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Finally watched the premiere. So much fun! Can't wait for the rest of the season. Like others have said it was cool to watch Rob and Parv at work again. Survivor really is just in some people's blood - those two haven't missed a beat. Yul was great to watch as well and I'll be rooting for him. Ethan's a dark horse (and overall it's great to see him out there soaking up the experience after what he's been through). I think Nick, Sarah and Wendell are going to be the main newer players to watch. I'm especially reminded by how well Nick is able to pull off the public, good-ol-boy goofball image while playing such a grounded, measured game behind the scenes.
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Feb 15, 2020 02:55
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STAC Goat posted:Adam: Its impossible to betray someone without pissing anyone off. Or is it? Pretty much this, on both accounts. Nice play by the Michelle/Jeremy/Denise/Ben quartet, and just quintessential overplaying on Adam's part trying to solidify every single relationship, although I do have some level of appreciation for him at least trying to get one over on the heavy hitters. The Boston Rob effect really is something else. Starstruckness/wanting to play with a legend and fear of going against the godfather no doubt play a role, but he's also an ideal shield amidst a Survivor climate where players of his obvious threat level seldom make it to the end. Still not a great reason to keep him around forever, but I would guess that factors into the decision to keep him around.
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Feb 27, 2020 18:25
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My memory of MvG is kind of hazy but there are some similarities with Adam's trajectory this time around, right? Like he was all but toast right after (before?) the merge but then basically mea culpa'ed his way back into good standing. He has not played well so far but he is really good at the "earnest weasel" thing and I could see him resurrecting his game easily enough (or he'll become the goat of goats). I am rooting heavily for the Yul-Sophie-Wendell-Nick crew but am also fully prepared for Rob to decimate them with his rasputin charm. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Mar 5, 2020 |
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Mar 5, 2020 08:44
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Yeah I think that might have been the most straightforward vote all season (other than maybe his wife). If he manages to stay in the game, it's going to build up his resume pretty much by default. There's no reason to keep him around. Khanstant posted:Better give us a secret Tyson scene or something Amazing. Honestly gently caress that buddy system poo poo. Nobody's going to put up with that on Survivor in TYOL2020.
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Mar 12, 2020 09:29
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He is going to have nightmares about Boston Rob for years. Dude has some significant real estate in his head.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:37
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Count me in with the "wasn't an overplay" camp (at least for Denise). I think it became pretty clear that she wasn't very well-respected and this changes that. On the other hand, just a terrible blunder from Sandra. Hubris really does have it's way of rarely going unpunished in this show.
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Mar 19, 2020 11:00
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Yul  Though like, kind of dumb to rock the boat and target Wendell just by virtue of him having blown the challenge for them (if that really was the main reason). Not a smart way to dictate votes this far into the game, especially when those 3 feasibly could have been ride or die. The whole fire token plot was just overplaying too. I really like the guy, but he dug his own grave. The main takeaway for me from that going forward is that Michelle is a force. I was always really hard on her performance in her winning season, but it's becoming really clear that her social ease is a strong asset and that her win was no accident. People consistently want to play the game with her, and that's not nothing. In theory, those 3 guys should have been locked in. The women are killing it this season. Sophie, Michelle and Denise are playing top tier games, with Sarah and Kim not far behind. I hope Adam sticks around and continues to have to defend himself hilariously to his tribemates and give ironic confessionals about his thinking.
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Mar 26, 2020 06:44
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He was fully certain that the two people who did not have an idol had an idol, while never suspecting the person who actually has it. Hell, he shouldn’t have been casting suspicion in the first place. All his energy should be going into making him seem like a dependable ally and helping shore up their foursome as a cohesive unit. Instead, he is creating division and drawing attention to himself as the weak link in the process. It’s just been bad gameplay from him since the get-go.
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Mar 26, 2020 07:53
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EoE is annoying AF, but at least there's still time for them to handle it correctly - that is to say, by having the final (and ideally only) returnee come back much sooner than Chris did in his season.
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Mar 26, 2020 13:19
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pokeyman posted:Yeah it's a confusing mess (still fun to watch though). We figured Michele was in on the vote and flipped on Wendell, based entirely on trying to read her "I had no idea" response. It seems plausible enough that indeed Wendell, Nick and Michelle voted Adam with the rest voting Wendell. I think ultimately Sophie wanting to keep Adam around won out over Jeremy wanting to keep Wendell around. In theory, Jeremy/Ben/Tony/Tyson could have voted in a bloc with Wendell/Nick/Michelle, but that foursome is such an ad hoc crew of people who have not really worked together at all (save for Jeremy/Ben for a little bit at the beginning) that it's not surprising that pushback from people with whom they had deeper ties caused it to fall apart. Maybe Tony was the weakest link since he is pretty in bed with both Sarah (and by association Sophie) and Kim (who seems to have a thing going with Denise), but then again nobody aside from Jeremy seemed all that attached to Wendell to begin with. Plus, Adam's a big fat goat. Anyway, this episode solidified the fact that Sophie and Sarah are running the game, at least for now. Will be interesting to see how long they can keep it up. freeman posted:i want adam to stay just to get more adam and ben fights Easily the most entertaining relationship in the game. Ben has such little respect for Adam it's hilarious. They're like from different planets. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 05:41
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IcePhoenix posted:Was just watching the deleted scenes and there's an EoE scene from after the challenge where Rob mentions 17 more days so that means the last returnee challenge is going to be final six, which is way too late and I'm really worried that someone (Rob) is going to win the same way Chris did. It also reads "the last time you can spend fire tokens is sundown of day 34" at the bottom of the fire token menu posted earlier, so I think it's all but confirmed now that they're doing it the same way as last time. So yeah, not only are they running back the same dumbass arrangement, they've further empowered EoE folk by giving them the option of buying idols with fire tokens. It's honestly infuriating if I think about it for too long. It's even more inappropriate considering the fact that this season is meant to crown the superlative Survivor winner or whatever. The lengths these loving producers go to to make Rob Mariano the poster child for Survivor... Vernacular fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 05:02
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IcePhoenix posted:yeah, I would be fine with EoE as a concept, even with the weird fire token stuff, if the merge contest was the only one to get back in the game Same 100%. It is outright insane that somebody who got voted out will by default get a 1 in 6 chance to win and intimate jury relationships, not to mention the possibility of buying an idol. Just trying to be constructive and brainstorm ways to make it less of a disaster: the EofE folk should be put in more situations where they have the option to deceive each other for fire tokens. That way those relationships are actually tested instead rapport automatically building just by virtue of their shared experience. vvv that would be fine as well Vernacular fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 05:22
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Stokes posted:Winners aren't stupid. You have to know they're bringing the last EoE returnee to the final 3 as a zero vote getter. Even if it was Rob, I don't think a season full of winners is going to let a gimmick win. There's no reason to even go to all the trouble of trying to get back in if that's the prevailing logic. They are all drinking the same koolaid, returnees will be a threat to win no doubt.
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Apr 4, 2020 14:00
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I know Jeremy overplayed horribly a couple weeks ago, but I'm wondering if this is the time he really is going to have to start making some moves. As of now, it seems like the Sophie/Sarah/Tony/Kim crew is running the show, with Nick and Michelle on the obvious outs and the rest just sorta going with the flow. The main cadre could just continue to chip off the outsiders, but it probably makes more sense to start taking out the more vulnerable, fringey high profile players like Jeremy and Tyson. Likewise, Jeremy and Tyson would be wise to recruit Nick and Michelle, and I guess Ben and Denise necessarily, to weaken the power quartet. I don't think it would be difficult to sell the latter two on the idea, as Denise is definitely not in the final four plans of anybody in charge, and Ben is probably more than happy to fancy himself an actual threat (although in reality he is probably closer to a goat at this point). The show threw a lot of arrows in Sarah's direction, but I think Sophie would be the likelier target, as she is not really connected to any of the fringe folk in the same way that Sarah and Tony are. xbilkis posted:As someone who hated Adam his first season, manic doofus Adam is wonderful and I will miss him greatly Yeah he's been one of the main attractions this season. Like a less competent Rick Devens. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Apr 9, 2020 |
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Apr 9, 2020 09:32
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The only truly out-of-nowhere thing this episode was Sarah gunning for Kim. Everything else makes enough sense in context. Pinterest Mom posted:My best guess is that Nick and Michelle are trying a pivot strategy? Right, I think those two must have an understanding of some sort. Jeremy/Tyson/Kim/Denise is a foursome of people who would almost certainly all get votes to win at the end. If Nick and Michelle hitch their wagons to the Tony/Sophie/Sarah/Ben wagon, they can at least try and work out a final three arrangement with Ben, who is basically the only one playing any semblance of a goat game right now, and in any case, yeah, they could just as easily flip back to the minority alliance next week to take out somebody like Tony or Sophie. Also, Nick's very forced comment during TC about how his two main allies (Yul and Wendell) had been voted out seemed designed to misdirect people away from his relationship with Michelle. Tony looks like the top dog right now and I can't say I would mind him winning. He is playing a Good Game™, thanks in large part to an ideal alliance arrangement. I think Sophie is getting a "playing a good game but is getting blindsided soon" edit. Having literally half an episode devoted to loved one visits is a new Survivor low. It's also another indication of how much production probably had to bend over backwards to convince this exact group to participate. The chance of getting back in via EofE, the increased cash prize, and now, automatic time spent with loved ones for all. We knew that Amber, and now Jeremy, had to be talked into playing...I'd be surprised if the cast hadn't been given some sort of vague assurances that there'd be unusual benefits to playing this season. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 07:41
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JesusSinfulHands posted:Why did the big group not split the votes 3-3-3? If Kim had correctly deduced that it was Tyson and Michele had not flipped they ran the risk of getting one of theirs sent home... Yeah I've been running scenarios in my head and it's a tough one to figure out. There could have been a 5-2-2 vote split, though Michelle (by process of elimination) would have had to be in on the plan from the get-go, which doesn't sound too farfetched. The Nick-Michelle alliance still sounds right to me but we'll see. Another possibility is that Michelle decided to vote against her squad when it became clear that their chances were greatly diminished. I guess it was common knowledge that Kim had an idol, so it was fair to assume she might play it on herself, leaving Tyson and Denise as the alternatives. The problem with this model is that it presupposes not only that the group botched the vote split, but also that the majority alliance was unable to reach a consensus at all, or/and one or both of the Denise votes were cast as misdirection. However, I'm inclined to believe that the 5-2-2 split was always the plan, with Tyson getting the majority and Jeremy getting the minority, and the main TC uncertainty arising from the question of who to give Jeremy's votes to. Wild guess: 2-Sophie (Kim, Tyson) 2-Denise (possibly Ben, as suggested by his "what now?" comment at TC, and somebody else) 5-Tyson (the rest of the majority alliance folk plus Michelle, who didn't have to change her vote and thus didn't have to be privy to the TC gameplan session) PepeSilvia.jpg Vernacular fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 10:46
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Showing Nick and Michelle working together in classic "welp, I guess we're the swing votes" fashion probably would've killed the suspense once Jeremy left, cuz at that point there's 0 reason to vote with the minority. Not trying to defend the editing of the episode as a whole, but might help explain why they didn't get more screen time. Pinterest Mom posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ueHJQ4wr4 What I'm still wondering about is whether Tyson was always the main target despite all the heat Jeremy was catching. They made that big fuss over having to gameplan in private when Jeremy left, but Michelle was not involved. Either they had made it very clear that Tyson would be target #2 if Jeremy were to no longer be an option, or Jeremy was actually the 2nd part of the split, with the huddle being called to plan for Denise to replace Jeremy. edit: or yeah I guess a 4(Jeremy)-3(Tyson) split could have been the original plan, with Michelle's vote remaining for Tyson even after Jeremy played his advantage. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 17:42
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Honestly I think the most frustrating aspect of that loved one's visit is that players weren't put in the position of having to select others to share the reward after the challenge. It's a consistently interesting dilemma that always tends to have ramifications for in-game dynamics.
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Apr 16, 2020 17:58
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It's pretty wild that legitimate criticisms about segment length are being used to call one's overall compassion and empathy into question, as if it's weird not to rely on a heavily stage-managed, strategy-based reality show for one's regular "dose" of humanity, or something. I generally like the segment more than I don't (and having the kids out there was a nice touch), but up until this season they had at least been able to present it effectively while also fitting everything (including the challenge/reward component, which imo is a crucial part of the whole deal) into a reasonable timeframe, so their inability to do so this time around is disappointing.
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Apr 17, 2020 06:49
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Fast Luck posted:I hate Ben and also don't know if he's doing work behind the scenes but he is the one guy that came from that other Tribe who got himself solidly entrenched with the majority. Not bad. Ben has been the number one beneficiary of Adam's wretched gameplay. He absorbed a ton of attention early days, and then after the tribeswap he sort of became the de facto third wheel for Sophie/Sarah once Adam started getting paranoid about people having idols. That was huge in giving Ben a foothold in the majority alliance post-merge. He also still doesn't have as much of a resume as the 3 people he's been working with most closely, or even probably people like Denise and Jeremy, so he still feels like kind of a tag-along. His social game is much improved, but he doesn't seem, like, the kind of social beacon somebody like S39 Tommy was who was actively quarterbacking moves and getting people to come to him with important information for pretty much the whole game. Ben is very much just a pawn for other people's plans and I would guess a jury wouldn't give him a pass for that. Still time for him to catch up to Tony/Sarah/Sophie, though, and he is at least -far- less annoying than he was in HHH. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 20, 2020 |
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Apr 20, 2020 16:25
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Was completely wrong about Nick/Michelle secretly working together but at least I was right about Sophie getting the blindside edit  (although I was rooting for her)Just gonna stop speculating on alliances from here on out SteveVizsla posted:I will never, ever understand people trusting Tony Jeremy and Michelle didn't really have much choice but to go along with the blindside. If Tony isn't going along with the Ben vote, there is no Ben vote. Plus, it was super on brand for Tony...probably wasn't ultimately that hard for Jeremy and Michelle to figure out it was their only play (save for like, blowing up Tony's plan to Sarah/Sophie and going for Nick) But yeah, trusting him from the get-go was........a risk Vernacular fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 08:14
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Fast Luck posted:Unfortunately for Tony is that he did this to get Sarah to himself and now he's probably lost Sarah. A lot of people are saying "how could you trust Tony" which is fair, but really, these are all winners, not many of them are just gonna ride strong with their whole alliance all the way to the end. You risk the same thing with pretty much everyone. I think even if he has lost Sarah (and there's a chance their Cops 'R Us blood really does run deep), the move just made too much sense on multiple levels to pass up. In one fell swoop, he: 1) Eliminated a big threat to win 2) Showed his dominance over another big threat (Jeremy) 3) Made two mid-range threats (Denise and Kim) look pretty dumb 4) Aligned himself with the less threatening group of players The most  element of the move was #2, cuz now Jeremy is simultaneously still enough of a threat to the tribe at large to draw significant attention, while also being less of a threat in particular comparison to Tony, who now has more justification for sitting next to him at the end.Everybody would obviously be foolish to not start targeting Tony, but if Jeremy and Michelle are still keen on getting Ben out, I could just as easily envision another Jeremy vs Ben scenario next week.
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Apr 24, 2020 10:18
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Jeremy's charisma is off-the-charts in general. Dude oozes it.
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Apr 25, 2020 08:04
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It really was something, people like Troyzan and Brad Culpepper being labelled as "game changers".
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Apr 28, 2020 09:18
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Tony fuckin owns, and he has the ideal team assembled around him. As I thought after last week, Jeremy continues to be the perfect shield. Ben, the perfect idol-hunting, immunity threat goat. Sarah, the ride-or-die partner who is still hopelessly all-in with him even after last week's blindside - to the comical point that she is actively encouraging him to not flush his idol. How absurd was that? Both her and Ben are bending over backwards to protect Tony's interests. A sign of true power. I suspect those two think they're playing games on par with Tony's, and as such think they all need to vote together. Pinterest Mom posted:I don't understand why Kim/Michelle/Nick/Denise + Jeremy wasn't an option?? I think everybody wants to go to the end with Ben at this point. Why Sarah wasn't as much of an option...I have no idea. Maybe they expect her to flip on Tony eventually? I think the Kim/Michelle/Denise trio has been playing vote-to-vote for most of the game, and tonight was no exception. Jeremy was the most obvious vulnerable threat, with Ben seemingly a de facto vote in that direction, and they planned accordingly. I don't understand what Michelle was looking to accomplish by voting with those two while also undermining their efforts, nor do I get why that crew didn't amend their plan once Ben spilled the beans to Tony. Things generally looking pretty dire for the non-Tony and Sarah players at the moment (though I guess Jeremy could sneak through). The main wildcard (aside from the EoE returnee) is Nick. Not sure if this was his thinking, but he's now well-positioned as the swing vote next week to blindside one of those two, although he flubbed his defense in front of Tony so maybe there's no longer trust there. The EoE stuff has remained annoying, and for the most part I've been rooting against a Boston Rob return, but at this point a Tony vs Rob showdown would be incredible. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 07:45
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Michelle's commitment to Jeremy wasn't common knowledge though, right? Plus, on paper at least, she's better off with Kim than Jeremy. She has been playing kind of a wishy-washy game anyway so I don't think she can be counted on for any particular outcome. Did Nick mention knowing about Jeremy's advantage? I assumed that was one of the seeds Tony planted during his TC pot-stirring. To me, that would be the easy selling point for a Kim vote. Even if you're not obviously on the chopping block, it's generally risky business (both in terms of optics and your own vulnerability) to be going all in against somebody with a 50% chance of safety. Nick's basically playing the ultimate game of chicken (or "hyena", borrowing Tony's term). It's dependent entirely on him situating himself as the main organizer of a blindside (or blindsides) against the biggest threats at the last possible moments. The next vote is make-or-break for him. Andrew_1985 posted:I think next week is the end for Denise and one of the big players. Only because poor Denise has had almost no confessionals or storylines this season. Her idol find was Adam’s storyline and she barely got a word on her Sandra boot. Yeah, she gone. I think it'll be Sarah and then Denise, or vice versa. Unless the 2-boot episode is setting things up for a Denise/Michelle pagonging, but my guess is it'll be the former. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 07:11 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 06:58
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I think you can more or less include Ben in that crew. The three of them have been voting together (aside from the Sophie vote) since, what, the merge?
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May 1, 2020 16:37
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STAC Goat posted:I think the thing about Tony that really drives people up the wall is how shamelessly he'll insist he didn't screw you or that you can still trust him. It would be one thing if he was just a player who outplayed you. But now you're stuck working with him and he's basically trying to gaslight you that its a good thing. That's clearly driving Jeremy insane and Sarah just snapped. His body language at TC was a thing of beauty, with him holding Jeremy's shoulder while the votes were read as some next level emotional manipulation. In general, the way he's been dealing with Jeremy is the true mark of Tony's genius this season. I'm fairly certain Tony can beat Jeremy at the end, and I think Tony knows that as well, so there's no pressing need to vote him out, but at the same time if Tony himself is catching heat or Ben/Sarah are insistent on Jeremy going home, then he can just as easily take his foot off the gas, go along with his core alliance and get himself one vote closer to F4. But I think Tony's path to the end most likely includes Jeremy (and possibly the EoE returnee, who I think Tony will snap up as he's done with Jeremy). It'll be really interesting to see if he can marshal enough opposition to Denise this week. If he can get her out while saving both Jeremy and his idol, he has a real chance of winning the drat thing.
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May 5, 2020 06:44
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After last week I thought he had the opportunity to make some moves but no, yeah, Nick dumb. "This vote is based on thinking multiple moves ahead" *votes out the only person who will help him get ahead*. Like somebody said, just bad awareness of the state of tribe relationships. The editors were loving his downfall this week. Tony's got a really magical combination of Redemption Island Boston Rob and One World Kim Spradlin going on right now where he's godfathering everything but yet remaining remarkably invisible (epitomized by the Spynest™). It would be an incredible win, and his chances seem really good - he has the idol and everybody is going to be terrified of the EoE returnee and Michelle. Plus I guess Sarah and Ben think they're actually playing grandmaster chess out there. It's hard to gauge her shot at winning but Michelle is super charming. She's tough AF, but also graceful and smooth, and generally handles herself really well in difficult situations. I was not a fan during her season, but I can see how she endears herself to people to easily.
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May 7, 2020 07:10
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STAC Goat posted:I don't find Tony's game terrible calculated. I think he's doing a very good job reading the tribe dynamics and then is cutting lines he sees. That's smart and he's clearly reading the game better than Sarah, Nick, or Ben... and I think probably Denise. But like I think he's largely playing reactively and spontaneously. Which is how he his entire game strategy shifted from "I need to keep Jeremy" to voting him out in the same cycle. It doesn't seem done on the fly to me at all. He has done an incredible job of reining in his bad habits and optimizing his environment. As I have said before, Jeremy was the perfect ally of convenience since Tony could either keep him around as a shield and a number, or cut him loose to help make his allies feel more empowered/comfortable, and neither was a bad option. He has also been pretty methodical at eliminating threats to his partnerships (Wendell, Sophie, Kim, Nick) before they have a chance to gain power. These are all signs of a calculated player. I mean, has he made a single post-merge mistake? I feel like you are shortchanging him here.
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May 7, 2020 07:41
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That was a very satisfying finale. One of the most masterful wins to date by Tony. Dude had a near perfect read on the game from the merge onwards. He made all the right moves, forged the ideal alliance (which he stayed true to, impressively), kicked rear end in immunity and firemaking challenges, and overall did a great job of adapting his personality to the game. Did anybody else predict that he would harness his Tony-isms so skillfully? I definitely didn't. I mean, he turned part of final TC into a stand-up comedy special. Incredible. Also, surprised that the Sophie blindside never got brought up (on TV, at least). That seemed like the most important move of the game to me. Nat and Michelle are both terrific people and competitors (good lord, what a refreshing final 3 in contrast to the last EoE), and though I won't shed any tears for an EoE returnee not winning, I think they each did admirable jobs of playing the respective hands they were dealt. I don't really blame Nat for not giving up immunity to take on Tony. She put the two biggest threats up against each other. It was a perfectly fair decision. If I had to nitpick anything, it'd be that maybe (and who knows with the editing) she didn't try hard enough to make Lacina going home instead of Ben more of a reality. Being able to pit Ben against Tony in firemaking (or convince him to give up immunity to take on Tony, in the case of him winning) changes everything. I know it was a close call, but I'd think you'd feel significantly more confident in Ben over Lacina in that situation 10 times out of 10. Anyway, great season. I don't share their optimism about getting season 41 on the air by fall, however. That seems like it...won't happen. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 17:01 on May 14, 2020 |
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May 14, 2020 16:18
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JOHN CENA posted:Translation: it's a schaudenfreude season This is how I felt about Nicaragua
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May 19, 2020 14:46
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This might be a weird take (and I'm not trying to make it in some sort of "well actually -this- was the main lovely thing about the season we should bemoan" fashion), but IOTI actually had a fairly promising collection of competent players (Tommy, Molly, Lauren, Jason, Jack), interesting characters (Noura, Vince) or both (Kellee, Elaine, Jamal, Janet). Instead, most were either culled by the lovely people, or themselves became lovely (though I won't disagree with anybody who says that some were lovely to begin with) as the season's awful shitfuck bad juju vortex gained force, which made the overall experience even more disappointing (in addition to disgusting). It actually may have been a pretty decent season if Dan hadn't been casted. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 13:55 on May 21, 2020 |
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May 21, 2020 13:52
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STAC Goat posted:Redemption Island remains the one season I couldn't get through and I don't feel like I missed anything. It's probably the worst season, yeah. Worlds Apart was really gross as well. Those two and IOTI are probably the top 3 stinkers for me. At least One World gave us the Kim win (maybe the spoiler tag is unnecessary at this point), and Nicaragua had some fairly hilarious and satisfying schadenfreude.
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May 27, 2020 06:27
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ApplesandOranges posted:I'll at least give WA that it had a satisfying ending Agreed, but goddamn some of those people were just awful humans. It was truly hard to stomach. Obviously people like NaOnka and Sash on Nicaragua were super lame and slimy (respectively), but I don't recall them reaching like a Dan/Will level of trash-dom (although it's been ages since I watched so I could be mistaken).
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May 28, 2020 09:32
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