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Bhurak posted:This is a bad take because by this logic we need to throw out all the lore. My gothi often points out in literature discussions that until recently "all anyone had were three books." The old timers on this side of the pond, who I often complain about were working with the best they had at the time. We are at a good time right now because the amount of literature is exploding. I remember reading something at the beginning of the year that some never before found and translated batch of old lore was currently being translated and due to be out soon. Of course I'm a bad heathen and I can't remember what it was and when it was supposed to be out. I think it was being put into norwegian first. He's not saying the lore is problematic, he's saying the ahistorical false portrayal that Grønbech espoused specifically appealed to the Third Reich, and that it's problematic that that ahistorical and unsupported portrayal also appeals to modern American (folkish) Heathens. The extant historic lore actually runs counter to that interpretation, but does not have the same appeal to the more negative parts of the community. I'd also disagree with your portrayal of him saying his in-group is good and those outside it are bad, because it's exactly that mindset he's speaking out against in this article. Tias posted:Thanks for your perspective, honestly. US heathen politics are completely incomprehensible from the outside, and it helps a lot getting several viewpoints. The simple fact that they have to use language that didn't exist at the time to describe a concept is pretty conclusive that the concept also did not exist at the time.
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Sep 18, 2020 17:37
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Internet Wizard posted:He's not saying the lore is problematic, he's saying the ahistorical false portrayal that Grønbech espoused specifically appealed to the Third Reich, and that it's problematic that that ahistorical and unsupported portrayal also appeals to modern American (folkish) Heathens. The extant historic lore actually runs counter to that interpretation, but does not have the same appeal to the more negative parts of the community. I had a whole thing typed out but I'm pretty unplugged these days and I will likely continue to be. There were about three points in the piece that I could find and only one of them was the unhistorical origin of inner yard/outer yard . And the style was him talking down from a place of moral superiority. But again, I am pretty unplugged now so I just came in without context and maybe that's normal discourse and I never noticed before. Ultimately we can disagree because my personal practice doesn't impact yours and neither of us like the folkish elements. Hit me up on the discord if you want. I'll be around there periodically.
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Sep 18, 2020 19:32
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Internet Wizard posted:The simple fact that they have to use language that didn't exist at the time to describe a concept is pretty conclusive that the concept also did not exist at the time. That does lead to a question Tias might have a good answer to. How complete is the known lexicon of old Norse?
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Sep 22, 2020 05:18
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Cool thread. I'm interested in what the big annual celebrations look like for modern heathens. From a quick look on Wikipedia it seems as though there's a fair bit of variety in dates and festivals, but I guess at least most people celebrate something in the winter and around midsummer. I live in Norway where the broadly celebrated Christian/secular Jul incorporates a lot of pre-Christian traditions, and I think eating good food, getting together with loved ones and giving gifts are pretty much universal to celebrations in all cultures. Are there any important rituals or traditions that you have that might be less familiar, either reconstructed or more recently invented? This isn't especially to do with heathenry, but a celebration unique to extreme latitudes that maybe you'll find interesting: when I lived in the far north people got together to celebrate the first sunrise of the year, in late January. It was not really religious or formalised, at least among people I knew, but you'd get together with friends somewhere outdoors where you could watch the sun rise and maybe have some music and food together, perhaps with a little fire in the snow. The sun is only above the horizon for 15 or 20 minutes so you can easily watch it come up and go back down together. Surprisingly moving after a couple months of polar night.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:30
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big scary monsters posted:Cool thread. I'm interested in what the big annual celebrations look like for modern heathens. From a quick look on Wikipedia it seems as though there's a fair bit of variety in dates and festivals, but I guess at least most people celebrate something in the winter and around midsummer. I live in Norway where the broadly celebrated Christian/secular Jul incorporates a lot of pre-Christian traditions, and I think eating good food, getting together with loved ones and giving gifts are pretty much universal to celebrations in all cultures. Are there any important rituals or traditions that you have that might be less familiar, either reconstructed or more recently invented? Glad you like our little heathen niche of the internet! Well, in Denmark we embrace the heathen roots of modern celebrations, so on the solstice leading up to Jul (normally the 20-21st of December I think) we make sacrifice to the gods (including Odin in his aspect as "Jólnar", the keeper of Jul!). Midsummer is a big deal as well, where we raise a Maj-pole like in Sweden, and dedicate it to the fertility gods of the Vanir (Frej and Freja, among others). Of the rarer celebrations, hmm.. We'll have a memorial blót in late fall, which is a sombre affair focusing on deceased friends and family, but which can be surprisingly jubilant and hearthy, depending on how rough a year it's been in that regard. Another which may not be immediately obvious is the harvest blót, where we thank the gods for the bounty of the earth, it is in the harvest period and we celebrated it in my group last saturday. Some heathen/pagan groups, particularly in the US, celebrate some of the wiccan celebrations (Ostara, Mabon, Beltaine etc.) whose dates and themes were probably mirrored in the Scandinavian countries as well. quote:This isn't especially to do with heathenry, but a celebration unique to extreme latitudes that maybe you'll find interesting: when I lived in the far north people got together to celebrate the first sunrise of the year, in late January. It was not really religious or formalised, at least among people I knew, but you'd get together with friends somewhere outdoors where you could watch the sun rise and maybe have some music and food together, perhaps with a little fire in the snow. The sun is only above the horizon for 15 or 20 minutes so you can easily watch it come up and go back down together. Surprisingly moving after a couple months of polar night. That's amazing! Norse heathens place special emphasis on the Sun and Moon, and my blót guild has both a full moon celebration and a sunrise blot at various times.
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Sep 27, 2020 16:51
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My brother converted while in the military; his dog tags say heathen on them. When he dies will they literally have to do the burning boat thing? And what's the actual term for it? I'm guessing it's not really called Burning Boat Thing but I could be wrong! Also if it hasn't already been addressed I would like to know about Loki and the horse.
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Oct 1, 2020 01:39
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On the matter of dividing the gods etc I have no time or inclination to do so. I talk to them as I need and as I please without regard to if they're Order or Wild or whatever the poo poo. When your main guy is Odin, the god of both rulers and outlaws, it's a bit silly to get caught up on it as a crucial distinction.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:24
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Astrofig posted:My brother converted while in the military; his dog tags say heathen on them. When he dies will they literally have to do the burning boat thing? And what's the actual term for it? I'm guessing it's not really called Burning Boat Thing but I could be wrong! Burning ship burials, usually named 'ship burials' or, slangily, 'viking funeral', may not have been an actual or common thing in real history. Heathens are often burned at death, though some prefer burial with memorial stones. Also, I don't know anything about your brother and don't mean to insinuate anything, but honesty commands me to say that conversion in the US military is a big red flag that he may be involved in faux-heathen white supremacy - the primary group proselytizing in the armed forces, is the Asatru Folk Assembly, a racist, MRA organization that discards, or misinterprets, core tenets of actual heathenry. The navy has tried terming it a hate group, and service members who turn to be AFA members usually end up booted for racist propaganda, blackmail, violence etc. On to Loki! In the early days of Valhalla, a craftsman came to visit. He offered to create a citadel around Asgard which could keep out the giants who may attack from any direction. The man claimed he could complete the fortification of Asgard in three seasons, and for payment demanded that the goddess Freyja be his bride and that he receives the sun and the moon also. The gods however thought his choice of payment was steep and negotiated that he would be paid in full, if he completed the wall in just one season and that he receives no help from any man. The man accepted this with the condition that his stallion, Svadilfari, could help. The gods were unsure, but Loki convinced them that even with the help of his horse, the man would not be able to uphold his end of the bargain, so Freyja, and the sun and moon were not at risk at all. And so the man set to work on the first day of winter, yet it was his huge stallion that did all the work, effortlessly hauling huge boulders. The progress of the citadel progressed swiftly, and it was so tall and strong that no enemy would be able to take Asgard. Three days before the winter was over the gods sat down for counsel and discussed how they could avoid giving the man payment. Whilst discussing this the gods began to question who had agreed to the man’s terms in the first place. The consensus was that Loki was to blame. The trickster Loki was demanded to obstruct the craftsman from completing the last part of the citadel so that they would not need to pay him. Loki would face violence and death if not, so he swore oath that he would stop the man and his horse from completing the citadel. Whilst the man was working that evening, a mare appeared from a nearby forest and neighed towards the stallion. The mare was in heat, and the stallion broke away from his work and ran away into the woods, following the other horse. The man was not happy that his stallion had got away. He became enraged when Svadilfan ran with the mare all night and the next day and he could not finish the citadel in time. The gods, noticing the man’s wrath, realised that he was in fact a giant, and they had been well and truly duped. They called for Thor to kill the giant. Thor swung Mjollnir into the giant’s head. The heavy blow killed him instantly, the force sending his body flying to Niflheim, and cast tiny pieces of his skull across the nine realms. It then became clear that it was Loki who had stopped the completion of the citadel. He had disguised himself as the mare to which Svadilfari left the giant to be with, and had become pregnant with the stallion’s foal. Loki later gave birth to a grey, eight-legged horse he called Sleipnir. It was the best horse among gods and men, so Loki gifted him to Odin. tl;dr: Loki messed up again, was forced to turn into a mare to distract a jotunn horse and was apparently banged, giving birth to Sleipnir, Odin's horse. Tias fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 08:22
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So the story is, basically, "The gods sabotage a contract, then kill the guy they screwed over"? Like, I'm trying to figure out how it's the gods who were duped and not the jotunn.
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Oct 1, 2020 11:46
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Loki is an agent of chaos, not evil - he basically advises the gods to take a bargain that will gently caress them over and destroy the order of the divine world and his advice is wrong. Is Loki an agent of the foreign jotunn, already his lover or just a huge dumb prick? We don't know, but he has to make his error right again. Jotunn are inherently, uh, problematic, for lack of a better word. They wish to destroy peace and goodwill among peoples, and the gods wouldn't have made a deal with him if they knew in advance that he was a jotunn - and once they do, all bets are off. Think of it as an ISIS or CIA infiltrator making a deal with you without divulging their identity. The may keep to their bargain, but making it could lead to you and your family getting ganked, so you shouldn't necessarily feel compelled to hold up your end.
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Oct 1, 2020 12:07
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It's not that simple, though? Is it? Loki was a Jotun, and a lot of gods had jotunn as wives or consorts, even Thor himself. And Odin goes to Mimir for wisdom. So the God's relationship to the Jotunn isn't necessarily antagonistic, and the Jotunn aren't wholly destructive. It sort of seems to me, and I admit I dont know a lot about your religion, that not just Loki, but the Jotunn in general are chaotic forces, and sort of represent precivilization. They're almost always isolated, not living in communities, and live in barren or inhospitable places. A lot of their names seem associated with primal forces...fire, ice, wind. Some of them are wise and learned, but it's a kind of natural wisdom, not learning passed down.
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Oct 2, 2020 03:36
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Epicurius posted:It's not that simple, though? Is it? Loki was a Jotun, and a lot of gods had jotunn as wives or consorts, even Thor himself. And Odin goes to Mimir for wisdom. So the God's relationship to the Jotunn isn't necessarily antagonistic, and the Jotunn aren't wholly destructive. All of that is spot on, IMHO. Odin himself is half jotunn, as is Thor (iirc). As I mention in the OP, and probably since, popular ways of explaining the Aesir-Jotunn dichotomy isn't good vs. evil (though a lot of brosatru and christian converts definitely see it that way), but 'inside the gates vs. outside the gates', 'lawful vs. chaotic' or 'civilization vs. untamed creation'. For example, the super duper aesir god Tyr's father is the Jotunn Hymer, who is an able fisherman and goes with Thor on his trip to catch and kill Jormundgandr (the world-serpent) - Hymer is bullied into going, and ably tracks and baits the serpent even though he doesn't want to. However, having the wyrd knowledge that is very common to the jotunn, Hymer quickly realizes that Thor must not succeed. Jormungandr is as much a pillar of the cosmos as Yggdrasil itself, and catching it would destroy the universe as we know it. He cuts the line, enraging Thor who's just all about the glory and success, but it would be prudent to read between the lines: Hymer saved the day thanks to his connection to the primal world.
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Oct 2, 2020 09:48
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Tias posted:All of that is spot on, IMHO. Odin himself is half jotunn, as is Thor (iirc). As I mention in the OP, and probably since, popular ways of explaining the Aesir-Jotunn dichotomy isn't good vs. evil (though a lot of brosatru and christian converts definitely see it that way), but 'inside the gates vs. outside the gates', 'lawful vs. chaotic' or 'civilization vs. untamed creation'. For example, the super duper aesir god Tyr's father is the Jotunn Hymer, who is an able fisherman and goes with Thor on his trip to catch and kill Jormundgandr (the world-serpent) - Hymer is bullied into going, and ably tracks and baits the serpent even though he doesn't want to. I liked Erik Madsen interpretation in his Valhall comic. In that comic Tyr is ashamed of his jotunn heritage and tries to hide it, he also becomes forced to confront Hymer who was abusive to him when he was a kid. It also helps that Madsen is really good at making comics:  
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Oct 2, 2020 19:24
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It is unfortunately true that there are a lot of brosatru scum recruiting people into their white nationalist groups in the US military, but there are some groups that are some anti-folkish groups as well trying to counter that. The Troth is one of the only groups that’s officially recognized as a denomination by the Marine Corps, for example. Also if you die with heathen/troth/asatru as your religion of record you’ll get a regular military burial, and your headstone can have a mjolnir as the religious icon instead of the usual cross/star/crescent. I’m also a fan of the interpretation that Aesir/Jotunn is more a question of affiliation rather than a difference of species/race/etc. Like has been mentioned, most of the Aesir have a jotun parent or spouse.
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Oct 2, 2020 21:41
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Glad to hear the troth is recognized - and to be clear, there is no undisputed way to be a norse heathen, so if someone with the heathen ways in their heart gets roped in by the AFA and dies in uniform, I am happy they can rest under a stone commemorating their faith.Internet Wizard posted:I’m also a fan of the interpretation that Aesir/Jotunn is more a question of affiliation rather than a difference of species/race/etc. Like has been mentioned, most of the Aesir have a jotun parent or spouse. The categories are immensely (and probably deliberately fluid). It's very clear, for example, that your pantheon is a matter of social status, as a lot of jotunn and one or two (iirc) vanir become aesir once they marry an aes.
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Oct 4, 2020 11:10
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https://www.wearethemighty.com/va-tombstone-religions-icons omg most of the Japanese ones are cults  and the christian groups are specific and annoying. get those hammers, please.
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Oct 5, 2020 13:19
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Eh, I have a hard time being annoyed by the specificity of the christian ones. Or any religion really. If someone wants to be buried under any symbol that's their prerogative, whatever form it might take. We just have a lot more people of various christian denominations dying in military service in the US, so you're going to find a lot more of those edge cases where someone doesn't feel that the current crop of symbols they can choose from represents their faith.
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Oct 5, 2020 13:48
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I mean, like, it's not as if Jesus and Odin will go around with a monocle squinting at your stone, right? They have people
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Oct 6, 2020 11:03
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Let's talk a bit about norse myth and sagas, pick one! Hrolf Krakes half-sister is a loving necromancer queen and summons the mother of all armies Hervor is such a badass shield-maiden she acquires a magic sword from her dead dad and curses her line forever In the Ejrbygga saga, we learn of people starting a blood feud over a holy toilet, featuring a zombie ox, a ghost tail and a family succesfully suing a ghost
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Oct 7, 2020 10:16
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One vote for the holy toilet blood feud.
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Oct 7, 2020 11:11
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"What do you mean you will poo poo on the holy ground?" - Eyrbyggja Saga 1: The settlements Eyrbyggja saga, loosely translated to The Saga of the People of Eyri, is one the 'Icelander sagas', detailing the settlement and development of the Icelandic nation. It was written by an anonymous writer, who describes a long-standing feud between Snorri Goði and Arnkel Goði, two strong chieftains within the Norse community that settled in Iceland. In the beginning, we follow Ketil Flatneb ('Flat-Nose') going to Norway, then Thorrolf Most-Beard (etymology unclear, might mean that his beard was perpetually wet with must, a kind of apple cider). Both guys had their issues brought about by the rise of Harald Fairhair, whose christian and statist ambitions drove out a great deal of guys from Iceland, and the struggle against Harald would continue for much of Icelands early history. Thorolf probably got his first name from his great devotion to Thor, and his first act upon getting to iceland was throwing out the staves that had made up his temple back in Norway, and using their flow to divide where he should settle. The mountain he settled was called Thorsness, and was considered so holy that no murder should take place, and also no one could piss or poo poo on it - to that end a small island was set aside with a toilet on, called Drittsker, which in some editions have charitably been translated into Dirt-Skerry, though I prefer the more accurate translation of poo poo Rock. Thorolf eventually kicked the bucket, leaving his son Thorstein Cod-Biter in charge. Enter the Kiallak-kin, sons of Kiallak the Old, another oldtimer settler of Iceland - they were proud men who didn't care for the Biornlings (Thorstein and his ancestors) hallowing of their grounds and the associated no-kill/poop rules. They show up, and declare haughtily that they'll poo poo on the rock if they want to, setting the stage for the battle of Thorsness Thing  To be continued! Tias fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 13:50
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Oct 8, 2020 01:13
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Eyrbyggja Saga 2, poop harder: The Battle of Thorsness Thing and the truce that ensues I will start out with the amazing passages that herald the battle: the saga posted:At that time so great was the pride of the kin of Kiallak, that they thought themselves before all other men in that countryside; and so many were the kinsmen of Biorn that there was no kindred so mighty in all Broadfirth. tl;dr: Asgeir and Thorgrim of the Kiallaksons show up, decide the time of Thorsness is over, and announce their intent to poo poo on the holy fjell instead of the designated holy toilet area, poo poo Rock. Thorstein Cod-Biter, understandably miffed that his inheritance and hallowed ground of his father is going to be defiled, summons kin and allies and says they must be kept from doing their business on the helgafjell at swords end. These include various bit players and semi-important guys from the prelude like Thorgeir the son of Geirrod of Ere, and the Swanfirthers Thorfin and Thorbrand his son, Thorolf Halt- foot, and many other thingmen and friends of Thorstein. In the evening, when the Kiallakings were 'full of meat', they were let on their way to the ness, but when they didn't take the off-road to poo poo Rock, Thorstein and his men followed them, whooping taunts and brandishing weapons. A fierce battle ensued, and men from a third party try to separate them, but don't succeed. They eventually part, no poops dropped, with numerous dead on either side. The Kiallakings take to sea, and both sides swear that a feud is on. After a fashion, the warring parties are brought together by Thord the Yeller, a reknowned law-speaker who is kin to the Kiallakings but ally of Cod-Biter as well. The close of the matter was that Thord should make it up, on such terms that whereas the Kiallekings demanded never go on poo poo Rock, Thorstein claimed that they should not go on the helgafjell. Much is made about which of the fallen men are "unhallowed", which is kind of an important category because it both denies them a peaceful afterlife and establishes legal guilt. The Kiallakings accused the Thorsnessings for attacking first, and they in turn accused the others of breaking a holy stricture against making GBS threads on the holy ground. This wasn't really an easy case, but Thord ruled on it: No man-debt should be paid for anyone who had died, and furthermore the land on which the blood had been spilled was now no holier than any other. To appease Cod-biter and his people, he declared that it know fell to the Kiallakings to pay upkeep on the temple on the mount, and to pay temple taxes, aided by the other thingsmen in the area. Furthermore, Thorgrim Kiallakson should aid Cod-Biter in any lawsuits brought against him henceforth. Some further manuevering takes place at this point that is not too relevant to the plot, but it bears note that Thord gives Thorgrim his kinswomen as wife, and having the responsiblities of upkeeping temple he is now known as Thorgrim the priest, and his temple became one of the holiest, though the saga makes a note of the fact that you could still relieve yourself on it. Next time: Supernatural fuckery galore!
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Oct 8, 2020 09:52
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I'm really appreciating you taking the time for these writeups. Semi-related question: does anybody have any recommendations for English translations of sagas? I've got copies of the Eddas and the the Volsungsaga, but nothing for the other semi-historical and/or mythical ones.
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Oct 8, 2020 22:03
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No problem! Hope to have part 3 up today. The go-to, I believe, is the Penguin editions. I'm pretty sure Saga Thing can point you in the right direction - and go listen to their rendition of Eyrbyggja saga if you haven't, it's hilarious!
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Oct 9, 2020 06:17
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How about a translation recommendation for the Hildebrandslied?
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Oct 9, 2020 11:14
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Eyrbyggja pt 3 - Cod-biter bites it, Thorolf Twistfoot terrorizes the hood while undead A shepherd cruising west of Thorsness sees the helgafjell mountain open, and witnesses a party scene in which Thorstein Cod-Biter sits by the high seat with his father, feasting and drinking. This is a pretty no-bones guarantee that whomever is seen hanging with their ancestors is going to die, and sure enough, Thorstein is soon confirmed to have bitten his last cod, drowning while fishing west of the fjell. Here follows two chapters that in tolkienesque fashion lays out the extended ancestry of two prime players in the saga, Arnkel and Snorri Goði. After that three that deals with legal fuckery they get into, but as this read-through focuses on the more modernly incongrous parts of the saga, we'll jump straight to the first magic event! Thorbjorns son Gunnlaug has some dealings with Geirrid, daughter of Thorgunna Witch-face, which you know cannot end well. A while later, he is discovered lying outside, first appearing to be suffering from exposure, being black and blue arond the shoulders, but also his flesh is falling off the bones and since he rejected Geirrid earlier most agree that she has 'ridden him', which is the black magic equivalent of rape. The gothis are not deemed fit to judge since both are family to Geirrid, but a skillful witness oath by Arnkel (Geirrids brother) makes certain she is found innocent, and shame is heaped on Thorbjorn and Snorri fo accusing her. Here follows many more tales of more legal fuckery (storms make it impossible for the Thorgrimssons to summon their kinsmen, giving the Kiallakings the ability to pack the thing court), and then a disclaimer: I will now jump through twenty or so chapters which are normally considered the primary plot of the saga, the blood-feuds between Arnkel, Vigfus, Snorri Goði, so as to get to the parts that are batshit insane for the modern reader: Arnkels dad, Thorolf Twist-Foot, was injured in a duel once and has become the bitterest, most quarrelsome fucker on the island since then (he is thought to have been well on his way even before). At one point he is gipped in a deal involving Snorri Goði and Arnkel, and is so pissed off that he sits down in his high seat without eating dinner, and the next day he is dead, locked in a visage of anger on the high seat* quote:Then the housewife sent a man to Arnkel, and bade him tell him of the death of his father. Then Arnkel rode up to Hvamm, and some of his home-men with him. And when they came to Hvamm, then was Arnkel ware that his father was dead, and sat in his high-seat. But the folk were all full of dread, because to all folk his face seemed loathsome. *this has symbolic value. Sorceresses and Odin sit in the high seat when performing divination, and the place is involved in dark magic, so him dying on it is clearly a bad omen. The stiff corpse is impossible to budge, so they knock down a wall and carry him only with great difficulty to the mound they bury him inside. Soon enough the neighbourhood goes to hell: Cattle walking near his stead go insane, bellowing until they drop dead. A week later, herdsmen driving them around also turn up dead with coal-blue flesh and every bone in their bodies broken, making the situation unsustainable. Great noise is heard from Thorolfs place, likely because he walks on his roof at night - and his wife is so distraught by apparations of him sitting in the high seat looking pissy that she falls dead too. It is now spring, which is apparently the traditional time for burying people, and also for banishing the hungry dead. The buck is passed around a bit, with the Thorbrandssons refusing to take responsibility, until a dude named Thorod tells his bros that he'll fix it, and everyone is relieved. He gathers a posse, breaks open the hill, and they find Thorolf sitting inside, "undecayed and most evil to look on". They slag him onto four oxen, but they freak out, and he is somehow becoming heavier by the minute, so they bury him in a shallow grave in a small headland, and build a wall over it. In this arrangement, Thorolf rests peacefully as long as Arnkel lives. Unfortunately, Arnkel eats it in a duel, and eventually Thorolf rides again. Enter Thorod, who hears of Thorolf murdering a bunch of animals and people, and decides to handle the business. Although he moans a fair deal about it, he is the feudal lord of these guys, and the responsibility is his. When unearthing Thorolf, he is still unrotten, completely blue and has also grown in size, while being impossible to move. Deciding to nip the situation in the bud before Thorolf levels up further, they put limbers under him, roll him down the hill and onto a bale they build on the beach, burning the corpse. A stiff breeze blows most of the ashes away, but they throw the rest over the sea. Unfortunately the ashes have mad necromantic mojo, and they are licked off the stones on the beach by a cow placed off the reservation while it recovers from a broken leg. It disappears for a good long while, comes back pregnant, and has two calves: a weak cow that dies a while after, and a super strong bull calf. Everyone is stoked at the healthy, beautiful animal, until Thorods foster-mother, a women with prophetic powers, hears it braying, and declares that it has the voice of a troll, and that folks would do well to slay it. Thorod won't murder the fine animal, and while he pretends to obey her prophecy, he spares the calf. It grows enormous, and brays again, to which the foster-mother glibly casts shade on them for creating a heap of trouble for themselves, composing a verse about how Thorod will die to the bull. Sure enough, when it starts loving around with people, Thorodd goes to it and is gored to death. This drew a bit late, so I'll make another chapter with the ghastly tails and trials! Tias fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Feb 17, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2020 11:37
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Weka posted:How about a translation recommendation for the Hildebrandslied? Missed this  Well, depends on what you want with it. This quick and dirty translation by Ashliman conveys the plot well: https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hildebrand.html But some meaning of words get lost. A literary translation that was received well is here: https://books.google.com/books?id=BMEvAQAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s
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Oct 9, 2020 19:48
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Thanks! E: a link to the aforementioned literary translation https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/830hildebrandslied.asp Weka fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 21:43
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So I've learnt something's and looks like I brought a couple of books from that racist Stephen Flowers guy. Would you have any book suggestions for an English speaking person interested in the heathen religion. Ultimately I would like to not support racist scumbags by buying their books. I'm looking for guides and reference texts. I have the sagas written by Jackson Crawford. And "A little book about the runes" from Gudrun publishing.
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Oct 18, 2020 15:38
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Ichbinuber posted:So I've learnt something's and looks like I brought a couple of books from that racist Stephen Flowers guy. Honestly you could do worse than re-read the sagas and decide for yourself what they mean. I also recommend The Viking Way by Neil Price, which goes into a lot of detail on what archeological evidence has been found from iron age cultic places.
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Oct 18, 2020 17:06
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Ooof, yeah, he does describe himself as Asatru, and given what I know of him, it doesn't exactly sound out of character for him to be a cryptoracist. That sucks. I was all interested in learning more until I found that out. The mythologies and stuff are still cool though.
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Oct 18, 2020 21:11
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Saga of the Eyr-builders 4: Ghostly Boogaloo pt I - Bed Sheet Mojo and (Ghost) Seal Clubbing First, the sub-saga of Thorgunnas bed-sheets! It is a nice, warm and clear day on Frodis-Water, where Thorgunna and her family dwells. Folks are mowing and drying the haygrass, and suddenly a cloud appears. People say it may rain, and Thorrod tells them to gather the hay. Thorgunna refuses, laying it "in ridges", which is a bundle of some sort I guess. A fierce shower that blackens out the sun follows, and when it's over, people see that everything is drenched in blood. Afterwards, the blot dries and falls off all the hay except Thorgunnas. Thurid asks what that might foretell, and Thorgunna says she doesn't know, but that is is likely to be the wyrd of someone of those who were in the rain. Now, wyrd is a kind of flexible definition, which translates most easily to "fate". One's wyrd is a sum of the predestined fate given to you by the gods, but also what you do with it, and how the webs of fate respond to that behaviour. From context, it is clear that Thorgunna thinks someone is going to die, and may even suspect it's her, since the blood stuck to her hay. At any rate, she goes home, sloughs off her bloody clothes, and starts feeling ill. She doesn't eat any meat in the evening, and Thorod (being the gothi, he also has kind of state ranger and sheriff duties in the frontier landscape) is summoned to talk to her the next morning. Thorgunna doesn't believe she'll stay sick, but insists that Thorod should take her will, since things could go awry if she dies without having dictated it to him. Thorod promises to take heed of her wishes, and she makes her requests: She will be buried at Skallaholt, her good cloak and gold rings go to favorite relatives, but it is imperative that people destroy her bed-sheets. Not, she maintains, because she bedrudges anyone fine linen, but because not heeding this request will give trouble to whomever possesses it, and she doesn't want anyone to have trouble. Thorod says okay, leaves, and poor Thorgunna dies of her illness some days later. Thorod, being of sound honour, starts to carry out the bed and bed-gear and pile up kindling for the fire, when of course goodwife Thurid starts some poo poo. When Thorod explains what he is about to do, she says that she doesn't like burning such fine cloths. Thorod, doubling down, says that Thorgunna was really loving clear on what was to happen to the sheets, but Thurid plays the jealousy card, saying Thorgunna was an old hag who just didn't want anyone to have her good stuff. Thorod isn't convinced, really, and says trouble will ensue, but finally Thurid throws her arms around him and "pressed him eagerly", so that he eventually caves. The frame and mattress burns, but Thurid makes off with the quilt, sheet and post-hangings. On to the funeral! A great procession goes to Skallaholt, but is turned away at one of the peasants who might give them rest, and so enter the stead on empty bellies, carrying the casket inside. In the middle of the night, they hear noises, and goes to check against a possible break-in by thieves. Instaed, they find a sick rear end apparition of a tall, naked woman bringing out jars of victuals. Everyone cowers in fear, and Thorod kinda rubs it in to the peasant who wouldn't feed them that Thorgunna is back and while it's not his fault, it probably didn't help that his hospitality was so poor  Interestingly enough, after the peasant and his wife agrees to feed the entire company with meat, Thorgunnas ghost leaves the house and does not return. Everyone gets dry clothes and a priest is brought in to spray the whole area with holy water. They eat, even including the ghost food that Thorgunna brought out, but nothing bad comes of it. Afterwards, they complete the trek and the burial with nothing worth mentioning, except maybe that everyone else gives them all the provisions they ask for!Death, undeath and a seal clubbing at Frodiswater Some time, a weird half moon starts appearing in the shadows on the wall, so Thorod asks Thorir Wooden-Leg (more on him later) what's wrong, to which Thorir replies that it's a Weird Moon Season, which is I guess the old time Icelandic version of Bad Moon Risin'. The moon stays for a week, then we must assume it bugs off, since no mention is made of it thereafter. That winter, a shepherd appears in the stead, talking to himself, but everyone just assumes he's a weirdo and leaves him alone. Two weeks later, he strides up to his bed, lays in it and dies. They make sure to bury him properly, and hopes this isn't another Thorrolf situation. Unfortunately, it totally is: When Thorir Wooden-Leg goes outside to piss one night, the shepherd appears as a Draugr, pinning him and throwing him against a wall. This discomfits Thorir greatly, but he manages to escape, and stumbles into his bed, noting that his skin is black as coal with blue patches. This might be a symptom of frostbite, but usually frostbite is described by name, the coal-black and blue skin means ghost fuckery. Sure enough, Thorir falls ill and dies, and is buried in holy ground to placate his spirit, but it is soon afterwards seen in the company of the shepherd at night. After Throrir, more people fall sick and die, until at least six more have perished. This is when the hauntings in the longhouse start. The well-stocked fish larder seems to echo with the sounds of eating, but when the men check, the larder is quiet. One evening, when men are out fishing for more stock, a ghostly seal head starts rising from the floorboards in the fire-hall! A goodwife present grabs a club and immediately starts smacking the head back into the ground, but it keeps rising, and looks longingly at Thorgunnas bed-sheets! A house-carl arrives, and starts whacking the seal as well, but to no avail: The seal has risen to it's flippers, and the house-carl faints in horror. At this point a fellow named Kiartan shows up, grabs a huge sledge-hammer and keeps pounding the seal till it falls under the floor and disappears! He is hailed as a hero, but is super worried about what, if anything, the seal means for his fate. Follow next week as we conclude the tale of Thorgunnas sheets, and a complicated judicial solution is found to a mass haunting of the longhouse! E: I see now that Thorgunnas sheets show up much earlier, in which Thurid notices Thorgunnas fine bed-sheets that Thorgunna acquired as loot from England, where it is woven much finer than can be done in Iceland or Norway. She insists on buying it from Thorgunna and haggles a fair bit, but is rebuffed by Thorgunna who don't owe her anything. This is a bit of exposition that shows that Thurid cares more for her own desires than magick custom, ensuring that trouble will befall the colony. Astrofig posted:Ooof, yeah, he does describe himself as Asatru, and given what I know of him, it doesn't exactly sound out of character for him to be a cryptoracist. That sucks. I was all interested in learning more until I found that out. The mythologies and stuff are still cool though. Don't get us started. He's a dense, nazi, egocentric piece of poo poo who exploited the fact that no one else were bullshitting a budding neo-pagan market full tilt. Get a good translation of the Sagas (Jackson Crawfords, as mentioned, are really good), and dive in for yourself! Tias fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 19, 2020 09:41
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Tias posted:Honestly you could do worse than re-read the sagas and decide for yourself what they mean. I think I have read The Viking Way already, I'll have to double check, if not I'll order it for the collection. Thanks for the info and I'll delve back into the sagas.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:19
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Awesome, I'm proud of you! I never spend as much time reading them as I want to :o Also, Price is out with another book called Children of Ash and Elm, which goes more into viking life than heathenry, but also has rave reviews.
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Oct 20, 2020 08:07
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There's also Dr Crawford's youtube channel where he retells some of the myths and sagas as well as goes into historical and linguistic stuff.Tias posted:Awesome, I'm proud of you! I never spend as much time reading them as I want to :o I saw that when I was looking up The Viking Way and now I'm contemplating dropping another $50+ on books I don't have time for right now 
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Oct 20, 2020 18:08
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What does "White Pride Worldwide!" mean to you? Is it an aspiration that white pride be shared universally across the world? An impositional statement where you want to build a world where all people embrace white pride? An honest assessment where white pride is, in fact, worldwide and you think that is a good thing? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2020 01:24
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Saga of the Ejr-Builders 5: Ghostly Boogaloo II - Kiartan Kiallakson: Ghost Attorney In those days it happened that Thorod Scat-Catcher (yeah, I don't even know) and his crew died while fishing off the coast of Ennis. The ship and some fish came ashore, but no corpses. This is clearly an ill omen, but no one takes heed, except maybe Kiartan and Thurid, who takes the dead mens yule ale (ale kept around for the winter solstice sacrifice and drinking party "Jól", a precursor to modern Christmas) and use it for the "arvale", which is a word I've never heard before - my dictionary only has a nominative singular form of "arvālis", which is a tilled field. I'm guessing the ritual/festival space here. One day of partying later it all goes to poo poo though: When the assembled region has drunk and feasted for a whole day, suddenly Thorod and his men show up in the hall, dripping wet! People greet them with cheer, because everyone has like five dots in Occult and knows that it's a good omen when someone show up for their own burial ale, since that means they've been blessed by Ran, the sea goddess who took them. They stick around the dinner hall for a while, then go into the fire room, displacing the folks who sit there. Here they stay till the fires die down, then leave. The guests leave as well. The next day the cooking fires are made as usual, and when that happens, Thorod and crew show up again, and start wringing their wet clothes by the fire. No harm no foul - but then Thorir Wooden-Leg, who died at sea a ways back in the saga, shows up with his posse of six, who are all 'covered in mould'. This escalates quickly, as they shake their dirty poo poo on the floor, then starts flinging the mud at Thorod and his men! The family flees in terror. They eventually return, making a fire in a smaller chamber, where they judge it less likely to attract the hungry dead. Unfortunately, both parties arrive again and start flinging crap at each other. Kiartan comes up with a solution the next day: Make a big ghost fire in the fire-hall, and then make the meal-fires somewhere else. This kinda works and things are tolerable during yuletide, although the situation has to be adressed at some point. Enter the loving ghost tail! A lot of knocking and moaning starts coming from the fish larder again, and this being a time where the larder is needed, guys start searching the heap of fish. Eventually the discover a big, ghostly tail rising from the heap, and naturally everyone reacts by grabbing hold of the thing and trying to pull it out of the larder! Folks know it's a ghost tail, but figure they have to do something, and wanton violence worked on the ghost seal - and folks note this kinda looks like a seal tale so why the hell not. The tail suddenly spasms and flies off in a rush, tearing off the skin of the palms of those holding it the tightest. After this the tail isn't seen again, so maybe it worked. The people then tear down the larder, and skin all the fish hanging around in the hopes of locating the possession, but with no luck. At this point Thorgrima Witch-Face, Wooden-Legs widow, falls dead after a short illness. The same night she's seen haunting the country-side with Thorir, and seeing as she was a competent magician while alive, this probably doesn't bode well. We also learn that the ghost tail probably started a ghost disease of some kind, 'cause the thing that killed Thorgrima also kills a bunch of servants and many of the servants in Frodiswater leave the area. This is more or less the last straw for the good gothi Kiartan, and he goes to former no-poo poo zone Helgafjell to take advice from his uncle, and one of the lead roles of the saga, Snorri the Gothi. Snorri listens carefully to the relaying of events and Kiartans pained questions on what to be done, and comes up with a plot as is his habit: Some guy named Gizur the White sent a priest to Helgafjell recently, and Snorri sends the dude along with Kiartan back to Frodiswater along with his son Thord and six heavies. The first part of Snorris plan is rather clever in it's simplicity: Burn Thorgunnas bed sheets, and have the priest make sure no supernatural fuckery ensues. The second plan, much less simple, holy gently caress: Summon all the dead and sue them for trespassing, a prosecution formally known as a 'Door-Doom', while the priest blesses everyone with holy water, gives absolution, sings hymns and generally create a christian vibe to cheese the heathen ghosts off. So it goes, on the eve of Candlemass, they summon everyone, dead and alive, to Frodiswater, at the time when the meal-fires are lit, since that is when the hauntings usually occur. Thurid has fallen ill with the Ghost Tails at this point, and Kiartan knows he gotta act quick. He pulls down the sheets, walks past Thorod and all the other ghastly assholes and burns the linen right in front of them. Then he summons Thorir Wooden-Leg, and Thord Snorrisson summons Thorod, which apparently a spell-like ability gotten by being their family. They make some noise about how they know the summoned have lost both life and luck, but must still appear before them. Then he draws up a case, suing them as he would at a thing of the living, naming them and passing verdict, and then passing judgment. Hilariously, Thorir replies something like "Oh well, here have I sat while sit I might" then leaves the stead for good. Then sentence is passed on the shepherd who slew Thorir, who replies "I'm leaving, though I hoped I had been more welcome.", and leaves. Then it's Thorgrima Witch-Face, who says "while the meeting persisted I persisted", and hauls rear end. All the ghosts follow, and after being named says they're loath to go. Finally doom is passed on Thorod, who says "Meseems here there is little peace, so we'll get otherwhere", and leaves through the door opposing the Thing like the others. Afterwards they sprinkled holy water everywhere and sang hymns with much noise and conviction, and the hauntings end for good. This concludes my highlights of the Ejrbyggjasaga! I might do an epilogue about the themes, but these are IMHO the funniest bits. I left out nearly half the saga, which deals a lot with legal codes and the complex interpersonal relationships forming the basis of life among the early settlers of Iceland. Incelshok Na posted:What does "White Pride Worldwide!" mean to you? Is it an aspiration that white pride be shared universally across the world? An impositional statement where you want to build a world where all people embrace white pride? An honest assessment where white pride is, in fact, worldwide and you think that is a good thing? I don't know how long you've been drinking brake fluid, but it probably isn't doing you any good. 
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Oct 27, 2020 10:38
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Incelshok Na posted:What does "White Pride Worldwide!" mean to you? Is it an aspiration that white pride be shared universally across the world? An impositional statement where you want to build a world where all people embrace white pride? An honest assessment where white pride is, in fact, worldwide and you think that is a good thing? I may not know much, but I know Loki looks at posters with this dumb and badly executed a gimmick and just thinks 'fuckwit'.
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Oct 27, 2020 12:16
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Incelshok Na posted:What does "White Pride Worldwide!" mean to you? Is it an aspiration that white pride be shared universally across the world? An impositional statement where you want to build a world where all people embrace white pride? An honest assessment where white pride is, in fact, worldwide and you think that is a good thing? gently caress off with this poo poo. Read your probate reason to see my full views on your particular flavor of religious bigotry. If anyone's curious I reached out to Fromage before doing mod stuff here, so please don't read this as me stepping on his toes. He's cool with it.
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Oct 27, 2020 20:11
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