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Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Xiahou Dun posted:

That's a drat good quote.

And I assumed it was taken at a Dutch angle rather than the structure just happening to be perfectly off from true. Does the building have ritual or religious significance? I'm assuming it's not just a really boss looking roof which is all I'm getting from my ignorant perspective.

Yeah, here's the original: https://www.pinterest.dk/pin/301811612508814761/

I haven't actually bothered to translate the runes, which could definitely end up in a problematic and hilarious result. Perhaps I shall!

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Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003






Fallen Rib

Tias posted:

Yeah, here's the original: https://www.pinterest.dk/pin/301811612508814761/

I haven't actually bothered to translate the runes, which could definitely end up in a problematic and hilarious result. Perhaps I shall!

What a lovely note for me to jump in on, perfect.

As you probably ken from the Buddhism and religion threads, I'm a Tibetan language translator. I've also spent most of my life in pagan adjacent spaces of both non-Christian religion and occultism, so naturally I've run into heathen sorts. I would like to learn more about runes!

In my exposure, runes come in two "alphabets," the older of which has more characters and is generally what people in new age circles are on about as well as pagans and so on. I imagine the bulk of extant written poetry is in the younger form and the elder form is scanter just because, well, it's elder.

I'm interested in how the writing here works, the importance of the writing itself in magics of various sorts, and so on. Today most of what I see when I hear about "bindrunes" are essentially a form of sigilization and likely quite modern, but I could be mistaken in that. After all, sigilization itself is nothing new, what with seals of spirits being made from kamea at least as early as the the early renaissance, though of course that's also relatively modern compared to when the futhark alphabets would've been in use as I understand it?

They track like an alphabet, and so one can imagine things being written with them just as they might be written with English letters, yeah? And there are unique letters that persist in Norse today as I understand it (the troublesome "th" for example).

So, from a reconstructivist perspective, how do we see them used in magic? What constitutes a "bindrune" when removed from the context of modern pagans taking any ol' pantheon they like and jamming it into the Golden Dawn's stuff? Much of modern paganism is reskinned Gardnerian Wicca which is itself just reskinned Rosicrucian stuff which is reskinned Co-Masonry and on and on down the line of derivation, and then in true Masonic form, taking that and going "welp, this obviously dates to [a super ancient event]."

Obviously with an oral tradition being extinct and only having the artifacts to work with, can we see obvious magical deployments of runes and such?

In other sectors of the occult community it's become popular to flag any given practice one does that lacks a historical precedent but comes from a personal realization as "unverified personal gnosis." This, to me, is a great development: it divorces the claim from concerns about it claiming to have a kind of historicity that isn't necessarily present, while still leaving room for a person to practice whatever they want (after all, if the gods are living gods then why would their traditions not be living traditions that evolve in relation to the cultural moment? Something the Mormons do well enough, at least, for example). Do we see this happening much within heathenry, or is it still mostly shrouded in mostly bullshit claims based on vague hunches and throwing the Norse skin over the generic neopaganism?

Another example of what seems to me like a reskinned practice is the throwing of runes or casting of runes based on their names as a form of divination. The style of casting them is not dissimilar from any other style of casting things, but the way it's read is essentially "Tarot but we're going to look at a character instead of a picture on a card" and, well, seems extremely modern. Again, casting lots is a practice with a lot of history to it but that form of divination is not; historical divination practices tended not to be much about esoteric whatever and instead tended to be very specifically about very practical matters. For that kind of divination, pulling symbols out of a bag are uncommon. You don't want much interpretation when you're asking straightforward questions.

So, do we actually know anything historically about divination via runes, or is this a modern confabulation? (Not that the modern confabulation is a bad thing, I'm not saying that, but this thread is about the more historical stuff and I'd love to know more about that in particular).

And then there's the "meanings of the runes," in the sense that the runes have names and the names seem to be translatable. E.g. you have "wealth," "iron," "need," "ice," and so on. When you're translating runes, do the meanings in this sense have any linguistic functions? Or are they just names for the symbols that represent the phonemes and you transliterate it like an alphabet, and those happen to be one letter words? For example in Tibetan the letter "ka" is also the word "ka" which is the word "mouth," but to my knowledge the symbol and that word are unrelated except that the word is spelled that way. You might use it for a pun, but "ka" in the kakhaga does not mean "mouth," it's just a letter, and that letter happens to mean "mouth." Same as nobody would say "I" in the alphabet means the pronoun.

Do the runes' names serve some function in historical magic application that we know of? Or is that also a modern thing?

Basically, I'd love to hear about bindrunes, the use of runes in magic, and so on.

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


Is it OK to ask about Nordic folklore in this thread? Because I'm trying to dig up a very specific Scandinavian monster I heard about.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


BattyKiara posted:

Is it OK to ask about Nordic folklore in this thread? Because I'm trying to dig up a very specific Scandinavian monster I heard about.

Definitely, I can't imagine I won't be able to at least point you in the right direction

Paramemetic posted:

What a lovely note for me to jump in on, perfect.

As you probably ken from the Buddhism and religion threads, I'm a Tibetan language translator. I've also spent most of my life in pagan adjacent spaces of both non-Christian religion and occultism, so naturally I've run into heathen sorts. I would like to learn more about runes!

In my exposure, runes come in two "alphabets," the older of which has more characters and is generally what people in new age circles are on about as well as pagans and so on. I imagine the bulk of extant written poetry is in the younger form and the elder form is scanter just because, well, it's elder.

There are more than two, but you've made the important distinction: between the older and younger futharc, from which other runic scripts (anglo-saxon, Danish long rune and that Swedish valley script) derive. You would be correct about the poetry, only scattered uses of the elder futharc exists in the form of inscriptions on jewelry, tools and runestones.

quote:

I'm interested in how the writing here works, the importance of the writing itself in magics of various sorts, and so on. Today most of what I see when I hear about "bindrunes" are essentially a form of sigilization and likely quite modern, but I could be mistaken in that. After all, sigilization itself is nothing new, what with seals of spirits being made from kamea at least as early as the the early renaissance, though of course that's also relatively modern compared to when the futhark alphabets would've been in use as I understand it?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'how writing works'. Each of the letters correspond to a noise in proto-norse and old norse (probably derived itself from an italic alphabec, maybe etruscan), so you're basically writing a sentence the way you might say it.

quote:

They track like an alphabet, and so one can imagine things being written with them just as they might be written with English letters, yeah? And there are unique letters that persist in Norse today as I understand it (the troublesome "th" for example).

Yes, and in fact you can use anglo-saxon runes to write old English with! Only Icelandic maintains the 'th' letter in their script, or perhaps the faroese do to, but the scandinavian languages have largely moved to latin alphabets, with a couple of weird additions (like æ ø å in my native Danish).

quote:

So, from a reconstructivist perspective, how do we see them used in magic? What constitutes a "bindrune" when removed from the context of modern pagans taking any ol' pantheon they like and jamming it into the Golden Dawn's stuff? Much of modern paganism is reskinned Gardnerian Wicca which is itself just reskinned Rosicrucian stuff which is reskinned Co-Masonry and on and on down the line of derivation, and then in true Masonic form, taking that and going "welp, this obviously dates to [a super ancient event]."

From a reconstructionist perspective... In every conceivable kind of way. Mostly it's people reading stuff by grifters and hacks (or wiccans, which depending on your perspective may be the same thing, many heathens despise 'wiccatru' while doing just as modern stuff themselves - when I get to explaining the elements of modern heathen blót you'll see that principle components are copied from wicca). There is no official version of neither heathenry nor seidr/magic use, and so no one can tell anyone else they're doing it wrong.

I read a compelling case on bindrunes by a dude going on anglo-saxon sources, in which bindrunes are putting multiple runes on top of each other, getting a sort of matrix that combine the associations of the runes (themselves a colossal :worms: as we don't have a lot to go on there). The old norse themselves did use bind runes, but they don't look a lot like the ones people use today, which are geomatrically pleasing ligatures of runes on top of each other.



Above we see an old bindrune from the runestone sö 158, depicting a boat with the mast being a ligature of runes. Is it meant to be magic? Who knows.



Here we see the logo for the band Wardruna, which is an intentional attempt to work magic with runes: It is the letters comprising the band name, the band name being something like 'Warden of secret knowledge' in old norse. I've heard Selvik speak on the matter several times, and his methods are essentially thinking about how the old norse might have done it, and doing something new with it. He also works extensively with historical sources, like how we've found staves and baseplates with runes where words and runes were repeated on purpose, which seems to have mystical significance.



Here's a random rear end in a top hat with a 'bindrune' taken from a 'traditional nordic tattoo' facebook group after a couple of seconds of searching. It appears somewhat inspired by the icelandic rune amulets from the medieval spell grimoires found around 1200s, but is just a ligature without any apparent meaning save that of the visible runes, like Othala and Fehu. To each their own, I think stuff like this is an offense to the runes.


quote:

Obviously with an oral tradition being extinct and only having the artifacts to work with, can we see obvious magical deployments of runes and such?

In other sectors of the occult community it's become popular to flag any given practice one does that lacks a historical precedent but comes from a personal realization as "unverified personal gnosis."

Obviously rooted in historical practice? No, definitely not. Rooted in artifacts and mention in sagas? Sure. Rooted in UPG? Constantly.

However, I would be remiss to not mention folkloric rune magic. While the old norse use is more or less unknown (save that in the sagas, but as I've said often enough they're not a reliable primary source), use of runes continued by the ostensibly christianized scandinavians far into the late rennaisance. The icelandic magic-staves are the best known ones, but they are taken from the spell-books christian (or perhaps christo-pagan) magic workers long after the other bind-runes were struck, in the 1800s.

Known as 'galdrastafr' ("shouting staves", galdr specifically being a kind of heathen magic that involves communication or the voice), they are more like sigilistic drawins than proper futharc ligatures.

I have both of these tattooed on me long before they were everywhere (today you can spot them on US brand name clothing and in HBO's vikings ), but more from the fact that they're nice and pretty reminders of history than a strong belief in their magic. Still, as a heathen I hope and believe that it is possible I could derive some of the benefits!



The Œgishjalmr, or 'Helm of Awe/Terror', is mentioned both in the galdrabokr (grimoires found in Iceland), and in the Völsunga sagas, where the Sigurd finds this helmet in the hoard of the dragon Fafnir after killing it. The poetic edda also says the following of it:

"The Helm of Awe
I wore before the sons of men
In defense of my treasure;
Amongst all, I alone was strong,
I thought to myself,
For I found no power a match for my own"

Going on the material in the galdrabokr and the sagas, we can surmise that this bind-rune might strike fear into the hearts of your enemies (it is supposed to be painted on your forehead), and protect yourself from fear.



The Vegvisr (Way-pointer/shower) is a magic compass that will dispel bad weather. The galdrabokr says, in skaldic prose, that wearing it means "never losing one's way in storms or bad weather, even when the way is not known".

quote:

This, to me, is a great development: it divorces the claim from concerns about it claiming to have a kind of historicity that isn't necessarily present, while still leaving room for a person to practice whatever they want (after all, if the gods are living gods then why would their traditions not be living traditions that evolve in relation to the cultural moment? Something the Mormons do well enough, at least, for example). Do we see this happening much within heathenry, or is it still mostly shrouded in mostly bullshit claims based on vague hunches and throwing the Norse skin over the generic neopaganism?

70-30, I'd say. Many who practice are either willfully or contentedly ignorant of how old or authentic their practice it, leaving that to their organization and their priests. I have nothing against UPG, and some of my own practice is derived from my own communication with gods and spirits. I'm more annoyed with the many and influential 'heathens' who spread anti-modern and even anti-heathen racist teachings because they know no one's gonna ask questions.

quote:

Another example of what seems to me like a reskinned practice is the throwing of runes or casting of runes based on their names as a form of divination. The style of casting them is not dissimilar from any other style of casting things, but the way it's read is essentially "Tarot but we're going to look at a character instead of a picture on a card" and, well, seems extremely modern. Again, casting lots is a practice with a lot of history to it but that form of divination is not; historical divination practices tended not to be much about esoteric whatever and instead tended to be very specifically about very practical matters. For that kind of divination, pulling symbols out of a bag are uncommon. You don't want much interpretation when you're asking straightforward questions.

I'm neither a historian nor an archeologist, so you're getting a mildly qualified guess, ok? I don't think divination was done with runes at all. We know of the presence of at least some shamans among the iron age scandinations, so if you wanted a clear answer to something, you could enter the drum trance and go ask the spirits or gods yourself where they live. Perhaps people also god-quested or were ridden by gods in the manner of other cultures using ritual drama and/or possession.

Runic divination seems to be either A) completely new-age derived or B) grifters and authors reskinning the new age stuff and claiming they found the real deal somewhere.

quote:

And then there's the "meanings of the runes," in the sense that the runes have names and the names seem to be translatable. E.g. you have "wealth," "iron," "need," "ice," and so on. When you're translating runes, do the meanings in this sense have any linguistic functions? Or are they just names for the symbols that represent the phonemes and you transliterate it like an alphabet, and those happen to be one letter words? For example in Tibetan the letter "ka" is also the word "ka" which is the word "mouth," but to my knowledge the symbol and that word are unrelated except that the word is spelled that way. You might use it for a pun, but "ka" in the kakhaga does not mean "mouth," it's just a letter, and that letter happens to mean "mouth." Same as nobody would say "I" in the alphabet means the pronoun.

The names were in all likelihood used to teach them to others, as all runic names include the pronunciation of the letter itself. I would think (and I'm guessing, again) that the rune names have no intrinsic meaning aside from having the name of a common object, god or concept as a mnemonic enhancer.

quote:

Do the runes' names serve some function in historical magic application that we know of? Or is that also a modern thing?

That we know of, no, I don't think so. However, the runic poems connected to the alphabets are wonderfully evocative, and jogs the mind into fanciful conjecture. I like to think they have been, but I have no authoritative source. Even Einar Selvik who is a bona fide weird rune wizard told me that he only had the rune poems, sagas and his UPG to go on.

Tias fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Mar 11, 2020

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


It was a monster that lives in a lake, and is a sexpest to women who swim alone. Something about red flowers used as bait to lure women to him.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Grimey Drawer

BattyKiara posted:

It was a monster that lives in a lake, and is a sexpest to women who swim alone. Something about red flowers used as bait to lure women to him.

This?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neck_(water_spirit)

Known as nøkker in Danish, they were said to lure people with music (and sometimes sexual attraction), and cause them to drown.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Definitely sounds like Nøkken, but could also be another kind of land wight or faerie. Do you know what part of Scandinavia the story originates from?

E: interestingly enough, waterlily is known as 'Nøkke Rose' in some parts of Denmark, but 'nøkke' is also our translation for 'Nymph', the water dwelling greek creatures, which i believe is where the name comes from - but there are water lilies with red flowers to be sure.

Tias fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Mar 11, 2020

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


Nøkken sounds about right. Could have sworn the name sounded something like Bron-goob, but that's probably just me mixing stuff up. Thanks

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Brønd-gubbe would be "well-man" in Norwegian?

There's a folkmetal/blackmetal song of that name from 2006, probably of older provenance? It's about a dude who drinks a lot, drowns in a well and lives with the man who is now there. I don't have time to dig into it at present, but the lyrics are originally a folk tune and probably represents a local myth

Give it a listen, even if you don't speak norwegian it's pretty evocative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w6kCW2FR8Y

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


Nice song, Tias!

I am actually trying to learn Norwegian. Aka, how can a country with 5 million people spawn 8 million dialects?

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






BattyKiara posted:

Aka, how can a country with 5 million people spawn 8 million dialects?

Lots of isolated places.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Yeah, Scandinavia is, uh, polarised

Case in point, a whole new runic alphabet was discovered in the recent path because it was used by a bunch of Swedes so isolated no one even bothered to talk to them to find out about their language use.

Sooo, Scandinavia is more or less on lockdown because of the COVID-19 virus, which is causing troubles for school and my private life, but if anyone requests one of the subjects in the OP I'd be happy to put it up eventually. Who doesn't want to hear about the time a horse banged Loki?

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Tias posted:

Yeah, Scandinavia is, uh, polarised


Having a variety of dialects is also a conscious choice. In 1878 for example a law was ratified that said that all education had to be done in the students dialects. If a teacher didn't speak the dialect of the students he, by law, had to learn it.

PharmerBoy
Jul 21, 2008


Any good resources for the heathen-curious outside of popping in here and asking questions?

I'm not geographically close to any groups, so I'm looking for books of similar. I've seen some names tossed around (Diane Paxson, Eric Wodening), but I'm not even sure how to evaluate what I'm looking at for basic resources.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

PharmerBoy posted:

Any good resources for the heathen-curious outside of popping in here and asking questions?

I'm not geographically close to any groups, so I'm looking for books of similar. I've seen some names tossed around (Diane Paxson, Eric Wodening), but I'm not even sure how to evaluate what I'm looking at for basic resources.

If you are in North America the best resources as far as books go are Diana Paxsons Essential Asatru and Patricia Lafayllves Practical Heathens Guide to Asatru. Pretty much everything else is either going to be racist trash or super duper new agey. I liked Practical heathen. It's short and straight forward. As far as organization go there is TAC and The Troth. I don't have much experience with TAC but a friend of mine is the ambassador for Montana and they have a good onboarding process even if their ...theology(?) Is a bit questionable. The Troth is where I'm at but their onboarding is not well handled. I was a member for a year until I realized that there was a mailing list I was supposed to be a member of. The mailing list is still their main form of communication and they have been less than receptive to suggestions that maybe it's ok to leave the 20th century. They also have a supposed quarterly magazine but the winter issue is something like 6 months late at this point so I wouldn't even consider it a thing.

Hope that's helpful.

PharmerBoy
Jul 21, 2008


Looks helpful, good to get feedback on sources. I'm slammed at work right now (healthcare, we're over capacity), so it'll be a few days before I can really dig in.

On the evaluation side though, how about a more disturbing issue: identifying nazis. Specifically, came across this person in a group I was looking through. No posts by this person, only their profile pic to go on, but drat if I don't get nazi vibes off it.

As far as an insider's perspective, same evaluation? Anything to look for to differentiate appropriated use vs. decent folk?

Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE



PharmerBoy posted:

Looks helpful, good to get feedback on sources. I'm slammed at work right now (healthcare, we're over capacity), so it'll be a few days before I can really dig in.

On the evaluation side though, how about a more disturbing issue: identifying nazis. Specifically, came across this person in a group I was looking through. No posts by this person, only their profile pic to go on, but drat if I don't get nazi vibes off it.

As far as an insider's perspective, same evaluation? Anything to look for to differentiate appropriated use vs. decent folk?

One of dude's friends has "WHITE PRIDE WORLD WIDE" as his profile picture. If he's not a nazi, he's definitely comfortable with them.

PharmerBoy
Jul 21, 2008


Yeah, friends list didn't pop up on the original view I had. Brought it up in the group and it did not go well.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Grimey Drawer

Uh yeah, that's literally a nazi version of an Odal/Othala rune, the version with the little feet or serifs was used by an SS regiment and is used by nazi scum to this day. In addition to that, there is a black sun, which was designed for/by Heinrich Himmler for his nazi LARP castle. And of course it's all in a modified version of the WWII German kriegsflagge.

It pretty much screams "nazi!"

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


PharmerBoy posted:

Yeah, friends list didn't pop up on the original view I had. Brought it up in the group and it did not go well.

Then you basically did your best. There's no reason to alienate potential allies, but going 'uhh you guys are aware that A) that's a nazi symbol and B) this guy uses it while a part of your group and C) is that okay because I don't think it is' is the absolute minimum I would ask of those I do religious work with.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Jǫtnar / Jotunn / Frost Giants - Evil demons or part of the family?

The beings known as jǫtnar are an often mentioned part of norse mythology, and when we hear about them in the modern parlance, they often look like clear-cut 'bad guys' because of their opposition to the aesir and vanir. But, as we shall see below, they're often cozy with the gods, and some of the gods we recognize as aesir and vanir are actual fifty or even a hundred percent jotnar by blood!

At the creation of the world, these beings were shed from the world-being Ymirs body, in some kind of asexual reproduction. They survived his dismemberment by Odin, Vile and Ve by surfing the rivers made by his blood. The jǫtnar live in Jotunheimm, one of the nine worlds. In later scandinavian folklore, a greater ambiguity surrounded them, in no small part because of christians likening them to devils, and they became terrifying entities who often worked against humans.

The name Jotunn comes from the proto-germanic *etunaz and means "devourer". The Old English eóten is a cognate (it means the same thing and comes from the same Proto-Germanic word). Þurs, or Thurse, another name for giant-like creatures, is derived from the Proto-Germanic *þurisaz and means something like “powerful and injurious one” with a secondary connotation of “thorn-like.” The Old English ðyrs and Old High German duris are cognates.

If we look at the inside/outside divide often applied in heathenry, Jǫtnar are 100% 'outside the fence'. They represent untamed nature, the anti-thesis of safety, civilization and formal culture - and this isn't the same as evil, but they do act against the efforts of heathens to codify, understand and protect the land. The devourers constantly try to pull the world back to it's state of primordial chaos, and the gods try to pull up the plane instead. Still, what about the gods?

Well, Odin is half Jotunn, on his mothers side - and Thor, the chaos-destroyer and slayer of Jotunn? 75%. In principle, Jotunn, like Aesir and Vanir, is often a title conferred through kinship, rather than a specific measurement of blood or parentage. When the full-blood Jotunn Skaði marries the powerful vane Njord, she becomes an óss (sing. of aesir). In reality, we don't know the origins of deities like Odin and Thor, central and important deities though they be in the aesir pantheon - and their latest recorded iteration are as the enemies of the jǫtnar and lords of the aesir, so that's what we're going with.

Jotunnheim (also known as "Udgård" or "outside the clearing", signifying their status as devourers) is the home of the Jǫtnar. It is where they menace Asgård from, separated from this realm by the river Ilfing. In here lies Mimir's well, where Odin placed his eye to gain wisdom, and the gods have gone there on many adventures. For an abridged list, check the wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunheimr

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Tias posted:

For an abridged list, check the wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunheimr

My favorite will always be Utgards-Loke dunking on the gods.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


He is a master dunker

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks


Good thread, but Tias: you use the word "Lapp" in the first post and it's considered a slur these days by most Sami.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


My bad! I only know one with part saami heritage, and she uses - I think it's more common in Scandinavia to call the area Lapland still. I'll change it!

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006
THE VOLKSWAGEN DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

What does the practice/tradition of Norse Heathenry say about disease and poo poo like the pandemic we're experiencing? Is there any analogous historical situation known of?

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

PT6A posted:

What does the practice/tradition of Norse Heathenry say about disease and poo poo like the pandemic we're experiencing? Is there any analogous historical situation known of?

There has actually been internal discussion in my org about it. On one end the wizards say they might be a thurs (hostile jotun). On the other end the joyless fucks think it shouldn't be a discussion at all. Not sure on the historical side. In my readings thus far it hasn't come up and that might be because the heathens didn't really keep records like the church did. There are charms against "venoms and flying poisons" so I would say it's not unknown.

Divination told me we are on our own and that the social distance was needful. A friend of mine had a chat with one-hand and he told her to suck it up, sacrifice is supposed to hurt.

Not sure if that's any help.

Unrelated, I'm currently pursuing studies with the intention of eventually being clergy. Since this is the religion for nerds the quantity of reading is astounding. If folks are interested I can do a brief write up of each book I've read thus far and each one as I finish. Sort of a review/synopsis.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


I don't think Thurser are hostile as is, they're just another tribe (or possibly another kenning) for jotun.

quote:

Unrelated, I'm currently pursuing studies with the intention of eventually being clergy. Since this is the religion for nerds the quantity of reading is astounding. If folks are interested I can do a brief write up of each book I've read thus far and each one as I finish. Sort of a review/synopsis.

Please do!

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
DESPITE CLAIMING TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGES I CAN'T COMMUNICATE WORTH A DAMN

Bhurak posted:

Divination told me we are on our own and that the social distance was needful. A friend of mine had a chat with one-hand and he told her to suck it up, sacrifice is supposed to hurt.

Could you go into this? Not being lovely, I'm actually interested in what this kind of process it nvolves. I'd really love to know the internal working.

Tias posted:

Jǫtnar / Jotunn / Frost Giants - Evil demons or part of the family?

The beings known as jǫtnar are an often mentioned part of norse mythology, and when we hear about them in the modern parlance, they often look like clear-cut 'bad guys' because of their opposition to the aesir and vanir. But, as we shall see below, they're often cozy with the gods, and some of the gods we recognize as aesir and vanir are actual fifty or even a hundred percent jotnar by blood!

At the creation of the world, these beings were shed from the world-being Ymirs body, in some kind of asexual reproduction. They survived his dismemberment by Odin, Vile and Ve by surfing the rivers made by his blood. The jǫtnar live in Jotunheimm, one of the nine worlds. In later scandinavian folklore, a greater ambiguity surrounded them, in no small part because of christians likening them to devils, and they became terrifying entities who often worked against humans.

The name Jotunn comes from the proto-germanic *etunaz and means "devourer". The Old English eóten is a cognate (it means the same thing and comes from the same Proto-Germanic word). Þurs, or Thurse, another name for giant-like creatures, is derived from the Proto-Germanic *þurisaz and means something like “powerful and injurious one” with a secondary connotation of “thorn-like.” The Old English ðyrs and Old High German duris are cognates.

If we look at the inside/outside divide often applied in heathenry, Jǫtnar are 100% 'outside the fence'. They represent untamed nature, the anti-thesis of safety, civilization and formal culture - and this isn't the same as evil, but they do act against the efforts of heathens to codify, understand and protect the land. The devourers constantly try to pull the world back to it's state of primordial chaos, and the gods try to pull up the plane instead. Still, what about the gods?

Well, Odin is half Jotunn, on his mothers side - and Thor, the chaos-destroyer and slayer of Jotunn? 75%. In principle, Jotunn, like Aesir and Vanir, is often a title conferred through kinship, rather than a specific measurement of blood or parentage. When the full-blood Jotunn Skaði marries the powerful vane Njord, she becomes an óss (sing. of aesir). In reality, we don't know the origins of deities like Odin and Thor, central and important deities though they be in the aesir pantheon - and their latest recorded iteration are as the enemies of the jǫtnar and lords of the aesir, so that's what we're going with.

Jotunnheim (also known as "Udgård" or "outside the clearing", signifying their status as devourers) is the home of the Jǫtnar. It is where they menace Asgård from, separated from this realm by the river Ilfing. In here lies Mimir's well, where Odin placed his eye to gain wisdom, and the gods have gone there on many adventures. For an abridged list, check the wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunheimr

Cool!

Can I get some sources on these etymologies? The English-language sources I have give slightly different but largely parallel answers. (I can hack my way through some Danish if it comes to it, if that matters. Not that I'm looking forward to it, but I'm German and I know some Swedish and Old English and I'm used to just kind of figuring thing out.)

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Tias posted:

I don't think Thurser are hostile as is, they're just another tribe (or possibly another kenning) for jotun.

In our teachings over here and in The Troth, the word is pretty much only used in relation to Surt and his crew. It may be wrong. When I worked at a living history museum we'd often be taught things orally that had been stated at some point in the distant past by someone with some authority and never questioned until someone read a book. As I go through my readings, even this early I'm finding the source of various assertions taught in "Heathenry 101" books and courses. It could also be a difference in language. I speak a bastard pidgin language that's a bit further removed from the lore.

Xiahou Dun posted:

Could you go into this? Not being lovely, I'm actually interested in what this kind of process it nvolves. I'd really love to know the internal working.

In the simplest sense, I ask a question aloud or silent form one in my head and then I pull a rune. Most of the time I'm communicating with Freyr. I am literally using an app. It has no permissions and works just as well in a room without connectivity. Google isn't listening to my poo poo I'm just talking with the RNG. The runes don't matter* just that they can be randomized. They also aren't super duper magical. They are a language with agreed upon meanings that facilitate communication between you and the elder kin. I could probably fashion a divination tool out of my child's alphabet blocks that works just as well. This is where I differ from most folk. I have a reference where the general meanings and readings are but I've never done any formal method or training or courses.

Am I wearing my hammer? Yes? Proceed. I ask a question and pull a rune. Context matters. Did I ask a yes no question? If there is a pointy bit on the rune it usually means thumbs up or down. It gets more complex from there. Ok, you have an answer. Ask the same question in a different way. Still get a similar response? Good. You understand. Or consistently misunderstand in a fashion where they can talk to you. Ask who you are talking to. I've had names spelled out. Which triggered an existential crisis and why I'm not atheist anymore. The bounds of probability became constantly pushed beyond what was reasonable. I shouldn't be able to have a coherent conversation with a RNG that can spell and has a sense of humour.

In the specific case I mentioned one morning I was concerned about affording a possible quarantine so I thought I'd tease him and ask if he was going to make me a lotto winner to which he replied with an inverted Othila. Othila is family, hearth, home, inheritance. So not inheritance but also it being upside down is also sort of saying "No family" or "You are on your own". No lotto for me, guess I can't retire...I then asked "No help at all?". He replied With Isa. Isa is ice and usually means proceed slowly but also can mean "freeze" or in the pidgin we've worked out means "wait" (company that day sent out their pandemic preparedness plan which had provisions for quarantine pay. They didn't follow them but that's a different story.) I then asked if we should to do the social distancing and the reply was Nauthiz or "Need".

I don't know how my friend talks with Tyr. She may cast runes. There are other methods though.

One thing to note is that runes |= heathenry. Lots of heathens practice it but many don't.

*I have a set of runes that I bought 10 years ago at a used bookstore on a lark and they are as dead as this forum is gay. I think it's because they are mass produced as opposed to being hand made with care. The app gets around this because the code was lovingly crafted by a basement troll. I think. I dunno

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
DESPITE CLAIMING TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGES I CAN'T COMMUNICATE WORTH A DAMN

I know that "casting*" I'd be so interested in just talking to you about this process and learning about it just for my own learning if your cool with it.


*Is that the right word? It's what it is as translated in the old poo poo I'm used to reading is, but I don't mean to offend to offend anyone and I know we're talking beyond a language barrier. I mean no offense and would honestly appreciate a more full break down from the brief versions I got in two weeks of undergrad classes.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


Bhurak posted:

In our teachings over here and in The Troth, the word is pretty much only used in relation to Surt and his crew. It may be wrong. When I worked at a living history museum we'd often be taught things orally that had been stated at some point in the distant past by someone with some authority and never questioned until someone read a book. As I go through my readings, even this early I'm finding the source of various assertions taught in "Heathenry 101" books and courses. It could also be a difference in language. I speak a bastard pidgin language that's a bit further removed from the lore.

No biggie - it's seems like a sensible connection to make, and is just another example of winding branches of heathen lore. Most of what I know is going on stuff I've been told by others as well.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Xiahou Dun posted:

I know that "casting*" I'd be so interested in just talking to you about this process and learning about it just for my own learning if your cool with it.


*Is that the right word? It's what it is as translated in the old poo poo I'm used to reading is, but I don't mean to offend to offend anyone and I know we're talking beyond a language barrier. I mean no offense and would honestly appreciate a more full break down from the brief versions I got in two weeks of undergrad classes.

Casting is as good a word as any and as far as I can tell comes from Tacitus "Agricola and Germania" where he talks about casting lots. A quick search found this web page which is not a terrible summary. Ultimately we don't know what was done in pre-christian era because the church and her agents (looking at you St Olaf) did a fairly effective job stamping it out.

The thing to keep in mind is that all of this, from the runes, to the various flavours of neopaganism all came from the 19th century nationalistic search for an ur-identity. Cyrano could probably give you good run down of it, but it spawned things like those photos of the children playing with "real" fairies as well as the protocols of the elders of zion. Some of it was good, most wasn't.

In the case of the runes you have fellows like Guido List claiming an ancestral pipeline to forgotten knowledge that only his family is privy to. In other words, what we call in the biz MUS (made up poo poo). However this MUS is a coherent design that allows communication with agreed upon symbols that have cultural significance to the practitioners. Even to this day there claims by folks that they know the one true way. In my circles the go to book is typically Diana Paxsons "Taking Up The Runes" and a friend was expressing to me internal organizational drama because one of the talking heads in TAC was saying Diana doesn't know anything and her sources which include a dude from Wardruna and I think one from Heilung had taught her the true method which is hilarious on several levels.

Even beyond the pagan beefing a lot of people treat them as holy objects. I was looking at the back of the Hu album a month or two ago and I remarked that writing on the back of the album was faux runes. My friend said "They aren't runes that's a font" so even suggesting that something might be aesthetically runic while not being the runes is unthinkable to some.

I'm not sure if that is anything at all what you wanted. I'm happy to answer questions with the caveat that I am not a wizard and not super read up on the available literature so anything too esoteric will definitely end up in the realm of stuff I think but can't prove. (UPG)

Ataxerxes
Dec 1, 2011

What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?


Tias posted:

Jǫtnar / Jotunn / Frost Giants - Evil demons or part of the family?
The name Jotunn comes from the proto-germanic *etunaz and means "devourer". The Old English eóten is a cognate (it means the same thing and comes from the same Proto-Germanic word). Þurs, or Thurse, another name for giant-like creatures, is derived from the Proto-Germanic *þurisaz and means something like “powerful and injurious one” with a secondary connotation of “thorn-like.” The Old English ðyrs and Old High German duris are cognates.

Turisas is also a being in Finnish pagan folklore, mentioned in 1551 by a priest called Mikael Agricola. He wrote a list of pagan deities worshipped by Finns and mentions Turisas being a god that gives victory in wars. In an another book from 1789 an another writer lists Turisas in Mythologica Fennica, a book about Finnish pagan faith and superstitions. That book is very much full of all sorts of dubious stuff, but very interesting.

peanut
Sep 9, 2007




Frozen 1, Frozen 2. Discuss.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






peanut posted:

Frozen 1, Frozen 2. Discuss.

It's cool to have sami representation in media.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

peanut posted:

Frozen 1, Frozen 2. Discuss.

My child is not yet old enough where I must look the beast in the eye. My time will come.

peanut
Sep 9, 2007




It's good btw

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 7 days!


I actually only saw the start (the same day you asked ) because we decided we'd rather watch Guardians of the Galaxy. The first fifteen minutes or so were great, though! I enjoyed the ice workers song.

Xiahou Dun posted:

I know that "casting*" I'd be so interested in just talking to you about this process and learning about it just for my own learning if your cool with it.


*Is that the right word? It's what it is as translated in the old poo poo I'm used to reading is, but I don't mean to offend to offend anyone and I know we're talking beyond a language barrier. I mean no offense and would honestly appreciate a more full break down from the brief versions I got in two weeks of undergrad classes.

I don't cast. As said, we don't really know if this ever happened. I will say a lot of folks use rune sets to divine with, though - and I don't have any beef with it, because once again for prince Knud: We're a reconstructionist religion, and we're all doing something new with something very old. What that is, can be anything really, and there's no thing more right than another - though most of us opt to fight racism, sexism and homophobia, because the faith is or should be for everyone.

Tias fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Apr 4, 2020

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Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Bhurak posted:

My child is not yet old enough where I must look the beast in the eye. My time will come.
You're getting off easy. I work with little kids and have lived this nightmare for seven years now.

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