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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Alhazred posted:

You're getting off easy. I work with little kids and have lived this nightmare for seven years now.

You sound like a person who really needs to let it go.

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Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Cyrano4747 posted:

You sound like a person who really needs to let it go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVHJ6OwTYWc

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Cyrano4747 posted:

You sound like a person who really needs to let it go.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


peanut posted:

Frozen 1, Frozen 2. Discuss.

Jackson Crawford consulted on Frozen 1 but not Frozen 2 so 1 is the superior source of heathen content.

Source: I took his Norse Mythology class and he told us about some of the stuff he contributed to the movie (most of it was cut)

peanut
Sep 9, 2007




Frozen 2 is more heathen, probably

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

My plan with the literature review is to chart my journey of readings as a heathen and as someone who plans on becoming clergy.  The order of writings will be in the order in which I read them. Please ask questions, add comments, whatever you want.  This is as much an expose on the available literature as an opportunity for me to crystalize my thoughts and get challenged on ideas.

The first one on the block is the first edition of Our Troth.  Our Troth is the handbook/reference for The Troth.  The Troth is one of the inclusive asatru orgs in North America.  The first edition was published in 1993 and is very indicative of the era and has left it's mark even to this day.  I did a quick search and the website I read ihas been scrubbed, so I can't link it here but I've seen in on :files: so if the interest piques you...  I wouldn't unless you enjoy delving into the evolution of the religion.

The book itself is a collection of essays and reports authored by Kveldulfr Gundarsson(Stephen Grundy) as well as other members of organization at the time.  I have not read a print edition however the text however provided the HTML version is a faithful reproduction, then it is light on citations.  This would be consistant with the other writings of Gundarssons that I have read.  It was a good start and for me at the time, the perfect introduction as I could read it on my phone while conducting testing at work.  The information is mostly the same information you will find in any '101' book with an extra new age nougat filling to chew on. 

Ultimately it's the nougat that is the major issue with this book.  Many of the heavy hitters of that era are from california or spent a great deal of time there so this book reeks of the baby boomers too young to have gone to woodstock but not to have absorbed the self importance and new age fuckery.  Whole chapters dedicated to "this is a nature religion maaaaan".  Which it is, sort of but not in the early 90's captain planet environmentalism way.  Some urban PHD talking poo poo about the forestry industry orings hollow when his income relies on selling Llewellyn books to publish. 

When reading this book it's important to keep the new age in mind and also the Wicca.  Much of the published early rituals used by heathens in the 80's and 90's were just renamed wiccan rituals.  The so called hammer rite is just a renamed calling of the quarters.  Everything must come from something but the book suffers from these
inheritances due to there being a big focus on doing magic or magic adjacent ritual.  I have a hard time telling if that's from the organizational culture at the time or just a reflection of Gundarssons flavour of heathenry.  In other resources written by him that I will cover at a later date these themes continue.  I can say that currently the most vocal members of the organization are mostly what I affectionately refer to as wizards.  They believe in magic and do rituals to make things happen.  There was even a recent scandal/drama bomb betwix a number of the big swinging dicks over "witch wars".  Likely it is the culture.  I'd be curious to find out if the magical beliefs carry over onto the volkish side.

As with anything Heathen it's a mixed bag.  The book came at the right time in my life however even at the time I found parts questionable.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


Speaking of The Troth, the thing that first brought them to my attention was Declaration 127 which calls out racism, homophobia and all other types of bigotry in the community as a whole and the Asatru Folk Assembly in particular.

I'll carry a decent amount of respect for any individual or group willing to be explicit in their inclusiveness.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Declaration 127 is a great thing, my blótlaug and one other here in Denmark has already signed to it. Unfortunately our main religious organization for heathens are AFA stans and so hates antiracism

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Rumours are that it's being updated/resigned in order to expand the... coverage? It was felt that it was too AFA specific.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


What do y’all think of thelongship.net as an introduction to practice?

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


I don't immediately hate it?

Few nits:

It mentions that all heathens hold wyrd and orlæg (sp?) is central to their practice. I, a devout practicioner, have never heard of orlæg and am not sure everyone cares about wyrd. This has a logical explanation: Both concepts are mostly documented in anglo-saxon heathenry, the evolved heathenry of saxons living together with or under the yoke of heathen norsemen in the Danelaw. A Danish heathen like myself might or might not agree that all my actions and my fate is determined in advance by the the web of wyrd, but I could also think my life is determined by my actions in accordance with the wishes of gods and spirits (it's the last one). U.S. heathenry is very influenced by anglo-saxon sources, you'll very often come across heathens claiming concepts like "frith" and "troth" are extremely important, while euro heathens wouldn't care about them at all.

The outlay of nine worlds is very true to current edda-based interpretation, but again, no two heathens would agree on whether these worlds exist or in what shape. Some with an animist/shaman background like myself lean towards "they -might- but are probably alternate dimensions/consciousness states", while others will say they somehow orbit Midgard (where we are), and may or may not be detectable.

On Orlæg:

thelongship.net posted:

All of the factors that contribute to one’s orlæg have one thing in common: they are chosen for the person before birth or shortly after. Some factors are even the result of decisions made many generations ago, such as immigration or religious conversion. Regardless, a person cannot change their orlæg, nor can they deny the orlæg given to them.

Many heathens would agree that family curses and the actions of ancestors or the influence of spirits and undead could gently caress up a present life (many, but far from all, are into reincarnation), but by no means all or even the majority. Many are fundamentally positive in their religious psychology and don't think bad things happen to good heathens.

This is very endearing though, and suggests we're not dealing with a nazitru page:

quote:

in fact, it is not uncommon for some of these circumstances to change, such as religion or economic status. Additionally, just because a person starts out with a certain circumstance does not make it true, such as in the case of gender, which is chosen for a newborn by a medical professional based on observed factors.


Reciprocity looks good, and the theism page is allright, except for the fact that heathen is not necessarily either theist nor polytheist. There are heathens who consider the gods Jungian archetypes to emulate while being agnostics, and others who only really consider the existance of the god they're devoted to, and all are equally valid.


tl;dr: Heathenry takes many different forms, and while thelongship.net's views on cosmology, practice and gods represent a sizable chunk of heathens worldwide, there are those who believe something else entirely, and all are equally 'heathen' as we have no unified hierarchy and theology.

Tias fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 21, 2020

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Internet Wizard posted:

What do y’all think of thelongship.net as an introduction to practice?

I remember this website. I came across it after I finished the first Our Troth back in 2018. I went back to see how it had changed and it hadn't. It looks like it was the project of a discord community. The lack of updates tells me that either the community fractured as they do, or the characteristic flakiness kicked in and they got bored with it and failed to follow through.

As far as a resource goes it isn't bad. The focus on a hearth cult is different. The ritual format seems off to me. I want to say it is ADF inspired but I don't actually know. Not sure if there is a gatekeeper deity. If there is it's either Thor or Heimdall. Thor is the Hallower and Heimdall is busy. Neither of them open up a line of communication. The basic ritual steps are : gather, make sacred, address, offer, close. The specifics are largely up to the practitioner. Mine tend to be super informal unless it is a major holiday then I might go semi formal. The big takeaway from that section is do what works for you.

The reading list is a bit odd. I got a semi when I saw Marcel Mauss there but it immediately deflated when I saw that they listed it as intermediate and the eddas as advanced.

The heathens in profile is definitely a good resource as it gives you an idea of the various flavours of weirdos you'll meet in the community. They are missing a few of the archetypical heathens but those become known quickly.

It's a good start IMO.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Who is Marcel Mauss and should we care about him?

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Tias posted:

Who is Marcel Mauss and should we care about him?

He was a French sociologist who wrote about what was, in his time, called "primitive socieities". He wrote two things that tend to get a bunch of attention..."The Gift", which was about gift-economies and the social and communal aspects of gift giving, and "A General Theory of Magic", which looked at the way different societies looked at magic, and the social understanding of magic, religion and ritual as a way to reinforce social cohesion.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

The Gift is an anthropological look at the nature of reciprocity through the ethnographic studies of West Coast practices of potlatch. He then expands it out to humanity in general. When dealing with humanity there are very very few true universals but gift exchange is one of them.

Should you care? Hard to say. It doesn't add much of anything to the practices. I was surprised to see it listed as a reading to read before the eddas since the eddas are sort of the beginning of everything for most and an academic study of "every gift demands a gift", which is something most everyone understands at a gut level, isnt.

I like it. It's considered one of the great anthropolology books for a reason and it's a short read but it is irrelevant to the religion IMO.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


People without even a passing understanding of the eddas and sagas is sadly pretty common from what I've seen, at least in the States. Which is just baffling, because why even use the names of those gods if you don't know who the names belong to.

abske_fides
Apr 20, 2010


Any good sources in either Danish or Norwegian about modern heathenry? So much stuff in English I see is really quite ugh.... colourful to put it that way.

And thanks for the thread this is something I've been curious about for a very long time.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


religion.dk har lavet et okay overblik, med links til interviews foretaget af kristeligt dagblad - men bemærk at de vist mest har talt med Forn Sidr:

https://www.religion.dk/asatro#2-subheading

abske_fides
Apr 20, 2010


Tias posted:

religion.dk har lavet et okay overblik, med links til interviews foretaget af kristeligt dagblad - men bemærk at de vist mest har talt med Forn Sidr:

https://www.religion.dk/asatro#2-subheading

Takk for linken. Any other nordic books that you'd recommend in that sense? I of course have Snorre Sagas with a new translation that's actually excellent, and some other books both in Norwegian and Enlighs as well. Recently got Den Svarte Vikingen which sounded interesting.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Tias posted:

religion.dk har lavet et okay overblik, med links til interviews foretaget af kristeligt dagblad - men bemærk at de vist mest har talt med Forn Sidr:

https://www.religion.dk/asatro#2-subheading

Off topic but man as someone who can read both English and German wandering across danish out of nowhere before I’ve had my coffee made my brain skip a few cycles.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Lol, sorry - asking for sources in Danish I assumed they read it

abske_fides posted:

Takk for linken. Any other nordic books that you'd recommend in that sense? I of course have Snorre Sagas with a new translation that's actually excellent, and some other books both in Norwegian and Enlighs as well. Recently got Den Svarte Vikingen which sounded interesting.

Just get a good translation of the elder Edda in your native tongue and you're good to go, IMHO. I would also recommend looking into stuff by Rune Hjarnø, Maria Kvilhaug, and if you can deal with the hokey cowboy stuff and English, Jackson Crawford. In spite of his jive kind of gimmick, Crawford is one of the most knowledgable saga and norse mythology experts alive today.

Tias fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 23, 2020

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Lol no worries just more a funny observation about my brain trying really hard to parse that a thing it should recognize and then falling over.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

abske_fides posted:

Any good sources in either Danish or Norwegian about modern heathenry? So much stuff in English I see is really quite ugh.... colourful to put it that way.

And thanks for the thread this is something I've been curious about for a very long time.

A good rule of thumb for the source material in English is that if the author's name sounds grandiose or ridiculous there is likely a great deal of new age fuckery within. Or golden dawn. If their name has a part in quotes they are still a wizard but it's going to be slightly less agregious.

abske_fides
Apr 20, 2010


Bhurak posted:

A good rule of thumb for the source material in English is that if the author's name sounds grandiose or ridiculous there is likely a great deal of new age fuckery within. Or golden dawn. If their name has a part in quotes they are still a wizard but it's going to be slightly less agregious.

Hence why I asked in Norwegian or Danish hehe. Hokey new age stuff seems more common in English than in the Scandinavian languages it seems, but I might be mistaken.

A few months back I got the elder Edda in nynorsk which I'll probably read at some point in may.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



abske_fides posted:

Hence why I asked in Norwegian or Danish hehe. Hokey new age stuff seems more common in English than in the Scandinavian languages it seems, but I might be mistaken.

A few months back I got the elder Edda in nynorsk which I'll probably read at some point in may.

I don't really have a good mental framework for this built yet, and this is going to sound dismissive, but I think it tl;dr's down to the vast majority of the US being 4th, 5th and more generation descendants of immigrants who have a notion that there is another cultural background they "should" belong to but have no link to it. Some of them end up romanticizing this, and some of those end up getting into new age poo poo that can come off as anywhere between patronizing and insulting on through naive if genuine in their enthusiasm. You see it with people getting into Celtic stuff, you see it with people finding that they're 1/128th Native, you see it with norse/nordic pagan stuff, and you also see it with a lot of adopted cultural things like the people who go a little off the deep end on South Asian spirituality.

I don't want to disparage or minimize what any of those people are doing and I"m sure as poo poo not trying to pass judgement on it. It's just that when you look at how they approach it and the people who are still rooted in the cultural context that these beliefs emerge from (as in living in it from day to day) there are some pretty noticeable differences.

Note that I'm none of these things so this is a purely outsider's perspective and just from the hip musings.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

You aren't wrong. At the museum I worked at there was a yearly event called highland gathering. Basically a bunch of people who had a Scotsman as an ancestor put on their prettiest dress grab their bagpipes and all 700 of them play Scotland the brave together. The one year the guest of honor was a real Scottish person and I almost died laughing.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Just today some lady from Wisconsin friended me on facebook because she liked what I had to say about Scandinavian drone instruments

Anyway, this type of infatuation is huge with US and to some degree UK pagans. This unfortunately also means they're easily duped by the racist and fascist currents within heathenry because these focus so much on blood relations.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Bhurak posted:

You aren't wrong. At the museum I worked at there was a yearly event called highland gathering. Basically a bunch of people who had a Scotsman as an ancestor put on their prettiest dress grab their bagpipes and all 700 of them play Scotland the brave together. The one year the guest of honor was a real Scottish person and I almost died laughing.

I've spent a good chunk of time outside of the US only once have I pretended to not be an American. Every other time I've owned it and been willing to talk about whatever crazy US poo poo they wanted to discuss, up to and including being in Germany on the day we invaded Iraq.

Except the week I spent in Dublin. Oh my god.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


I'm fourth-generation Norwegian-American on my dad's side (even have the same name as my great-grandfather and grew up in the same town he first homesteaded in) and I can confirm that having no connection to contemporary American christianity was what started me down the road to finding Heathenism.

It helps that the sagas are incredible stories I've loved my entire life and that one of the gods is also a disabled veteran (Tyr, kinda) and another is a champion of the working man and loves drinking and fighting (Thor).

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Those are valid, cool and good interpretations, and you don't have to subscribe to any particular sect or interpretation of heathenry for those gods to help you in your life. Hail Tyr, hail Thor!

E: And yeah, Thor is a good example of the aesir having the same flaws and joys as us. While a fighter of chaos, Thor embodies it somewhat as well - as befits a grandson of jótunns and son of the earth!

Tias fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Apr 28, 2020

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Internet Wizard posted:

one of the gods is also a disabled veteran (Tyr, kinda) and another is a champion of the working man and loves drinking and fighting (Thor).



That is a big draw for me.

Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Thor is good. Tyr is also good but doesn't smile. Picture him looking into Odin's eyes unblinking while the wolf bites his hand off.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


*shrug* it's a living

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Tomorrow is Walpurgis Night, which may be known as a christian holiday, but we heathens know that the saint's feast is an attempt to cover older something much more old, powerful and.. naughty.

Originally this was a night where heathen scandinavians raised maypoles, lit huge pyres and found sexual partners, allegedly keeping them until next Walpurgisnacht. An old man from Sweden explains it thusly: "From time to time you heard the distant sound of horns through the noise. They must be heard for the first time on Walpurga's night, and therefore they have been soaked for eight nights. He who grows by the tones of these horns, thrives by them for as long as he lives. Now we hear at our pyres the messengers of spring, proclaim, what no human word can say. It is the innermost of all music, and it leads to the heart of our culture."

Another legend says that ramsons harvested in moonlight with a sickle on this magical night retains enormous power, can cure the sick and bring fortune to the user.

E: and I got two sick rear end sickles for my birthday

Tias fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Apr 30, 2020

Grandmother of Five
May 9, 2008

I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok.



Det var på tide, Tias! Håber det går godt

Had been hoping Tias would make this thread for some time. Stuff I was gonna ask was asked and answered through the thread, I feel. Also, the Valhalla comics rule lol. I feel like I learned more about Norse mythology reading those as a kid than I ever did in school.

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Vel mødt! Hil din hvide Krist og håber alt går godt hos dig og dine elskede

I'm glad everything was answered, otherwise don't hesitate to write a line. I love to tell about our ways, particular in this time where heathenry is on the rise again - it gets into many and weird forms, that's for sure.

Just today a facebooker asked if anyone else worshipped gods from other pantheons, citing her deities apart from the norse ones as "Chaos and Grimoires".

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


Another half remembered story from me: Is there something about squirrels as messengers between humans and gods in Norse myths? Or am I mixing up some half forgotten fairy tale here?

Tias
May 25, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


BattyKiara posted:

Another half remembered story from me: Is there something about squirrels as messengers between humans and gods in Norse myths? Or am I mixing up some half forgotten fairy tale here?

Nope, you're good: The squirrel Ratatosk lives in the world tree Yggdrasil and takes messages along the worlds. He's also a scurrilous little poo poo who likes gossip, so caveat emptor

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


Not that the messages that he carries are from the eagle that sits on top of Yggdrasil, and the dragon Niddhoggr that chews on the roots.

He spends his time running insults back and forth between them

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Bhurak
Nov 12, 2007

Playing music in the key of HIP!


Fun Shoe

Tias posted:


Just today a facebooker asked if anyone else worshipped gods from other pantheons, citing her deities apart from the norse ones as "Chaos and Grimoires".

I lack the context to understand what the reference is here but a pet peeve of mine is it seems a not insignificant number of pagans treat deities like pokeymans and just accumulate and trade them between pantheons or if that doesn't work well enough make them up.

Sitting and thinking about it I think it is the infidelity and frivolousness of the first part that irritate me. They people who gotta catch em all just seem to treat it like a game.

It has zero effect on me beyond eye strain but it's a thing. Probably due to the lack of deep roots and connection to the land for most Anglo North Americans.

I won't even start on the invention of deities...

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