just send us the details of what you need' treatment and then being really surprised when no one ever opened the emails they sent over because no one ever had any intention of doing anything. Eventually if they're lucky some local would explain to them that they just got blown off and you could see things click into place idk I don't think there's much to read into, it's a thing everywhere Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 26, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 06:40
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:idk I don't think there's much to read into, it's a thing everywhere I don't really think it is. Certainly don't find anything remotely relatable in any of this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 08:27
|
|
|
blowing people off is 100% something that happens everywhere lol. some places just make it less obvious that's what is happening than others
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 08:33
|
|
|
lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 09:12
|
|
|
Somehow, nobody dies https://twitter.com/ohshidt/status/1618419295918383105
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 09:14
|
|
|
Power Khan posted:Somehow, nobody dies That went way better than I expected, I was waiting for the lift to make an appearance, or for the whole thing to go up in flames like the Garley building.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 09:40
|
|
|
All cultures have poo poo that looks weird looking at it from the outside. There's just this gradient to it where poo poo looks weirder and weirder the further that culture is from your own baseline. There are things in (for example) Swedish culture that would seem absolutely bizarre to an American, even though our two cultures are pretty drat similar. "Face culture" in SE Asia is just an extreme example, because it's so different from similar cultural expressions in the west. I don't think it's strange or racist or whatever to say that different cultures have different ways that they deal with customers/superiors/subordinates/whatever. Like, I read an article with a perfect example: Why do Americans think that Russians are so serious and rude? Because Americans smile to be polite, and Russians smile when something's funny. So when an American meets a Russian clerk/waiter etc that's absolutely stone-faced serious, they think something is wrong and they're being met with hostility. Likewise, when a Russian meets an American clerk/waiter etc that's all smiles they think they're being laughed at.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 17:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
Why do Swedes not offer food to guests?
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2023 17:13
|
|
