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infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

the instrument of man's contempt for his fellow man, forever


Panzeh posted:

The middle 50 minutes or so of the RLM review video was a bunch of really boring continuity nitpicks that feel like padding. The rest of it's good, though.

The later Plinket reviews are often like that. The non-Plinket stuff RLM does is generally better and they don't do continuity nitpicks.

In this specific case, a lot of it is there to point out that a) the story doesn't really work, and b) the writing is a hacky mess, so trying to argue that the show is about the story or the characters more so than other series, doesn't hold up either, because they clearly didn't give a gently caress about writing a coherent narrative. The show is a bunch of pointless setpieces loosely strung together, for no real reason. Nothing actually happens, and despite the serialized format, very little is consistent from episode to episode.

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 16:07 on May 19, 2020

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Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Lmao dude 2020 and you haven't seen that guys take on phantom menace yet? I've seen you posting on SA for years.

Honestly good for you, what a thing to discover now

revwinnebago
Oct 4, 2017


skasion posted:

That article is deeply hilarious and I can’t tell whether it’s someone having a laugh at CBS’ expense or just CBS collectively awarding themselves the wokeness medal

Poe's Law. I can no longer write a Star Trek headline so woke that it would come off as inauthentic.

Gizmodo: "Picard's white engrams colonizing a synth body is problematic, and we need to talk about it."

infernal machines posted:

The later Plinket reviews are often like that. The non-Plinket stuff RLM does is generally better and they don't do continuity nitpicks.

I mean that's false.

There's a big blowup in the "culture" right now because people are trying to defend all the money they've wasted on vinyl figurines by saying that plot holes and continuity no longer matter, even conceptually, so you should consume product.

It's the new form of the argument back in the day when people were like, sure Bayformers is rear end, but so was the cartoon and somehow this justifies spending money on a movie ticket?

The point isn't rando nitpicking. It's that they're building evidence for the fact that the writers didn't even watch the old show so they missed basic aspects of character development and worldbuilding, and they're providing further evidence of even the internal inconsistencies in the writer's own show to evidence their complete lack of skill. The first Plinkett reviews were the Trek movies, and those are very quote unquote nitpicky. Like the purple space bazooka, or how the missiles cause stuntmen to get pulled into the air by wires.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

the instrument of man's contempt for his fellow man, forever


Did you read the rest of my post, or just stop at that line?

For some reason I thought he had done the Star Trek reviews after the Star Wars ones, rather than before.

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012





piratepilates posted:

they reached their internet fame off of similar reviews of the star wars prequels, you should check those out if you like this.

they also have a bunch more star trek reviews in the same vein, I think of all the tng movies? and they have a more casual, less teardown-y review of the tos motion picture. maybe a few other reviews of the older star trek movies in there?

also like 3 or 4 reviews of star trek disco.

basically you have a lot of content ahead of you


Statutory Ape posted:

Lmao dude 2020 and you haven't seen that guys take on phantom menace yet? I've seen you posting on SA for years.

Honestly good for you, what a thing to discover now

well, dope, I mean I'm a fan of the tng / tos movies even knowing that the TNG ones are deeply flawed, so I'm looking forward to more of this. i rather like the nitpicking, too, I'm coming off having just watched TOS/ENT/VOY and about to start TNG so I'm in the mood for detailed continuity / consistency analysis

dude watching this video even brought up specific things from DS9/VOY episodes that undermine Picard pretty profoundly and it's nice to see other people with a detailed memory of older episodes from the good treks

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



i love my old bad treks and also my old good treks

Prism Mirror Lens
Oct 9, 2012

~*"The most intelligent and meaning-rich film he could think of was Shaun of the Dead, I don't think either brain is going to absorb anything you post."*~






I like the continuity nitpicking, lmao at the two clips about Romulan cyberneticists

Captain Splendid
Jan 7, 2009

Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012





I only watched three episodes of Picard and this video explaining the actual plot has me completely

Why were the federation working with the romulans? Why is there a giant space tentacle? This vaguely relates to synths somehow? Even a point by point explanation of what happened doesn’t make it any more sensible or consistent with earlier Trek

shadow puppet of a
Jan 10, 2007

NO TENGO SCORPIO



Frog Act posted:

Why were the federation working with the romulans? Why is there a giant space tentacle? This vaguely relates to synths somehow?

You were told this. Repeatedly. The answer is "Brexit". Yes, really.

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Plinkett does it again!

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



Prism Mirror Lens posted:

I like the continuity nitpicking, lmao at the two clips about Romulan cyberneticists

I wouldn't mind if they didn't give a poo poo about two one-off lines in TNG if they actually had anything to say about synthetic life in the show(they really don't) but it was kinda weird to make the romulans important in the plot.

I think one of the things RLM honed in on was something about Data not being there to have positrons to clone, though Nemesis kinda did do the dumb thing and add a clone of data just in case they wanted Spiner there for another movie.

That being said, the bigger problem is pretty much that they wanted to have the Cool Data Moments but they're completely unrelated to the other 7 hours of show in between the Cool Data Moments and honestly it wouldn't have mattered anyway. They didn't want to just do a TNG rehash full of cameos from old TNG characters.. but they keep having cameos anyway, just not substantive ones.

I mean, even the better Star Trek stuff contradicts other Star Trek stuff and has plenty of nitpicks there, too, I don't think bad continuity is even in the top 10 of problems with Picard, it's just the easiest thing to meme on in a video.

Fashionable Jorts
Jan 18, 2010

Maybe if I'm busy it could keep me from you


Nitpicks are fun to point out, but really don't say much. It's fine to change a story and either ignore/forget little details that were established 30 years earlier by other writers. Whats bad is when they completely change characters, forget major plot points, and miss ethical conclusions previously established.

Its not a nitpick to point out that the super secret anti-robot romulan cabal seemed fine with Data openly wandering around as Chief Operations Officer of the Federation's flagship for years.

Fashionable Jorts fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 19, 2020

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

the instrument of man's contempt for his fellow man, forever


Where's the other Picard, if androids are created in pairs, as twins?

Is this a really lazy setup for a secret reveal/twist in season 2?

Does anyone even care?

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



i was most offended by the fact they said westworld was a good show

shadow puppet of a
Jan 10, 2007

NO TENGO SCORPIO



infernal machines posted:

Where's the other Picard, if androids are created in pairs, as twins?

Is this a really lazy setup for a secret reveal/twist in season 2?

I now really want a gold faced yellow eye Lore/Picard mashup to be the Big Bad of S2.

He can wear Lore's old Tactical Sweater Pec armor and still clutch at railings in Pic's frail body.

If Dahj's actress can teach Sir Patrick to mouth breathe it will be a perfect Soong Jr. Murder Clone.

Raffi and Potato Face Madoxx Killa can defeat it with another bit of Dale Chihuly blown glass that shows up out of absolutely nowhere and I'm amazed that actually was added to the story like that because I skimmed through Picard on VLC and had to go back across two episodes to see where that blue thing came from.

doctorfrog
Mar 14, 2007

Great.



Panzeh posted:

I wouldn't mind if they didn't give a poo poo about two one-off lines in TNG if they actually had anything to say about synthetic life in the show(they really don't) but it was kinda weird to make the romulans important in the plot.

I think one of the things RLM honed in on was something about Data not being there to have positrons to clone, though Nemesis kinda did do the dumb thing and add a clone of data just in case they wanted Spiner there for another movie.

That being said, the bigger problem is pretty much that they wanted to have the Cool Data Moments but they're completely unrelated to the other 7 hours of show in between the Cool Data Moments and honestly it wouldn't have mattered anyway. They didn't want to just do a TNG rehash full of cameos from old TNG characters.. but they keep having cameos anyway, just not substantive ones.

I mean, even the better Star Trek stuff contradicts other Star Trek stuff and has plenty of nitpicks there, too, I don't think bad continuity is even in the top 10 of problems with Picard, it's just the easiest thing to meme on in a video.

You can get away with a lot if you tell a story well.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

the instrument of man's contempt for his fellow man, forever


shadow puppet of a posted:

I now really want a gold faced yellow eye Lore/Picard mashup to be the Big Bad of S2.

He can wear Lore's old Tactical Sweater Pec armor and still clutch at railings in Pic's frail body.

If Dahj's actress can teach Sir Patrick to mouth breathe it will be a perfect Soong Jr. Murder Clone.

Raffi and Potato Face Madoxx Killa can defeat it with another bit of Dale Chihuly blown glass that shows up out of absolutely nowhere and I'm amazed that actually was added to the story like that because I skimmed through Picard on VLC and had to go back across two episodes to see where that blue thing came from.

The Maddox killer lady is from Toronto and is the same age as me. It's weird to suddenly know that, for no good reason.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced they're going to set up other Picard as some big bad down the road.

EimiYoshikawa
Sep 12, 2017

Defective, dumb, and self-destructive.

This metaphor is getting a little heavy-handed.


Megamarm

Frog Act posted:

I've never heard of mr plinkett or watched anything from RLM but, despite the goofy voice, it's really heartening to see other people outside of these forums who found nutrek totally intolerable. i couldn't get through picard and gave up after three episodes of romulan kung fu

ed: man this video is really good, I love the way he uses clips from voyager and other shows to really contrast the awfulness of the new shows. but what really gets me are these storyboards. it could have been interesting!

I don't want to ruin it for you, but those storyboards were drawn by Freddie Williams II, a comicbook artist and friend of the RLM crew.

They were never real, save for in your mind and our hearts.

Prism Mirror Lens
Oct 9, 2012

~*"The most intelligent and meaning-rich film he could think of was Shaun of the Dead, I don't think either brain is going to absorb anything you post."*~






Why’d they use the romulans as a main plot point anyway? “Uhhh yeah you know that race you’ve seen tons of times? Well it never came up before, but they don’t have androids synths. Just, yeah, like, nobody ever mentioned this unique thing about them before. Make the character say ‘didn’t you ever notice’, it’ll be fine.” Just make something new up ffs you have the whole galaxy at hand

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



Prism Mirror Lens posted:

Why’d they use the romulans as a main plot point anyway? “Uhhh yeah you know that race you’ve seen tons of times? Well it never came up before, but they don’t have androids synths. Just, yeah, like, nobody ever mentioned this unique thing about them before. Make the character say ‘didn’t you ever notice’, it’ll be fine.” Just make something new up ffs you have the whole galaxy at hand

Yeah, it's really weird- if the story is about Synths, what are the Romulans doing here- if the story is about a Romulan refugee crisis and the ramifications, why are we also talking about synths. Instead the show just kinda namedrops things and expects you to care.

For a group of people deciding to avoid too much fanservice by having the show feature people Picard would know, they can't help but do nonstop references to things, and they really wanted a classic villain group i guess.

The two reasonable romulan characters ask why Picard doesn't get his old adventuring buddies back and the line he uses to justify it is so bizarre that i don't know why they didn't cut this out because lampshading it made it even worse. "Oh, i don't want to ask my old friends to risk their lives for me, because they would. Welp, time to ask some strangers to risk their lives for me instead." It wouldn't have made much of a difference to have established characters because the plot and pacing is really dumb, though.

Panzeh fucked around with this message at 19:11 on May 19, 2020

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

the instrument of man's contempt for his fellow man, forever


It's bad television in general, it also happens to be bad at being Star Trek

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.





Panzeh posted:


The two reasonable romulan characters ask why Picard doesn't get his old adventuring buddies back and the line he uses to justify it is so bizarre that i don't know why they didn't cut this out because lampshading it made it even worse. "Oh, i don't want to ask my old friends to risk their lives for me, because they would. Welp, time to ask some strangers to risk their lives for me instead." It wouldn't have made much of a difference to have established characters because the plot and pacing is really dumb, though.

time to guilt trip and coerce:
- a random ex-officer who idolizes me
- a drunken train wreck of an addict whose life I seem to have destroyed
- an orphan boy who I "went to the store for cigarettes" to for 15 years
- just a scientist, don't have much about Jurati

in to joining me for this ragtag adventure about which I have almost no information, hope no one dies or anything!

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

GolfHole posted:

i was most offended by the fact they said westworld was a good show

I kinda liked the first season, but it (and S2 especially) went pretty fast into the overly clever, payoff-focused "see how long we can string you along week to week deepening our mystery" style of writing that plagues a lot of modern TV. And I don't think these writers learned the right lesson from it.

revwinnebago
Oct 4, 2017


Prism Mirror Lens posted:

Why’d they use the romulans as a main plot point anyway? “Uhhh yeah you know that race you’ve seen tons of times? Well it never came up before, but they don’t have androids synths. Just, yeah, like, nobody ever mentioned this unique thing about them before. Make the character say ‘didn’t you ever notice’, it’ll be fine.” Just make something new up ffs you have the whole galaxy at hand

No, they really don't. Let's go into the writers room:

(background sounds of razor blades tapping on glass and snorting and creepy comments about age of consent laws)

Writer: "So uh. Klingons?"

Kurzman: "Discovery."

Writer: "Vulcans?"

Kurzman: (sniffing) "Spock's in Discovery."

Writer: "poo poo. Right. Ferengi?"

Kurzman: "Who?"

Writer: "poo poo um..." (shuffling of papers) "Here it says something a Rome-u-len?"

Kurzman: "No clue."

Writer: "It says they're like Vulcans but they're violent."

Kurzman: (snapping fingers) "Yes. gently caress. Go."

(sound of groaning as writers shuffle off bean bag chairs and get back to the table)

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



tbh if they had just asked michael dorn he would have said the entire idea was without honor


just saying

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Prism Mirror Lens posted:

Why’d they use the romulans as a main plot point anyway? “Uhhh yeah you know that race you’ve seen tons of times? Well it never came up before, but they don’t have androids synths. Just, yeah, like, nobody ever mentioned this unique thing about them before. Make the character say ‘didn’t you ever notice’, it’ll be fine.” Just make something new up ffs you have the whole galaxy at hand

Simplest explanation is someone wanted space elf sword fights and adopted the pointy eared guys because why not. Their entire culture is based on destroying synthetic life, uh, but for some reason they never had an issue with Data or took a shot at Dr. Soong but are now willing to risk war over this.

Romulans are good as a TV show villain and when written well we get In the Pale Moonlight, but aren't interesting enough or sufficiently well developed to be movie villains or to sustain a whole season. Nemesis was trash, Star Trek 2009 was ok but they were pretty much space pirates, and Picard was nonsense.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

Honestly I don't think think having the Romulans be a focus is a problem in itself. It shouldn't be that difficult to give them some development that would hold up for a short season, especially with the plot hook of their home having been destroyed. It just comes down to the writers' skills and focus again.

shadow puppet of a
Jan 10, 2007

NO TENGO SCORPIO



Its a blessing that they chose the Romulans despite the vast amount of in-universe reasons why it was a terrible choice. it was good because it left my perfect and beautiful Cardassians alone and untained by the need to squish an entire race into the Mass Effect 3 framework.

"We need to break into the Cardassian starbase, but how?"
"Easy, I'll just transport in a permission pass to the central office, Cardassians are terrible record keepers, very disorganized!"

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012






this enabran erasure has gone too far

ILL Machina
Mar 25, 2004

Glory to Arstotzka!

Finally got around to the plinkett review. Nailed it. What amazing editing. Was nearly in tears at the end with the clips from the old shows preceding the newtrek montage. I feel pretty good about ignoring this series and pretending it's been a fever dream now.

Would be pretty entertaining to see patstew or kurtzman respond.

MAKE PICARD GAY YOU COWARDS

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Grimey Drawer

ILL Machina posted:

Would be pretty entertaining to see patstew or kurtzman respond.

Instead of a fully thought out 2-3 paragraph response, Kurtzman replies with 4,366 tweets, each of which is only 3 characters in length.

(no, they do not piece together to form a coherent message)

ILL Machina
Mar 25, 2004

Glory to Arstotzka!

Blistex posted:

Instead of a fully thought out 2-3 paragraph response, Kurtzman replies with 4,366 tweets, each of which is only 3 characters in length.

(no, they do not piece together to form a coherent message)

The pieces that you can compile are gaslighting, whining that you didn't give it a chance and recognize the love put it into it.

Ok, maybe Kurtzmans response wouldn't be entertaining.

Bonzo
Mar 11, 2004

Just like Mama used to make it!


Dinosaur Gum

so are they going to do the Star Wars route and release 10 books that explain all the plot holes and attempt to wrap up "theories"?

"Well see, in the new 5 series Peter David novels, we see why the Romulans hate robots"

Except it would probably be Kevin J Anderson because PD would probably make it all work.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


What was ridiculous to me was that practically every loving character had a tragic backstory. Like, goddamn, even Battlestar Galactica - the show set on a ship deliberately contrived to be full of gently caress-ups and last-timers - had a few characters that weren't touched by tragedy before the Cylons hit.


Panzeh posted:

For a group of people deciding to avoid too much fanservice by having the show feature people Picard would know, they can't help but do nonstop references to things, and they really wanted a classic villain group i guess.

"Heh, this ain't your daddy's Star Trek! ...oh god, please notice these references to your daddy's Star Trek, we're desperate for validation."

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Captain Hygiene posted:

Honestly I don't think think having the Romulans be a focus is a problem in itself. It shouldn't be that difficult to give them some development that would hold up for a short season, especially with the plot hook of their home having been destroyed. It just comes down to the writers' skills and focus again.

Agreed. Like take a second and look at TNG's major episodes and it's not hard. In TNG it's established that Spock is helping usher in a new era amongst the young people in the romulan empire, working towards unification. So you you write it as "ok, so spock worked on this and even tried to help save romulus as evidence in trek 2009. in the aftermath of that disaster and his disapearnce, compounded with the destruction of their home world, a faction of romunlans develops their own interpritation of the Vulcan's extreme logic obsession, but without guidance from Vulcans, they feel the logical step is to prevent artificial life from developing past the point it has, otherwise natural life could be wiped out. Starfleet enlists the help of picard to establish diplomatic relations with both the Romulan extremists and the newly established Artificial life colony (still banned in the aftermath of their dumb attack on mars) to avoid a war that he spent a career holding back"

Like that's not perfect by any means, but it took me all of 1 minute to come up with an outline that at least acknowledges past themes, events, and character, and still allows plenty of room to change things up in a more action oriented series since that's what they seem to want. It's not that hard, but the entire show reeked of Alex Kurtzman coming in with a checklist of poo poo he wanted in the show, and not giving a poo poo about how they were implemented.

I mean for fucks sake, even trek 2009 had some interesting and compelling reasons why the characters would be different than series people remembered.

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Grimey Drawer

Biohazard posted:

<stuff that's easily 10x better than what we got>

OK, so your first problem is acknowledging anything JJ Abrams wrote.
Your second problem is thinking anything that Kurtzman thought up is salvageable.

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Blistex posted:

OK, so your first problem is acknowledging anything JJ Abrams wrote.
Your second problem is thinking anything that Kurtzman thought up is salvageable.

I honestly don't take issue with the abrams movies becuase they don't pretend to be something they are not. They found a kinda clever way to wipe out the history without ruining what came before, so they could make a star trek movie that was more action oriented. It was exciting and fun, if dumb and not really much of a star trek story, but whatever, fun summer blockbuster.

Point is, you can change it up and do pure entertainment if what you write is at least interesting and well done. But if you're going to rely on pure nostalgia, you should at least be willing to accept what came before it. It's honestly the same problem (ok well one of many problems) that abrams ran into with the star wars sequels which is, if all you're going to do is rely on nostolgia, at least look at what the themes of those movies were and build on them. Even lucas realized the limitations of this with his prequels, and while they are kinda disasters in their own way, they at least had the balls to just do something totally different with the world that had been set up previously.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Frog Act posted:

this enabran erasure has gone too far

i c u

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Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Grimey Drawer

Here's hoping that Kurtzman dedicates all his time towards the Silence of the Lambs TV show and just ignores ST:SNW. I don't know if it's supposed to be a massive budget, "premiere television" show, or just a weekly thing, but it's different than pretty much everything else he has worked on, and might be seen as something a little more likely to get him some praise. (ok, I have no idea, but I really, really hope Pike and Co. have a decent chance without the JJ crew loving it up).

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