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Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.

Pick posted:

quote:

Spock’s Death is Really Good Writing
Spock’s death in Wrath of Khan is so good. It’s just so good! And Into Darkness fails spectacularly at recreating it.

Even with all the action, the climax of the movie, at least emotionally, is the warp core scene. The audience isn’t waiting for Kirk to kill Khan, they’re waiting to hear Spock’s last words. This is an excellent scene that was absolutely written for Spock. Everything about it is utterly, tragically logical.

I don’t think it’s impossible to do an AU where the roles are reversed. I actually think it’s an interesting idea, and I suspect plenty fic writers did it long before JJ Abrams came on the scene. There are parts of Kirk’s death in Into Darkness that I think work pretty well. The final goodbye with Spock is well done and the fingers forming the taal just before he dies is really genius. Everything that leads up to that, however, is very different:

Spock hears what’s going on and immediately does the mental math. We can see the moment he realize, long before anyone else, that it’s not possible for Scotty to get the warp core online in time.
Spock gets up and leaves quietly. It’s not a dramatic moment. Kirk is so busy with the crisis he doesn’t even notice.
There is no action. Nothing to climb, no one to punch, just determination.
Bones being the one who tries to stop Spock is extremely significant. That scene is entirely informed by the well-documented and often contentious history between those two characters.
There’s a lovely moment of dramatic irony when Kirk assumes Scotty has pulled off another one of his famous miracles, but the audience already knows it wasn’t him. This whole movie is about Kirk being a step behind; Khan gets the better of him at several key points this way. Once again, Kirk is one step behind, but as soon as Bones asks him to come down, he sees Spock’s empty chair and knows everything.
For me, at least, there is something poignant about middle-aged Kirk running through the corridors. He’s going as fast as he can, but still clearly slowed by age, and there’s something about it that I feel Zachary Quinto’s power sprint lacks.
The analogous scene in Into Darkness is much more of an action sequence:

Kirk is climbing things and swinging around. It lacks everything I find unique and interesting in Wrath of Khan.
Kirk punches someone to knock them out. Obviously the nerve pinch wasn’t available, but it just doesn’t fit the feel of the scene, for me.
Replacing Bones as the person who tries to stop the hero with Scotty changes the tone entirely. Scotty was one of the first people Kirk befriended in the previous movie and has always been on Kirk’s side, more loyal to him than necessarily to Starfleet. Keeping Bones in the role would not have worked any better for the same reason. As originally filmed, the “you’re not going in there” scene is the final culmination of the Spock-Bones dynamic. Into Darkness provides no substitute.
Kirk and Spock have the opposite problem. Instead of happening after years of closeness, the death happens early in their friendship, which was very recently strained. This is a significant change in context.
There’s one more distinction that is so important I’m giving it its own section:

Spock does not sacrifice himself enthusiastically. He is in no way self-destructive. Spock at the beginning of Wrath of Khan is about as content and balanced as he’s ever been. His experiences in The Motion Picture caused him to realize that a life of pure logic is empty and meaningless. He still reveres logic, but no longer limits himself to it. He has fully accepted both halves of himself. Spock does not particularly want to sacrifice himself, but it is logical and necessary. He does not seek death, but he does accept it.

Kirk in Into Darkness is still struggling with his self-destructive tendencies as established in the previous movie. He may not be outwardly or even consciously eager to die, but he is a death seeker nonetheless. This completely changes the context of his death and the meaning of the act itself. This is reflected in the death scene itself. The use of “because you are my friend” in place of Spock’s famous Wrath of Khan line works well and suits this version of the characters and the status of their relationship, but there is no “needs of the many.” This theme reinforces that Spock’s death is not about him, but rather about the crew, who would die if he did not do it. Its absence from Into Darkness leaves us with no real evidence against Jim Kirk being a death seeker who has found an opportunity to die heroically.

This is not necessarily worse. It’s a very interesting concept, but the movie doesn’t sell it, because it doesn’t retool the entire sequence into its own cohesive story, focusing too heavily on the superficial similarities between the Wrath of Khan scenario and this one.

I’m on the record as being unhappy with AOS and hating this movie in particular. I’ve also said an edgier, alternate timeline reboot of Star Trek is something I would really enjoy if it were executed differently, and I think this is especially true of Into Darkness, and the role reversal in the death. Also, if you’re going to kill a main character that way, you need to commit the entire next movie to bringing them back, and Abrams is a coward for bringing Kirk back before the credits rolled.
Reading this, I suddenly wonder if this movie is why Disney had someone else do Episode 8

I like this thread a lot, thanks :)

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Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.

Roth posted:

Tumblr's not perfect, but I'll take a bunch of teenagers with an imperfect understanding of leftist ideas over twitter"s straight up nazis.
There are absolutely nazis on tumblr -- it's just that they generally stick to each other, or engage in fandoms that are already nazi-adjacent or dogwhistley.
And if you're unlucky enough to catch their attention... good luck :rip: tumblr's antiharrassment capabilities are very inadequate. (Admittedly not as bad as Twitter's, but.. that's not a compliment)

There's also poo poo like Columbine superfans that keep trying to get into the Doom community because one of the shooters made a few maps

The good parts of tumblr are really good, but it really suffers from incompetent and uncaring owners. Hopefully someone will someday make an ActivityPub-based clone.

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