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Comparisons aren't whataboutism, comparisons to justify doing the same poo poo are.
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May 16, 2020 04:47
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Actually I think you'll find that waving your wand just so and speaking the incantation "whataboutism" will completely invalidate your opponent's argument.
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May 16, 2020 04:54
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BrainDance posted:Sure, and I don't disagree, but then governments with all of that still do oppression, and it doesn't (or shouldn't) get them a pass to say "well you elected the oppressors" or "you have a theoretical but not practical means of ending the oppression" (which is something China can say, too). There are a lot of questionable things from Trump that there are a million threads about too, but I wouldn't say it's useful for me, a white dude, to say he's oppressing me. You're asking some pretty old questions dating back to the enlightenment about liberty and government power. Nobody but crazy people (Lookin at you Thomas Jefferson) think that it's reasonable or even possible to have no government at all, and it's widely understood that living in an organized society with a government requires giving up certain freedoms in exchange (This was Hobbes' key insight in Leviathan) and, obviously, what freedom means and how it can be maximized is still a subject of considerable debate today. That being said, the most widely accepted notion of liberty (Namely, John Stuart Mills') is that everyone should have the freedom to do what they want so long as their actions don't infringe on the freedom of others (for instance, a white person's freedom to operate a business does not extend to the point where they can infringe on the freedom of black people to self determination by enslaving them.) Determining at what point individual liberty begins to infringe on the liberty of others is a constant process and it is arguably at the core of Western political discourse for the past several centuries, particularly in the United States. But I don't think that it's controversial to say that right now, in the year 2020, the standards for what is considered "free" are far higher than what the Chinese government has provided, and one can easily point to countries that are widely considered "free" such as those in the West, Japan, or Taiwan (#1) as examples of how freedom can be reasonably maximized. The fact that these examples of reasonable standards exist, and the Chinese government isn't even trying to meet them, constitutes oppression above and beyond what is considered reasonable oppression in our time. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 04:58 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 04:55
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China doesn't need representative government to be a bastion of liberty, it needs another Hu Jintao. The previous 3 presidents were each 1 step forward, with Hu Jintao being the best leader China has had in centuries, and Xinnie the Pooh has been a mile of steps backwards. I got super into China in the late 2000s thanks to a Chinese expat who taught Mandarin in our school district. I had a dream about growing up to see this amazing, chaotic China that Fang Lao Shi recounted in her many tales she'd spin. A glorious subtropical sprawl of a country which was halfway between developed and developing. I became a sinoboo as I imagined the lifestyle of driving the long roads between cities, stopping off at little cafés. I wanted to experience the land where IP seemed to echo into limitless distorted knock-offs and see the cramped cities with overhanging wires. I wanted to see the little corners, secreted away to be small areas of rest and contemplation. Cheap, colorful lighting used as gaudy decoration in the more modern cities. Here was a China, seemingly the same as it was under the Tang, but propelled into the modern era. A never-ending landscape of new places to see, new people to meet. A big brother government that didn't actually care enough to be overbearing. Before this could come to fruition, when I was still a wee lad, Xi Jinping came to power. And over the last 7 years I have watched the most heartbreaking backslide that I will probably ever witness in my life. My dreams were extracted from the womb before gestation was complete, and I looked on with horror as the malformed fetus was thrown into the blender of hypernationalism. I gave up on Mandarin. I stopped lurking the Chinese net. What is the point? The tyrant has killed China's appeal. I am now old enough to see that dream come true, but it has long been nothing but a dessicated, moldy mound of mangled bones. The Neo-Tang China where you could really do anything so long as you didn't disturb the peace existed wth Hu Jintao. It existed under the noses of the foolish westerners who knew nothing of China. That China is now dead. I saw it get dragged out into the street and beaten to death. The monkeys in the CCP smashed the waking dragon's skull in with a rock, as they are wont to do. It's all so tiresome. Maybe we can try for another Sino golden age in the next century. Dont Touch ME fucked around with this message at 05:11 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 05:08
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The seeds of China's decline were sown long before Hu Jintao (particularly the debt-driven growth and the demographic time bomb) but it's true that with better governance China could have at least ended up being a bigger if not quite as rich Japan or South Korea, but nope. History is not going to look kindly on Xi Jinping.
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May 16, 2020 05:15
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Not really, this is the actual modern discussion happening in sociology about defining "oppression" that is going on right now. Well, or at least an idiot's paraphrasing of it, I don't wanna be the "read this and that book" kind of dork, but Davita Glasberg wrote some books that are sorta "Sociology college class overview" types that get into it (and none of that says China isnt oppressive), but it's not nearly as simple as "oppression is the opposite of freedom and we got that now" end of history kind of thing. For sure all those earlier thinkers are very important in the modern discussion, but they are definitely not the be all end all answer.
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May 16, 2020 05:15
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Yeah Hu Jintao is *my* president of China. I love his hair and his crooked glasses and how China was much better when he ran it, like genuinely actually.  Xi Jinping is human garbage hakimashou fucked around with this message at 05:25 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 05:23
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BrainDance posted:Not really, this is the actual modern discussion happening in sociology about defining "oppression" that is going on right now. Well, or at least an idiot's paraphrasing of it, I don't wanna be the "read this and that book" kind of dork, but Davita Glasberg wrote some books that are sorta "Sociology college class overview" types that get into it (and none of that says China isnt oppressive), but it's not nearly as simple as "oppression is the opposite of freedom and we got that now" end of history kind of thing. O dang a big discussion happening in sociology huh
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May 16, 2020 05:24
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hakimashou posted:O dang a big discussion happening in sociology huh I dunno man, it is? What do you want from me, dudes saying "aha the enlightenment guys answered all this" but, they didn't. Who else is gonna be talking about it?
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May 16, 2020 05:28
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Fojar38 posted:The seeds of China's decline were sown long before Hu Jintao (particularly the debt-driven growth and the demographic time bomb) but it's true that with better governance China could have at least ended up being a bigger if not quite as rich Japan or South Korea, but nope. Unfortunately I think it will be his predecessor who gets most of the blame. Xi Jinping will likely become a Bismarck-esque figure, lauded as a great statesman who propelled his country politically forward with a huge leap. Just like Bismarck however, Xi Jinping has consolidated his power and turned Chinese politics into a high strung den that only he can control. Whoever replaces him will be like Kaiser Willy, who's incompetence when it comes to driving that highly specialized political vehicle will invariably lead to a massive disaster.
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May 16, 2020 05:29
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Dont Touch ME posted:Unfortunately I think it will be his predecessor who gets most of the blame. Xi Jinping will likely become a Bismarck-esque figure, lauded as a great statesman who propelled his country politically forward with a huge leap. Just like Bismarck however, Xi Jinping has consolidated his power and turned Chinese politics into a high strung den that only he can control. Whoever replaces him will be like Kaiser Willy, who's incompetence when it comes to driving that highly specialized political vehicle will invariably lead to a massive disaster. Alternatively, wuhan coronavirus as china's chernobyl, history might not look so kindly on him.
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May 16, 2020 05:30
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This will probably be a rare occurrence, but I agree with braindance. China unquestionably does terrible things to large numbers of people, but the great majority of people there (Han, in at least moderately developed areas, with local hukous) do not feel particularly oppressed, and tbh I agree with them. People I have come to know, who trust me enough to talk politics, tend to be political about issues other than the central 'government control' issue, because to most of the ones I talk to, it was basically "They keep improving the economy in general and my prospects in particular, and I don't question them. They stop that, then there's a problem." So sure, if you're a minority or someone who got hurt by corruption you're on a sliding scale of Suck, but it does not seem inaccurate to say that most people in China are no more oppressed than anyone else.
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May 16, 2020 05:32
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hakimashou posted:Alternatively, wuhan coronavirus as china's chernobyl, history might not look so kindly on him. I would really like for that to be the case. But always bet on the cynical outcome when it comes to what gets recorded as geopolitical history.
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May 16, 2020 05:34
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BrainDance posted:I dunno man, it is? What do you want from me, dudes saying "aha the enlightenment guys answered all this" but, they didn't. I didn't say they had all the answers, I'm pointing out that there being eternal debate over the precise meaning of freedom vs oppression doesn't mean that Chinese people aren't oppressed. Especially in relative terms. Sure, they're freer than when they were literal peasant slaves, but relative to current standards of freedom they are absolutely oppressed. A slave that likes his master is still a slave.
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May 16, 2020 05:38
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Come... come! Liberate China.... if you dare!
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May 16, 2020 05:44
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Fojar38 posted:I didn't say they had all the answers, I'm pointing out that there being eternal debate over the precise meaning of freedom vs oppression doesn't mean that Chinese people aren't oppressed. Yeah that's fair. I was being short because of that guy being a dork. Though, I'm not gonna put as much stock into other people not being oppressed. But like I was saying this isnt lefty anarchist megathread so whatever. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 06:07 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 06:02
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hakimashou posted:Alternatively, wuhan coronavirus as china's chernobyl, history might not look so kindly on him. I'unno, Somehow.
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May 16, 2020 06:40
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Dont Touch ME posted:I wanted to experience the land where IP seemed to echo into limitless distorted knock-offs and see the cramped cities with overhanging wires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY I've been to Shenzhen myself and it was an enjoyable trip. Knockoff Apple and Samsung phones are boring and probably full of malware, but sometimes you see something weird and inventive on offer. On my way out at customs I saw some idiot proudly declare his entire haul as "fakes that he got for a really good price". The customs agent proceeded to put his stuff in a pile and smash it all with a hammer lmao.
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May 16, 2020 06:47
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GotLag posted:Actually I think you'll find that waving your wand just so and speaking the incantation "whataboutism" will completely invalidate your opponent's argument. Justifications that read like Jim Crow apologia with a few terms switched out tend to make it pretty easy.
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May 16, 2020 06:53
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oohhboy posted:Here is an interesting interview with the NZ foreign minster/Deputy PM. Boils down to yeah, nah. No why
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May 16, 2020 07:39
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oohhboy posted:Here is an interesting interview with the NZ foreign minster/Deputy PM. Boils down to yeah, nah. Why did China not want NZ to go into lockdown? And why was the NZ foreign minister's first call at the start of all this to the Chinese foreign minister? Did China turn New Zealand into a client state?
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May 16, 2020 07:43
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I miss him!!
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May 16, 2020 07:44
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CIGNX posted:Why did China not want NZ to go into lockdown? And why was the NZ foreign minister's first call at the start of all this to the Chinese foreign minister? If NZ goes into lockdown then it makes China look bad/weak for doing less, or not doing so sooner. So rather than actually do the thing that would help people and save lives, they try to bully others into not doing anything, thus risking lives but making China look like it did the right thing. "Look like" being the imperative phrase. Dunno why he would call the Chinese foreign minister. Probably to cut off any tantrum, and say "gently caress off" as politely as possible, whilst allowing China to say "this decision was made with consultation with us because we are super duper important." NZ is a badarse country, (in my half educated lay opinion), and has a history of telling bigger, more powerful countries to gently caress off. BrigadierSensible fucked around with this message at 08:16 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 07:50
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Probably worried that their milk powder supply and australias frozen vegetables wouldnt be arriving by ship
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May 16, 2020 08:03
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BrigadierSensible posted:NZ is a badarse country, (in my half educated lay opinion), and has a history of telling bigger, more powerful countries to gently caress off. tbf the world is learning pretty rapidly that if you tell china to gently caress off there isn't actually a whole lot china can do about it
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May 16, 2020 08:10
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New Zealand told the USA to gently caress off during the cold war. In 1987 they legislated to forbid any nuclear-powered or nuclear-armed ship from entering New Zealand waters, and as the US Navy refused to confirm or deny the presence of nukes on any ship, this was a de facto ban on US warships. The US response was to suspend its military treaty obligations to New Zealand, and in return NZ's response was to shrug. Simple geography means there's no credible military threat to New Zealand, so who cares?
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May 16, 2020 08:37
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hakimashou posted:Yeah Hu Jintao is *my* president of China. I love his hair and his crooked glasses and how China was much better when he ran it, like genuinely actually. Where are Hu and Jiang Zemin these days? Do they have Beijing estates that they don't leave except for big ceremonies? Do they do speaking tours inside China?
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May 16, 2020 08:39
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Arbite posted:Where are Hu and Jiang Zemin these days? Do they have Beijing estates that they don't leave except for big ceremonies? Do they do speaking tours inside China? All living former leaders get wheeled out for new year celebrations and/or important anniversaries, and pretty much nothing else. They might have some ongoing input into policy, or they might not - how would we know?
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May 16, 2020 08:51
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GotLag posted:New Zealand told the USA to gently caress off during the cold war. In 1987 they legislated to forbid any nuclear-powered or nuclear-armed ship from entering New Zealand waters, and as the US Navy refused to confirm or deny the presence of nukes on any ship, this was a de facto ban on US warships. Yeah, it was the ANZUS stuff that I remembered too. I think Longey was the PM at the time?
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May 16, 2020 09:09
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BrigadierSensible posted:Yeah, it was the ANZUS stuff that I remembered too. I think Longey was the PM at the time? Yeah, after Muldoon drunkenly
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May 16, 2020 09:42
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We need to do a South Africa on China when everyone sanctioned the poo poo out of them for apartheid.Arbite posted:Where are Hu and Jiang Zemin these days? Do they have Beijing estates that they don't leave except for big ceremonies? Do they do speaking tours inside China? Trying not to get Oppression is one of those "I know it when I see it" type of things built off examples. China is clearly oppressed with social credit system, official racism/apartheid, disappearances, cross border kidnappings, concentration camps etc etc. Like, if that isn't oppression I don't know what is. You will always find some one who is "OK" with this. They vote for Leopards. 
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May 16, 2020 10:23
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*screws up face with effort as I hold in the words "but what about..."* Edit: more usefully perhaps - what countries / regions would you consider "not oppressed" by that sort of judgement? I mean, if your answer is "almost nowhere" then sure, we have no major disagreement. Atopian fucked around with this message at 11:58 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 11:54
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US poses credible threat to NZ but theyre anglo so it wasnt gonna happen
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May 16, 2020 12:53
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bob dobbs is dead posted:US poses credible threat to NZ but theyre anglo so it wasnt gonna happen Of course if NZ elects a socialist all bets are off
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May 16, 2020 14:11
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bob dobbs is dead posted:US poses credible threat to NZ but theyre anglo so it wasnt gonna happen Also it's New Zealand, it's a nice place but it's hard to imagine a motivation for any country to attack it.
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May 16, 2020 15:01
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Grand Fromage posted:Also it's New Zealand, it's a nice place but it's hard to imagine a motivation for any country to attack it. Insatiable thirst for sheep. I.e.: the Welsh.
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May 16, 2020 15:25
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Grand Fromage posted:Also it's New Zealand, it's a nice place but it's hard to imagine a motivation for any country to attack it. <Peter Jackson announces that he is in the process of making a six-part film series based on a bar napkin doodle J.R.R. Tolkien gave to a friend in 1947> "Nuke it"
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May 16, 2020 15:39
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hakimashou posted:I miss him!! Miss this homie like you wouldn't believe
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May 16, 2020 17:28
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anyone other than jiang zemin is a heap of trash
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May 16, 2020 17:48
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WarpedNaba posted:I'unno, if the west had been smart, and locked china out in november like they should have known to do, then the china syndrome would not be a problem qed
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May 16, 2020 19:45
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