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gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005



Hell Gem

Son of Rodney posted:

I watched TNG for the first time a while back and I finally understood the hype for picard as captain. He was a really cool dude in that series. The rest ist just kind of bad though.
he always stuck up for the junior-grade officers
but sometimes didnt stick up for entire planets because the prime directive says its better to let them die or be enslaved than interfere

Jose posted:

He's no sisko and im only on season 3 of ds9 for the first time
i wont put picard and sisko in opposition

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strange feelings re Daisy
Aug 2, 2000



I subscribed to CBS access for Picard but there's only 3 episodes currently so I quickly moved on to Discovery. I'm surprised how excellent the production quality is since it's a web series. The props, costumes, sets, CGI, etc. are vastly improved over the previous TV shows. It's also really fun seeing Captain Pike being a cool dude in his prime. What a silver fox!

Tin Can Hit Man
Jul 30, 2003

try to catch him if you can

DS9 was great at providing an overarching plot, while still managing to slide in some fun B plots amongst all the drama and chaos. It's probably why the series doesn't feel as dark and despondent as it sounds if you were to describe it to someone who's never seen it before. Which is impressive when you consider that most Star Trek plots bounce back by the end of an episode or two-parter, whereas DS9 let the bad guys gain ground and snag wins that remained for episodes or seasons at a time.

Son of Rodney
Feb 22, 2006

ohmygodohmygodohmygod



gary oldmans diary posted:

he always stuck up for the junior-grade officers
but sometimes didnt stick up for entire planets because the prime directive says its better to let them die or be enslaved than interfere
i wont put picard and sisko in opposition

As a Sci fi nerd this is a topic that gets discussed quite frequently. The best argument for the prime directive is that you never know the consequences of your actions and you take away the self determination of an entire species. The culture book series is in large parts about the consequences of highly advanced species meddling with lesser species and it's not always a positive outcome, even with literal higher dimension super computers handling it.

Imho it's propably better than every captain using his own personal views to change the development of entire cultures.

Many serious words about star trek up in here.

Icochet
Mar 18, 2008



Grimey Drawer

Picard should've torpedoed the crystal monster immediately imo

Tin Can Hit Man
Jul 30, 2003

try to catch him if you can

Data torpedoed Tasha.

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡


What about Star Trek: The Picard, but it's just for the Mintakans.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


Icochet posted:

Picard should've torpedoed the crystal monster immediately imo

He probably agrees with you which is why he showed less and less compassion and foresight every season until devolving into a tactless dune-buggy riding action-man in the movies.

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005



Hell Gem

Son of Rodney posted:

The best argument for the prime directive is that you never know the consequences of your actions and you take away the self determination of an entire species.
i get what the prime directive is but it doesnt hold up to the extent of the most desperate scenarios where an entire alien race will die without a last resort measure beyond the prime directive. unless proponents of it in the future are willing to argue death is just as good as life or better that a person had died than survived such strife

any time it can work it should be the course of action but it obviously doesnt always work

touting the prime directive is one of picards less desirable traits right up there with referring to every good characteristic as a human trait
"compassion, mr data. a very human trait"

"ah, vigilance, i see youve learned much from humanity mr worf"
"the gently caress"

"appreciation for music -most human of you commander riker"

*picard looks in a full length mirror before bed*
"good god look at that. clearly gods chosen species. unf"

gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Feb 9, 2020

Tin Can Hit Man
Jul 30, 2003

try to catch him if you can

The Prime Directive is one of those things that suffers from having a stable of rotating writers. Some of them get it better than others, and can come up with some pretty compelling arguments for non-interference.

But then you get a bunch of badly-written "This sentient species is most certainly going extinct, but what if saving them gives us Space Hitler 3000?!" plots full of jank.

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005



Hell Gem

the episode where riker was basically the roswell alien was very good

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



true

BuckarooBanzai
Dec 2, 2004

Wherever you go, there you are.

Slippery Tilde

gary oldmans diary posted:

the episode where riker was basically the roswell alien was very good

The episode were the DS9 ferengi were literally the Roswell aliens was better

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005



Hell Gem

they didnt even get oomox

e: wait actually one of them did

gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Feb 9, 2020

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 30 hours!


Grimey Drawer

The Management posted:

Does he perform at least one Picard Maneuver per episode?

Half the time it looks like he's just wearing his normal street clothes. So no uniform tugging.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


Tin Can Hit Man posted:

The Prime Directive is one of those things that suffers from having a stable of rotating writers. Some of them get it better than others, and can come up with some pretty compelling arguments for non-interference.

But then you get a bunch of badly-written "This sentient species is most certainly going extinct, but what if saving them gives us Space Hitler 3000?!" plots full of jank.

This is a good point. If you're gonna go so far as to think "well why help anybody if it might possibly go wrong?" then being an explorer/diplomat is a really weird choice of profession. And you can't really argue that you're protecting people's agency by making a decision for them, behind their backs, based on your values not theirs.

The biggest hiccup with the prime directive is that the line between "yes you can have warp" and "no way you animals, we're gonna observe you from a duck-blind" is whether or not you already built a warp drive on your own. Which seems to make sense until you realize oh yeah, time travel. In First Contact we find out that it was just dumb luck that the Enterprise D crew was around to man all the technical stations at the "first" warp experiment, and in Little Green Men we find out our real first contact was in 1947 and Odo using wildshape is all that kept us from being conquered by the Ferengi. Or no, I guess real first contact was when Guinan met Mark Twain? Or maybe ancient cultures knew aliens too? There are just so many random episodes and movie moments suggesting over and over that humans got like 20 "first" contacts, and all their fancy future tech wasn't ever really invented, it was just left behind on time-jaunts; Scotty hotkeying up some transparent aluminum on an Apple 2 and such. Joining the federation is supposed to be about proving yourself worthy but it's clearly just serendipity, their "new guys have to earn it first!" rule is a huge double standard when every human on Earth found out time travel was real and relatively easy at the end of Star Trek IV.

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

I thought it was time you had a new av so typed in random picture and this is what came up


Maybe the prime directive was brought back by some really smart future alien from 69th millenium

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



I'm the rear admiral of the 420th fleet

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

A garden full of trees, and a pocket full of cheese.

Colonel Cancer posted:

Maybe the prime directive was brought back by some really smart future alien from 69th millenium

I don't know about the 69th millenium, but in the year 6969 Ain't gonna need no husband won't need no wife You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too. From the bottom of along glass tube.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 30 hours!


Grimey Drawer

Put this in the OP, and at the top of every page. Full size!

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017



Blistex posted:

Put this in the OP, and at the top of every page. Full size!



Cursed image to go with a cursed show

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

I thought it was time you had a new av so typed in random picture and this is what came up


wesleywillis posted:

I don't know about the 69th millenium, but in the year 6969 Ain't gonna need no husband won't need no wife You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too. From the bottom of along glass tube.

Unless rusty swords for practicing proctology are somehow involved, I ain't interested bud

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Exciting Lemon

Lamebot posted:

What about Star Trek: The Picard, but it's just for the Mintakans.

*shoots TV with an arrow*

Prism Mirror Lens
Oct 9, 2012

~*"The most intelligent and meaning-rich film he could think of was Shaun of the Dead, I don't think either brain is going to absorb anything you post."*~






If you violate prime directive to ‘save’ a non-space-faring society by beaming them up or moving them to another planet youve jacked up their entire culture anyway, so in a way you might as well have let them die

Saving them by covering the planet in a force field or something... I’d allow it

Tin Can Hit Man
Jul 30, 2003

try to catch him if you can

I wonder if Starfleet ever had their own John Chau trying to convert some planet-sized equivalent of the North Sentinel Islands.

Tip
Mar 21, 2006

Your move, creep.


Blistex posted:

Put this in the OP, and at the top of every page. Full size!



Haramstufe Rot
Jun 24, 2016

President of the Erich Honecker Fan Club


Hyrax Attack! posted:

Dunno why Romulans needed starfleet help to evacuate their home system from a supernova. They have a large fleet and an empire, just pay the Ferengi to make nonstop flights on space cruise ships.


One of the things they get right is
a) retconning the movie supernova from "destroying the galaxy" to "destroying the system".
b) the impossibility of evacuating a planet with fleets of normal sizes

what they don't get right is that there should be ample warning about the supernova. Still much better than movie Trek, as there seems to be enough time to assemble a rescue armada. But if the event is naturally occurring, Romulans would have known.


As for b) some nerd in the other thread calculated this. Assume there are 5 billion Romulans in the system.

Assume the Romulans have 1000 ships standing by that can carry 1200 people at a time. Assume you just need to Warp to some system which takes 1 hour. Assume further that it takes three hours to load and unload.
The evacuation would then take more than three years with everything going on 24/7.

Of course, there aren't that many large ships available. Sure, Galaxy class ships can carry a lot more, but there are like 10 or so in Starfleet. Romulans probably don't have more than 50 Warbirds of that size. Even if you literally had 1000 Galaxy class ships you'd need around 100 days with this calculation. Of course, loading with transporters or shuttles has been shown to take much more time (the Enterprise spent many hours loading refugees to full capacity). Of course, no ship can do these operations for years without break. It is also unlikely that any given system can accommodate 5 billion people, so travel time may be more. Finally, there are probably many more Romulans in the system than that.


In essence, the task of evacuating an entire system relative to the ship sizes and fleet sizes that we know from Star Trek means that it is indeed an almost impossible task.
It is entirely possible that the Romulan empire has been evacuating citizens in "full force" for literal years, has hired all the outside help it could, and still the help of Starfleet would have been necessary.

That's like the one thing in this new series that is actually fine.

Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Feb 10, 2020

Ralph Crammed In
May 11, 2007
Let's get clean and smart

I want to see what Worf is up to now and I keep getting blue balled.

Also the Romulan brother and sister are pretty incesty and I haaaaate that that's just something they slip into TV now.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 30 hours!


Grimey Drawer


loving HELL!!!

gbs but from 2004
Oct 24, 2004

wow u rude pig


Son of Rodney posted:

Im currently almost done with voyager and a ST series with modern production values would own.

Son of Rodney posted:

Im currently almost done with voyager and a ST series with modern production values would own.

Already been said, but the Orville is what you’re looking for

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004



BoldFrankensteinMir posted:

In First Contact we find out that it was just dumb luck that the Enterprise D crew was around to man all the technical stations at the "first" warp experiment...

I thought Cochran had a crew set up to help him, but they were all killed or fled the area after the surprise Borg attack so Riker and Geordi had to fill in.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

A garden full of trees, and a pocket full of cheese.

Dr. Gojo Shioji posted:

I thought Cochran had a crew set up to help him, but they were all killed or fled the area after the surprise Borg attack so Riker and Geordi had to fill in.

Don't know if thats actually the case, but it sounds reasonable to me....

hemale in pain
Jun 5, 2010







Salad Prong

In some timeline Cochran must of succeeded by himself and his original crew made first contact but then loving future space jerks keep coming and messing with poo poo.

e: also we know starfleet have very easy access to time travel so they could go and 'fix' time criminals like the romulan guy who blew up vulcan. i think there's even time cops in enterprise!

hemale in pain fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Feb 10, 2020

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Haramstufe Rot posted:

One of the things they get right is
a) retconning the movie supernova from "destroying the galaxy" to "destroying the system".
b) the impossibility of evacuating a planet with fleets of normal sizes

what they don't get right is that there should be ample warning about the supernova. Still much better than movie Trek, as there seems to be enough time to assemble a rescue armada. But if the event is naturally occurring, Romulans would have known.


As for b) some nerd in the other thread calculated this. Assume there are 5 billion Romulans in the system.

Assume the Romulans have 1000 ships standing by that can carry 1200 people at a time. Assume you just need to Warp to some system which takes 1 hour. Assume further that it takes three hours to load and unload.
The evacuation would then take more than three years with everything going on 24/7.

Of course, there aren't that many large ships available. Sure, Galaxy class ships can carry a lot more, but there are like 10 or so in Starfleet. Romulans probably don't have more than 50 Warbirds of that size. Even if you literally had 1000 Galaxy class ships you'd need around 100 days with this calculation. Of course, loading with transporters or shuttles has been shown to take much more time (the Enterprise spent many hours loading refugees to full capacity). Of course, no ship can do these operations for years without break. It is also unlikely that any given system can accommodate 5 billion people, so travel time may be more. Finally, there are probably many more Romulans in the system than that.


In essence, the task of evacuating an entire system relative to the ship sizes and fleet sizes that we know from Star Trek means that it is indeed an almost impossible task.
It is entirely possible that the Romulan empire has been evacuating citizens in "full force" for literal years, has hired all the outside help it could, and still the help of Starfleet would have been necessary.

That's like the one thing in this new series that is actually fine.

Ah, that makes more sense, thanks! For a TNG series they may be taking the approach that starships are rare and large fleets uncommon, with the loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359 a crippling blow that left earth undefended, as opposed to DS9 where losing a hundred ships to the Dominion in a week was bad but recoverable.

Glad there is a coherent explanation in universe, I was worried it was like starkiller base destroying a handful of planets and apparently the entire new republic fleet had been parked there.

Piggy Smalls
Jun 21, 2015



The beginning title intro is confusing to me. I know it must mean something but can’t understand it. It seems a piece of nature or my tv cracks and a shard falls and somehow ends up piecing together Picard. What’s the significance.

hemale in pain
Jun 5, 2010







Salad Prong

Piggy Smalls posted:

The beginning title intro is confusing to me. I know it must mean something but can’t understand it. It seems a piece of nature or my tv cracks and a shard falls and somehow ends up piecing together Picard. What’s the significance.

i think it maybe implying we're all just star dust made out of the same stuff.

i mean, the theme of the series so far seems to be that romulans/humans/androids/holograms/ex-borg are all valid lifeforms and racism is bad.

Haramstufe Rot
Jun 24, 2016

President of the Erich Honecker Fan Club


Hyrax Attack! posted:

Ah, that makes more sense, thanks! For a TNG series they may be taking the approach that starships are rare and large fleets uncommon, with the loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359 a crippling blow that left earth undefended, as opposed to DS9 where losing a hundred ships to the Dominion in a week was bad but recoverable.

Glad there is a coherent explanation in universe, I was worried it was like starkiller base destroying a handful of planets and apparently the entire new republic fleet had been parked there.

I think the numbers come out to where it is a gargantuan task, not impossible given enough time (I think in the new universe we are talking about a couple of years of warning at least, at the minimum months).

I'd imagine the Romulans were evacuating with everything they could spare, but any need for other operations or political decisions that limit the rescue fleet means that - given the sparsity of large ships - it is very believable that the numbers just do not add up at the end. Like, they see that they will only be able to evacuate x% and at that point, they ask for help.


I also don't see a large inconsistency between TNG and DS9.
Space is very large, and even if the Federation has thousands of ships, it is entirely likely that it could only mass a couple of dozen ships for an immediate threat like the Borg.
In the Dominion wars, fleet operations were more coordinated and larger fleets were possible, but only because there was time to plan.

Similarly, in the current series, the Federation can build or convert a huge rescue fleet given enough time (many hundreds of transports) to save the Romulans. But it must have been a huge and expensive task, because they were only willing to do it once. After the fleet was destroyed initially (or parts of it?), Starfleet refused to do it again.


So yeah, I think the Star Trek mechanism is essentially that there are many ships available, and large fleets are theoretically possible, but during normal operations the space is so large that the density is low at any given point.

A Very Sexy Baby
Sep 25, 2007

I can't help it if men are attracted to me.


"Picard" is ignoring the gently caress out of DS9 and that makes me sad. JLP said to the reporter "you're a stranger to war" when San Francisco got flattened by the Dominion during her teens/20s.

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005



Hell Gem

Prism Mirror Lens posted:

If you violate prime directive to ‘save’ a non-space-faring society by beaming them up or moving them to another planet youve jacked up their entire culture anyway, so in a way you might as well have let them die
in the same way a james bond villain would justify killing mankind because practically no culture on earth is at all similar to what it was 40 years ago

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GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



the prime directive is basically just "do no harm" in space
it's meant to show that in the future we're educated and enlightened and unified as a species beyond individual ambition,

,you dumb bastard slime animals, its not the future yet, bat lords

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