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AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019

Universe existed for 13.8 billion years before humans and will exist for trillions years more after the last human is forgotten.
So what was your problem again?


Animal-Mother posted:

Picard wasn't even tight with Data like that on the show.

You are wrong and RLM is wrong.

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GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



picard probably treated data like Q treated picard

ILL Machina
Mar 25, 2004

Glory to Arstotzka!

GolfHole posted:

picard probably treated data like Q treated picard

Whoaaaaaa

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Going back and watching tng one after the other is kinda hilarious. With about 24 episodes a season, and every season being about a year, then each episode takes place roughly every 2 weeks. So every 2 weeks something loving awful happens to someone, or the whole ship, and at least a few people are going to die, probably in horrible ways. Why would anyone serve in starfleet, and more importantly, who thought it was a good idea to have children on board the USS You’re Gonna Die? Turns out Star Trek is a really dark comedy.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



GolfHole posted:

picard probably treated data like Q treated picard

"probably"

i mean the episodes are still there to watch, you can just idk, speak from a position of knowledge instead of being wrong

Breakfast All Day
Oct 21, 2004

And what haunts me is that in all the faces of all the bears, I discover no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. I see only the overwhelming indifference of nature.


AntherUslessPoster posted:

You are wrong and RLM is wrong.

Yeah, RLM seizing on Picard's S1 treatment of Data as being proof "Picard hates Data" is strange, I don't know why they kept hammering that point in multiple vids. But what do you expect from someone whose favorite Trek show is Voyager. There's some subtext throughout the series of Picard being uncomfortable with Data because Data is eager to embrace things in search of refining his humanity (humor, willingness to embarrass himself, etc.) that Picard has sought to discard to refine his own -- at the same time Data excels at cognitive clarity and a form of stoicism that Picard envies. This is amplified by Data seeing Picard as a role model, which intersects with the Picard/children discomfort. This is maybe the one thing STP almost got right, in Data coming to terms with his mortality and death before Picard (who is clearly disturbed by his condition and struggles to communicate it to those around him, while Data can show both vulnerability and resoluteness to Picard in asking to end his life). But TNG is clear that by the late seasons Picard considers Data a friend of a similar tier to Riker, and perhaps is only closer to Crusher.

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Breakfast All Day posted:

Yeah, RLM seizing on Picard's S1 treatment of Data as being proof "Picard hates Data" is strange, I don't know why they kept hammering that point in multiple vids. But what do you expect from someone whose favorite Trek show is Voyager. There's some subtext throughout the series of Picard being uncomfortable with Data because Data is eager to embrace things in search of refining his humanity (humor, willingness to embarrass himself, etc.) that Picard has sought to discard to refine his own -- at the same time Data excels at cognitive clarity and a form of stoicism that Picard envies. This is amplified by Data seeing Picard as a role model, which intersects with the Picard/children discomfort. This is maybe the one thing STP almost got right, in Data coming to terms with his mortality and death before Picard (who is clearly disturbed by his condition and struggles to communicate it to those around him, while Data can show both vulnerability and resoluteness to Picard in asking to end his life). But TNG is clear that by the late seasons Picard considers Data a friend of a similar tier to Riker, and perhaps is only closer to Crusher.

I agree, though I do think some of the issues with the TNG movies and then STP after is that they really only acknowledge picard's relationship with data. I agree that RLM might take the point a bit far, but there is something to the idea that Picard grew closer to all of his crew, not just Data. I mean that was kind of the point of the poker scene in the finale. But as RLM pointed out in one of the review episodes, you get to the movies and the producers basically went "ok, who are the most popular characters on the show? Data and Picard? Okay the movies are just going to be about them with the rest of the cast thrown in for fan service. I have heard that some of that had to do with Rick Berman seemingly hating women, but I'm sure there were plenty of people involved in those decisions. I mean honestly, can you think of 1 scene in the TNG movies in which any of the women did anything interesting? Or really any of the other characters?

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS


Nap Ghost

Beverly Crusher activated the EMH in First Contact.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Breakfast All Day posted:

But TNG is clear that by the late seasons Picard considers Data a friend of a similar tier to Riker, and perhaps is only closer to Crusher.

I finished watching all of TNG recently and I cannot remember this taking place. Picard had a more personal relationship with Q than he had with Data.

Fashionable Jorts
Jan 18, 2010

Maybe if I'm busy it could keep me from you


Picard and Data hardly interact outside of their command structure. Like, I'm sure that Picard had immense respect for Data as a person and an officer, but they were not friends any more than my boss and I are friends (friendly at work, never once interacted outside of work).

Picard from the new series is a completely different character than Picard from TNG.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



Biohazard posted:

I agree, though I do think some of the issues with the TNG movies and then STP after is that they really only acknowledge picard's relationship with data. I agree that RLM might take the point a bit far, but there is something to the idea that Picard grew closer to all of his crew, not just Data. I mean that was kind of the point of the poker scene in the finale. But as RLM pointed out in one of the review episodes, you get to the movies and the producers basically went "ok, who are the most popular characters on the show? Data and Picard? Okay the movies are just going to be about them with the rest of the cast thrown in for fan service. I have heard that some of that had to do with Rick Berman seemingly hating women, but I'm sure there were plenty of people involved in those decisions. I mean honestly, can you think of 1 scene in the TNG movies in which any of the women did anything interesting? Or really any of the other characters?

TNG itself had trouble writing good stuff for the women on the show, much less the movies, but yeah in the movies they were just Data n Picard because those were the two highest paid actors who had a semblence of control so they let Spiner do weird slapstick and Stewart fire machine guns and drive dune buggies.

I also think RLM's a bit off base with that. While Picard certainly isn't Data's best friend, that would be Geordi, they're not exactly distant, either. Picard would absolutely be willing to do Data a favor or help him however he could. That being said, Data in Picard is just pure fanservice, he has no bearing on anything else in the show. They're not bad scenes in isolation, but I really don't think TNG series picard dreams about Data like that.

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004


Picard gave Data guidance frequently enough, in Generations he even told him to stop crying.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



tbh i would also tell my second officer to stop crying at work too

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004


The writer of Nemesis was best friends with Spiner hence him being a big deal in that movie and watching Nemesis obviously was the biggest influence on the writers of The Picard Show

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Mulaney Power Move posted:

Picard gave Data guidance frequently enough, in Generations he even told him to stop crying.

Oh yeah. Couldn’t remember if that really happened or if that was a memory of my dad. He kinda looks like Picard.

Biohazard
Apr 17, 2002



Mulaney Power Move posted:

The writer of Nemesis was best friends with Spiner hence him being a big deal in that movie and watching Nemesis obviously was the biggest influence on the writers of The Picard Show

Yeah I think I remember reading that spiner also was pretty done with it all, as it required staying in decent shape all the time and for him, especially as he aged, more and more time in the makeup chair. I don’t think nemesis was necessarily supposed to be the last TNG movie, so I think he demanded they kill him off.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Then they just find a Soong android in the desert of a random planet. Gee, that was lucky. Then Data puts his brain in the other android right before dying, so he doesn't really die anyway. And the android's name is B-4. Before. Because it was a prototype of Data.

I squeeze gats, I squeeze gats...

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

Picard obviously had some type of close relationship with Data, to keep him an active officer rather than being sent to eternal space jail for singlehandedly commandeering the ship multiple times, putting not only officers but civilians and even small children in immense danger.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



if you bring your kids to work and work has photon torpedos idk what to tell you

Fashionable Jorts
Jan 18, 2010

Maybe if I'm busy it could keep me from you


Pretty sure if someone got fired for taking over the ship at some point, there wouldn't be anyone in starfleet

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Klingons had it right

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.





Statutory Ape posted:

if you bring your kids to work and work has photon torpedos idk what to tell you

HOT TAKE: voyager did the "family onboard a spaceship" part better than tng, mostly because there's very few kids on board the dangerous spaceship, and the kids that are on-board were forced in to it by circumstance rather than a parent who thought this was a good idea.

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

Fashionable Jorts posted:

Picard and Data hardly interact outside of their command structure. Like, I'm sure that Picard had immense respect for Data as a person and an officer, but they were not friends any more than my boss and I are friends (friendly at work, never once interacted outside of work).

Picard from the new series is a completely different character than Picard from TNG.

Sort of, but I can buy all this because TNG Picard was largely only capable (emotionally and situationally) of relating to people through command structure, and Picard Picard has had over a decade under his belt of that having been yanked away from him.

I mean, I think Picard's big arc in the new show is supposed to be learning how to deal with people on a more intimate level.

I can also buy Picard feeling some closer bond to Data as the result of the TNG movies. I mean, I would feel pretty close to some guy by third time we traded rounds of "I'll sacrifice my life for yours."

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

piratepilates posted:

HOT TAKE: voyager did the "family onboard a spaceship" part better than tng, mostly because there's very few kids on board the dangerous spaceship, and the kids that are on-board were forced in to it by circumstance rather than a parent who thought this was a good idea.

Hot take: they should put kids back in Star Trek again. They were never my favorite thing in the old shows, but I have to admit that having a few people have their families around definitely served in not letting the setting become overly militaristic.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

I wish we'd seen Cardassians in the movies. Their scaly lizard-ness could look really ghoulish on the big screen.

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.





Drink-Mix Man posted:

Hot take: they should put kids back in Star Trek again. They were never my favorite thing in the old shows, but I have to admit that having a few people have their families around definitely served in not letting the setting become overly militaristic.

I think the emotional backbone of star trek is a split between a workplace sitcom and a family sitcom. tos was more workplace than family, tng and ds9 had a lot more family stuff in there.

if you take out those elements you're just left with plain sci-fi concepts, which isn't bad, but doesn't engage the viewer on the same level as it would if you care for the characters experiencing them. bring back kids!

Haramstufe Rot
Jun 24, 2016

President of the Erich Honecker Fan Club


The problem with STP is that it's a show about Picard. And while everyone loved Picard, TNG was not a show about Picard. There just isn't a lot of stuff to go on to say that STP Picard can not be TNG Picard. Like, I wish they'd have chosen a different storyline and less on the nose writing, but some parts were decent.

Among those chiefly Riker and Troy actually calling out Picard for his bullshit. Because while Picard was a great captain and role-model in a command structure, we have little idea to what degree he was a functioning social being. And indeed many things - up to the very last scene of TNG - point to the fact that he was not. He worked within the command structure but was probably uncomfortable to be around elsewhere.

I still think STP could have been worse, but it could have been much better. There were too many characters, too much bullshit and not enough building for such a time jump.
And yes, they could have focused more on some core conflict of Picard that's actually foreshadowed in some way. But who knows whether that would have worked?

Honestly, they just missed a tiny bit of exposition as to what happened to Picard and why he reveres Data now. Was it that Data saved him? Seems a bit too small.
If they would have found a more philosophical reason behind it, the show and in fact the whole storyline would not have been so bad at all.

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS


Nap Ghost

Counterpoint: no part of Picard is good and it has no redeeming features whatsoever. It is the product of a Mirror Universe style application of Kubrick’s “every frame a painting” philosophy where absolutely every single frame and line of dialogue in Picard is complete poo poo and even still combines to be less than the sum of its parts.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

It gave me moments of hope and optimism beforehand and learning to live past it has made me stronger as a person

Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005



Fashionable Jorts posted:

Nah, Voyager was more fun. While it definitely has some really bad episodes, it's definitely more watchable than Enterprise.

I always felt like Voyager's best episodes were better but the worst episodes were worse. Probably why the Enterprise vs Voyager argument continues even now. Might be why Voyager survived the full 7 seasons. The cliffhangers were good enough to generate TNG-level enthusiasm for the next season each time, and make people think "okay, NOW the show is getting good".

Glenn Quebec
Oct 30, 2005

That's because our downstream reality reflects an upstream case but I'm going to violate it.

Janeway was a good Captain.

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

Haramstufe Rot posted:

Honestly, they just missed a tiny bit of exposition as to what happened to Picard and why he reveres Data now. Was it that Data saved him? Seems a bit too small.
If they would have found a more philosophical reason behind it, the show and in fact the whole storyline would not have been so bad at all.

This is a spot on observation. Because the way the show ended, I found myself having to think about the whole thing sort of mentally squint and go "Huh. Yeah, I guess the Data thing was supposed to be really important. I guess that makes sense." Rather than "Wow, that was nice how they tied that all together."

Prism Mirror Lens
Oct 9, 2012

~*"The most intelligent and meaning-rich film he could think of was Shaun of the Dead, I don't think either brain is going to absorb anything you post."*~






Can someone point to specific,examples of TNG Picard not being able to relate to people or being uncomfortable outside of command? Like I said before, he seems like a normal guy at work to me. If anything the DS9 situation where they’re all best friends who go to the holodeck together is more weird

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS


Nap Ghost

Prism Mirror Lens posted:

Can someone point to specific,examples of TNG Picard not being able to relate to people or being uncomfortable outside of command? Like I said before, he seems like a normal guy at work to me. If anything the DS9 situation where they’re all best friends who go to the holodeck together is more weird

Just off the top of my head Picard was super weird about getting his heart transplant from Pulaski even though she was a super heart expert.

Not the best example but it was the one that sprang immediately to mind.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

We'll make diamonds from their ashes. Take them into battle with us.

Craft a Diamond Dog diamond?
Nah.   Let's do it!




College Slice

That was early in the series, he was always formal but a big part of his development was becoming a more relaxed, comfortable person after starting out as that weirdly awkward guy who couldn't ever let himself not be the stoic captain or related to the crew much outside the job.

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

Applewhite posted:

Counterpoint: no part of Picard is good and it has no redeeming features whatsoever. It is the product of a Mirror Universe style application of Kubrick’s “every frame a painting” philosophy where absolutely every single frame and line of dialogue in Picard is complete poo poo and even still combines to be less than the sum of its parts.

The Romulan former Tal Shiar agents were good, unfortunately the show dropped them like a hot potato and replaced them with boring, incoherent assholes (which adds up I guess since those characters suit the show)


Bodyholes posted:

I always felt like Voyager's best episodes were better but the worst episodes were worse. Probably why the Enterprise vs Voyager argument continues even now. Might be why Voyager survived the full 7 seasons. The cliffhangers were good enough to generate TNG-level enthusiasm for the next season each time, and make people think "okay, NOW the show is getting good".

ENT was doomed because UPN was doomed; unless the network had a real chance at continuing I doubt that Paramount would have let the CW snap the show up for another 3 seasons. Star Trek was one of the only things that network had going for it by design and without UPN the franchise could have ended with a very different DS9.

Haramstufe Rot posted:

Honestly, they just missed a tiny bit of exposition as to what happened to Picard and why he reveres Data now. Was it that Data saved him? Seems a bit too small.
If they would have found a more philosophical reason behind it, the show and in fact the whole storyline would not have been so bad at all.

They were expecting the audience to have seen, remember and care about Nemesis. I get the impression most of the writers probably haven't seen much TNG beyond that, maybe the other films too since they bothered to include a model of the captain's yacht from Insurrection for some reason in that bit with the museum like it was an important part of Picard's life or something

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS


Nap Ghost

Including the captain’s yacht, a concept that never once featured onscreen during the entire run of the series, in a museum of Picard memorabilia is pretty much a distillation of Picard’s shittiness.

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS


Nap Ghost

Yes I know it featured in Insurrection.

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017



Insurrection got lucky it managed to not be the worst TNG movie so tbh pandering to somebody that even remembers it is bad


SADDLE UP

LOCK AND LOAD

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Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005



I think it was the worst next gen movie but people hate Nemesis more for killing Star Trek, which is understandable.

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