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Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

That's interesting. Especially given that people who have anxiety and depression would, I think, stand to gain the most from meditation.

Meditation makes sense if the depression and anxiety is "suffering" in the Buddhist sense, because that is pretty much self inflicted. Meditation is a tool to realize it is self inflicted and to try and stop it.

Some mental states are not self inflicted like that. An extreme example would be schizophrenia, or if it turned out the anxiety was caused by some hormone secreting tumor. And, unfortunately, medical science as it is can't always do a test to distinguish the ultimate cause of ones suffering. I knew someone who suffered for over a year with a strange sort of malaise, absent mindedness, and loss of appetite. What was originally diagnosed as stress from going off to university turned out to be a small tumor in the inner ear that was making them slightly dizzy all the time.


quote:

I don't know if I "officially" suffer from anxiety or depression, but I'm about to start therapy which will hopefully give me a better idea. I do have some of the symptoms for sure though. Nevertheless I'd like to try meditation. What's the best way to get started? I've tried "meditating" as I understand it, meaning "clearing my mind" and focusing on breathing and it's basically impossible. I'm too easily distracted which is of course the problem to begin with.

As others have mentioned, mantras are a bit more of a forceful option. Breath counting is another option, to give the mind something more substantive to focus on.


You can also use the random thoughts as an object of meditation. Start by just watching the breath, and put an imaginary post-it note "breathing" on each breath. When you catch your mind wandering, rather than see it as a failure of some sort, label the thought. Either just label it as "thinking", or maybe something more descriptive but still one-word. Thinking of what to have for dinner? Label it "future". Remembering the past? Label it "past". Thinking of an itch on your nose right now? Label it "itch". Then go back to labeling your breaths, until your next opportunity to label what ever takes your attention off the breath.

It is like a meta-level of focusing. Accept that your are some evolved ape in a highly distracting modern world. Don't be surprised if you have some random thought pass through your head between every breath. Just label it and go back to the breath. So long as you can mentally step back and label a sensation, you build up your ability to stay focused.

Part of having a "clear mind" is just to be clearly aware that you have distractions. The better you get at noticing "I am distracted", the less likely you are to be carried away by them.

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Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Yeah, meditation has really helped my anxiety, which has been passed down through my family from at least my grandfather (who was orphaned young during the depression) to my mother to me. I realized it was clinging to both the past and future rather than a physiological issue, which has really helped quiet things for me.

Last night I had the realization that one of the things I must work on is True Love. In reading chapter 22. The four immeasurable minds, there is discussion of your loved ones as a means to satisfy oneself rather than truly understanding what they need and providing it, which is very difficult for me for ~reasons~. Nice to have goals and specific things to work on.

The best part of this is that TNH illustrated this with a story about his dislike for durian. He really really hated durian. Clearly, right thinking.

Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 2, 2022

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance
Meditation has helped my anxiety somewhat as well because I'm better now at watching my own thoughts and potentially discarding the ones I don't need. I notice anxious thinking earlier on when it's easier to refute or discard rather than not noticing what's going on until I'm halfway to a panic attack.

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003

Bilirubin posted:

I realized it was clinging to both the past and future rather than a physiological issue, which has really helped quiet things for me.



This is 100% my problem. Do you have any further advice (meditation-wise, or uh, just in general)?

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>
My favorite description of where to rest one's focus or attention while at meditation is 'man the sense-gates.' Things will come up that will drag your awareness away, but when you catch yourself getting pulled away, just return back to your breath and your senses.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance
I'm not sure if this is wrong but I mix up my meditation focus a lot. I'll do breath, mantra, listening to sounds, open awareness, body scan, honing in on a specific sensation (great when you have pain you can zero in on)

Usually I stick with 1-2 of these per session

Caufman
May 7, 2007

Bilirubin posted:

Yeah, meditation has really helped my anxiety, which has been passed down through my family from at least my grandfather (who was orphaned young during the depression) to my mother to me. I realized it was clinging to both the past and future rather than a physiological issue, which has really helped quiet things for me.

Last night I had the realization that one of the things I must work on is True Love. In reading chapter 22. The four immeasurable minds, there is discussion of your loved ones as a means to satisfy oneself rather than truly understanding what they need and providing it, which is very difficult for me for ~reasons~. Nice to have goals and specific things to work on.

The best part of this is that TNH illustrated this with a story about his dislike for durian. He really really hated durian. Clearly, right thinking.

My dad, a proper Indonesian man, loves the taste of durians but think they smell terrible. My mom thinks they taste terrible and also smell terrible. I think they smell not that bad but also taste not that great, and they're inferior in every way to mangos, which thankfully grow plentifully throughout the country and is always the better fruit option.

Hiro Protagonist
Oct 25, 2010

Last of the freelance hackers and
Greatest swordfighter in the world
I get really figitty and itchy while meditating, and I find myself constantly readjusting my position. I don't know if that's due to lack of practice, overly avoiding unpleasant sensations, or ADHD taking over. It gets pretty annoying.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Ramrod Hotshot posted:

This is 100% my problem. Do you have any further advice (meditation-wise, or uh, just in general)?

One thing that has helped put it into perspective for me is to note thoughts as they come up in mediation, and label them "past", "future", "fantasy", etc. and return to my breath.

Caufman posted:

My dad, a proper Indonesian man, loves the taste of durians but think they smell terrible. My mom thinks they taste terrible and also smell terrible. I think they smell not that bad but also taste not that great, and they're inferior in every way to mangos, which thankfully grow plentifully throughout the country and is always the better fruit option.
The only fruit a tiger will eat! (or so I hear)

A friend of mine, American of Irish descent, loved the tingle they gave you, as if she was slowly being poisoned. Of course, I am of Swedish ancestry, and my cousins in Sweden make an event of the annual release of surströmming. People eat strange things.

Thirteen Orphans
Dec 2, 2012

I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

Bilirubin posted:

People eat strange things.

Someone once asked a Korean friend of mine why Koreans eat rotten food, in reference to kimchi.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Because that's what it's ment fer!

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Thirteen Orphans posted:

Someone once asked a Korean friend of mine why Koreans eat rotten food, in reference to kimchi.

I made a kimchi jjigae a couple of days ago, was to die for

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



I have long thought that aliens will be baffled at the quantities of rotten food humans eat. Truly, the human ability to just eat whatever the gently caress has few limits.

I read the chapter on Right Action in Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, finally beating Mara and getting back to going through it.

I did not have deep or cosmic thoughts. The talk of right eating and right livelihood made me think of a box of cookies I had gotten at the grocery store and polished off in a few days. I didn't dislike them - had I had a couple of the cookies with a cup of coffee it would have been pleasant - but at a certain point I did not gain any benefit from them, I simply ate them out of habit or for a brief taste of sweetness. Nothing wrong, I expect, with a little sweetness, but I can get apple slices or some of those chocolate coated dried fruits.

The thought seemed bourgeois and petty to me, but then, not all thoughts must be exalted, or of Political or Cosmic Weight.

LuckyCat
Jul 26, 2007

Grimey Drawer

Hiro Protagonist posted:

I get really figitty and itchy while meditating, and I find myself constantly readjusting my position. I don't know if that's due to lack of practice, overly avoiding unpleasant sensations, or ADHD taking over. It gets pretty annoying.

Time of day and how I currently feel help out a lot for me. For example, if I wake up and I’m a bit drowsy, I find I can easily settle into a relaxing meditative state. The tricky part is just not falling back asleep, but if you remove yourself from bed and sit in the sunlight of the morning in a lotus position right after waking up, at least I have found this to be ideal.

Also in general if I’m sitting around and notice I have low stress and calm energy. I take advantage of that by settling into meditation.

Other times, my bodily senses are too heightened and I get itchy, fidgety, and easily distracted. A few times I’ve successfully worked through that. Normally if I can sit for 10 minutes in attempted meditation, it will eventually turn into a much more focused meditative state.

All of the above are things I’ve noticed about myself but your adventure my vary! Experimentation is key to finding out what works and what doesn’t. I approach it like sleeping. If I lay in bed for more than 10 minutes and still can’t fall asleep, I get up and do something else until my next attempt.

E: I also forgot to mention walking meditation. No matter how fidgety I am I can normally do this with success.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance
I sometimes use itches as my object of focus. It's neat to inspect an itch instead of reacting to it. They usually end up going away.

Virgil Vox
Dec 8, 2009

prom candy posted:

I sometimes use itches as my object of focus. It's neat to inspect an itch instead of reacting to it. They usually end up going away.

Yes, I do this as well. It's also a handy technique to avoid breaking the seal on my masks.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Oh god, face casting. Yeah that's a world of itch.

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Spring has been excellent for my mood. I have always preferred meditation in a garden space, and have been able to make myself a sort of copse to enjoy while I sit. Birdsong is the ultimate mindfulness fuel.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



the buddhist group im part of at work is hosting talks with daniel ingram. i am not personally a fan. i'm hoping one of y'all can either change my mind or make me laugh by dunking on the guy (the latter seems much more likely but i wanna be open minded here :shrug:)

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Achmed Jones posted:

the buddhist group im part of at work is hosting talks with daniel ingram. i am not personally a fan. i'm hoping one of y'all can either change my mind or make me laugh by dunking on the guy (the latter seems much more likely but i wanna be open minded here :shrug:)

His background seems to be very practical Theravada style meditation. And from my own years of experience doing various types of meditation, he definitely knows his stuff on that topic. As in, there are many things I've experienced on the cushion over the years, and I later found comments from him explaining very similar experiences. And the only other people covering similar things are all in that class of well regarded advanced meditators.

I don't know if he would be all that interesting if you wanted some deep discussion on Mahayana sutras. And I can see how his tendency to talk a million miles an hour could rub people the wrong way.

Given that he is in a rather specific niche, what prompted your buddhist group to ask him to speak?

LuckyCat
Jul 26, 2007

Grimey Drawer
Does anyone else feel guilty for killing insects? This year it is bothering me more than it usually does. There’s been a colony of ants that make frequent, but not really problematic, excursions into our house and my reaction is to put a stop to it. Or when an ant is crawling on the kitchen counter to just tap it with my finger and it ceases to be. If I think about it, even just walking outside I am killing insects on accident and that doesn’t make me feel guilty like intentionally killing them does. I’ve also held off on our annual pest control service because of this. Any Buddhist insight into this issue?

Thirteen Orphans
Dec 2, 2012

I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.
I asked a similar question and got these responses:

Nessus posted:

I think that your answer is ant repellent and keeping up cleanliness. If you inadvertently squash some ants while going about your business then I think that this is not held to have nearly as much karmic impact as doing so willingly.

I remember hearing a similar talk about a retreat center that had a mouse infestation that was getting to the point of nearly getting their building condemned or something. I believe they found some other way to resolve the issue (repellents? a cat? though a cat is just moving the problem around!) but the discussions were basically "Well, one of us is gonna have to do it, I guess we'll draw lots to see who has to go buy and deploy the mousetraps."

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

maintaining purity is impossible while engaging with an impure world. this is the reason why monks go to monasteries where they don't engage with the world in order to train and purify themselves. do what you can, accept your bombu nature and that you are not capable of maintaining your purity in this matter, engage in merit transfer so the ants may be reborn in a less squishy form, and use this as a lesson in your own humility.

LuckyCat
Jul 26, 2007

Grimey Drawer
Great food for thought. Thank you!

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



Beowulfs_Ghost posted:

Given that he is in a rather specific niche, what prompted your buddhist group to ask him to speak?

the individual organizer is into _that_ broadly speaking and it's not skin off others' noses to host a chat so might as well have it go through

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

LuckyCat posted:

Does anyone else feel guilty for killing insects??

If the situation is doing it by accident, at worst one can say that is a lack of mindfulness. And if you mean tiny bugs hidden in the grass, it is hard to argue that one can be that mindfull.

If the situation is some poisonous or disease carrying insect, and it is "coming right for you", then maybe you can argue self defense.

When it comes to crushing bugs on the kitchen counter, that gets into the territory of intent. The chain there is that, because you had the sensation of annoyance, then the insect must be crushed to death.

Ants looking for food probably have no intent to harm you. So the more interesting question is, why do you want to harm them? What little seed of karma in you cries out for "death by smashing" at the sight of an ant?

The fact that you are even stopping to think "why am I killing?" means that the Buddhism is working.



Achmed Jones posted:

the individual organizer is into _that_ broadly speaking and it's not skin off others' noses to host a chat so might as well have it go through

Buddhism is a pretty broad topic. I myself am not into Pure Land or Tibetan diety practices, but if others want to talk about it, who am I to say they are doing it wrong.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



I'm having an interesting and, like, basic-seeming problem: It is very difficult for me to allow breath to happen naturally when doing breathing meditation!

Like I watch it and I feel like I'm controlling it. I'm not even entirely sure if I am! I'm probably just very used to doing things like 'breathe in for four... breathe out for four...' that trying to sort of silently be present with the natural process feels sort of like I'm trying to piss and someone's watching.

Has anyone else encountered this particular issue?

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003

I just completed a yoga course which I really enjoyed. Looking forward to continuing practicing yoga, even though I'm pretty bad at it now.

It also kind of got me interested in its place in Buddhism - and reading this thread has me interested in Buddhism in general. So I'm looking for a book that kind of ties in Buddhist philosophy to yoga, and is very much a general introduction to both.

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Nessus posted:

I'm having an interesting and, like, basic-seeming problem: It is very difficult for me to allow breath to happen naturally when doing breathing meditation!

Like I watch it and I feel like I'm controlling it. I'm not even entirely sure if I am! I'm probably just very used to doing things like 'breathe in for four... breathe out for four...' that trying to sort of silently be present with the natural process feels sort of like I'm trying to piss and someone's watching.

Has anyone else encountered this particular issue?

My problem is that natural, slower and deeper breathing sends me into coughing fits ever since Covid, so my practice has suffered of late

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



Nessus posted:

I'm having an interesting and, like, basic-seeming problem: It is very difficult for me to allow breath to happen naturally when doing breathing meditation!

Like I watch it and I feel like I'm controlling it. I'm not even entirely sure if I am! I'm probably just very used to doing things like 'breathe in for four... breathe out for four...' that trying to sort of silently be present with the natural process feels sort of like I'm trying to piss and someone's watching.

Has anyone else encountered this particular issue?

yes. what normally happens with me is i'll focus on counting while breathing, at which point i'm definitely controlling breaths. more properly, i'm consciously breathing _to the count_ more than i'm _counting with my breaths_. then a thought will pop up of some sort or ill have an itch or whatever, and as part of returning to breath i can (ideally, not every time) return to properly noticing it rather than controlling it.

even without a distraction-come-back loop, once my breathing is pretty well dialed in and the count cadence is appropriate and all that, eventually it'll shift to where the breath is just _happening_ and the counting is the active part of my awareness. (this isn't all that different from doing the same thing with a mantra or chant or w/e). at that point i can stop counting (or chanting) if i want to and just sit

the above is pretty best-case scenario, i'm not saying it goes well every time, but that's kinda how it works for me

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Nessus posted:

Has anyone else encountered this particular issue?

It comes up more if you are watching your abdomen rise and fall, since that is right next to the muscles that control breathing. This can cause a sort of confusion over "watching breathing" and "watching me move my muscles that cause breathing".

Try watching the sensation of air moving across the skin in the nostrils or on the upper lip.

On the flip side, if you really are in the zone with your breath watching, the feeling of doubt and notions of "control" are exactly the sort of think your ego will say to distract you.

In that case, just fall back to the classic "I see you, Mara." Chances are, you aren't really doing the meditation wrong. Instead, the ego is just trying to get you to stop meditating, and to go play with it instead.

The Butcher
Apr 20, 2005

Well, at least we tried.
Nap Ghost

Beowulfs_Ghost posted:

Try watching the sensation of air moving across the skin in the nostrils or on the upper lip.

Obviously, no wrong way to do it. Whatever works, however it works.

This one does work for me though. Counting just seems like work and would be distracting to me.

Feel every breath, every sensation. It's really nice on a cold day with a bit of breeze to feel your breath move around you and each touch of the air moving.

Thoughts can pass by and around like clouds around a mountain. No need to hold them, no need to resent them. Let them go, return to feeling your breath, the wind, the sun, the sounds around you. Even if it's not super peaceful poo poo. You can meditate on anything. Whatever works.

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

The Butcher posted:

Obviously, no wrong way to do it. Whatever works, however it works.

Very much so.

If someone says the sensation at the nostrils was too subtle to hold their attention, I would suggest watching the abdomen raise and fall, as it is a more noticeable sensation.

But if the abdomen produces too much sensation, and too much thought, it might be better to have to strain ones perception to just focus on the upper lip.


And like any other practice, the more you improve, the more you have to up your game. The Pali Canon started with some rather long lists of meditation objects to work through, and Buddhist over the centuries have added many more.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Humanity's real enemy is me!
Hya hya foowah!
Lately I've been having this sort of strange cognitive state. It will happen at different points in the week, not during meditation. This is an example of what it felt like today:
I was parking my car after driving home from work. I turned off my car and, looking at my hands, suddenly felt very conscious of how my hands exist in a conditioned state. It's hard to explain exactly what that is like. I guess I would say, I normally take the appearance of my hands for granted, but this time they looked to me the way they'd look to someone other than myself, and I felt very aware of my position as a single subject. Then I looked out at a large tree whose leaves were rustling in the wind, and took in how all the leaves of all the trees around me were rustling in the wind. I didn't feel especially emotional, but I felt the beginning of tears swelling in my eyes and felt a little lightheaded, and it felt like I was taking in a mass of sensory information all at once. I felt like I could disappear into a single leaf quivering on a tree in the distance.

My brain can be kind of funky as someone with mental health issues, and I've had much more challenging and alarming cognitive states than this, but they've generally been quite negative. By comparison, this mental state seems pretty benign except that it seems a little bit crazy to be staring off into space like that.

In the past, I've occasionally had what I'd call "the warm fuzzies," where in the middle of a crowded street or something, I'll feel an awareness of deep warm empathy and connection with everyone and everything around me. But this new sensation, which has only started after reading the koans in Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, does not feel like a warm fuzzy. It feels more like the feeling of becoming aware that I'm in a lucid dream. Like being slightly startled into thinking, "Wait, what is this?"

Does this sound benign, or possibly even beneficial? It's not something I can do on demand; it just seems to happen at different times. If it only happened during meditation, I would dismiss it, but the fact that it happens on its own is a little concerning to me.

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019



:420::toot::420:

Cephas posted:

Lately I've been having this sort of strange cognitive state. It will happen at different points in the week, not during meditation. This is an example of what it felt like today:
I was parking my car after driving home from work. I turned off my car and, looking at my hands, suddenly felt very conscious of how my hands exist in a conditioned state. It's hard to explain exactly what that is like. I guess I would say, I normally take the appearance of my hands for granted, but this time they looked to me the way they'd look to someone other than myself, and I felt very aware of my position as a single subject. Then I looked out at a large tree whose leaves were rustling in the wind, and took in how all the leaves of all the trees around me were rustling in the wind. I didn't feel especially emotional, but I felt the beginning of tears swelling in my eyes and felt a little lightheaded, and it felt like I was taking in a mass of sensory information all at once. I felt like I could disappear into a single leaf quivering on a tree in the distance.

My brain can be kind of funky as someone with mental health issues, and I've had much more challenging and alarming cognitive states than this, but they've generally been quite negative. By comparison, this mental state seems pretty benign except that it seems a little bit crazy to be staring off into space like that.

In the past, I've occasionally had what I'd call "the warm fuzzies," where in the middle of a crowded street or something, I'll feel an awareness of deep warm empathy and connection with everyone and everything around me. But this new sensation, which has only started after reading the koans in Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, does not feel like a warm fuzzy. It feels more like the feeling of becoming aware that I'm in a lucid dream. Like being slightly startled into thinking, "Wait, what is this?"

Does this sound benign, or possibly even beneficial? It's not something I can do on demand; it just seems to happen at different times. If it only happened during meditation, I would dismiss it, but the fact that it happens on its own is a little concerning to me.

The disclaimer up front is that we're approximating subjective conscious experiences using words and I may be completely incorrect in correlating this with something I've experienced, that sounds similar to me, but I'd rather just get the words into the post and let you be the judge rather than refrain from sharing what that sounds like to me. I think you did a very good job articulating some things that are difficult to articulate. I'll make my attempt:


Your description of looking at your hand or the trees and the leaves reminds me of something that started happening to me when I first started consistently and intentionally meditating, which coincided with a time when I was doing a daily 5k jog to get some exercise and clear my mind. After a few months the jog stopped being quite as challenging and I was able to start to really enjoy it. Every so often while running I would have a moment that would start with the realization that I wasn't anxious. At all. And after a few more moments the thinking would start up, but a different sort of thinking, in the absence of anxiety. This was at the time a very novel thing for me, the notion of the absence of anxiety just noteworthy in and of itself. I would think things like huh, I'm breathing and feeling my heartbeat and seeing the path and feeling my footfalls hit the dirt and seeing the sun nearing the horizon and smelling the trees around me and without putting names on everything the totality of this whole thing is really quite lovely and I feel so lucky to be here and to be experiencing this. But then I would realize I called it a thought but it was actually nonverbal and what I was having was just the experience of feeling that, and being that feeling, in that place and time. Not the words describing the feeling, or the analyzer of the words describing the feeling, or, or, or, and so on.


First, I think the warm fuzzies you're describing are in the neighborhood of bodhicitta. When it springs up in an unprompted and uncontrived way it's quite wonderful. Depending on who you listen to, and I'll say it does make a lot of sense to me, this is essentially the whole ballgame. Practice, get enlightened, see your original self, become a buddha, what difference does it make? When the warm fuzzies of universal interconnectivity and deep empathy with everyone and everything are there, where is dukkha, where is practice, where is progress?

And then I ask myself, well, where do these feelings of universal empathy and interconnectedness go, when they're not present?

And then I ask myself, "Go?"

And then I remember they can't go anywhere at all, because there's nowhere to go but here and there's nothing I am but that.


As for:

quote:

It feels more like the feeling of becoming aware that I'm in a lucid dream. Like being slightly startled into thinking, "Wait, what is this?"

That to me feels like the purpose of the koan practice you've been getting into. Phrased another way, per Joshu, being gently startled into thinking "wait, what is this?" is Mu. Phrased another way per Linji, it's a slap in the face. Phrased another way per Seung Sahn, it's a slap of the floor. The reason we aren't always asking the question Wait, What Is This is because our conditioning has us constantly experiencing sensory phenomena through conceptial filters we've grown habituated and conditioned to through culture, upbringing, and so on. It's not a bad thing, it's how our brains keep us alive. The only way we can function is through nonstop heuristic and simplification of a firehose of sensory input. Meditation practice can help us bring awareness to these processes by slowing the flow of sensory input down to something manageable like the breath or the support of the cushion. Koan practice can help us bring awareness to the filters themselves, in many cases by highlighting a contradiction, subverting an expectation, or otherwise calling attention to the liminal spaces where our conceptual filtering autopilot is the easist to perceive. To me, the connection you made with lucid dreaming stands out - it's not new knowledge, it's just remembering. And maybe it's a particular kind of remembering, it's remembering identity. What is this? Asked with a gentle and humble, calm and warm curiosity, - is that question not what and who you are?

You mentioned before that you enjoyed Seung Sahn's circle analogy; what you're describing reminds me of this case from the Blue Cliff Record koan collection. I love this one. The way I relate to it has changed over time but currently I think what I like the most is the economy of language; Nansen cuts down attachment to form and attachment to formlessness with a single phrase. It's not correct to say the flower is or isn't a dream. It's beautiful, is what it is.

ram dass in hell fucked around with this message at 04:21 on May 19, 2022

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Humanity's real enemy is me!
Hya hya foowah!
Thank you for your feedback. I read it and really appreciated it. That koan is interesting to me. I have noticed that many koan take the form of someone being corrected on their mistaken views of attainment. That is something I always take very seriously--in fact, it makes me uneasy to hear that attainment is possible and certifiable at all. But I suppose that unease is partially aversion and will eventually go away.

I had a dream the other night. In the dream, I was visiting my childhood elementary school. I saw the big tree in the middle of the school's field. I was suddenly struck with the realization that, for the decade I had been at that school, I had never once appreciated the tree or gotten to know it. I decided to climb the tree and embrace it and enter a deep state of communion with the tree to make up for lost time. But before I could enter a deep state of communion, I had to eat a special piece of candy that was supposed to spiritually prepare me. I unfolded the piece of candy from its wrapper and took a bite. Surprised and distraught, I said, "What? This candy tastes like nothing." Then I woke up, and I realized I had slept through my alarm and would be late for work.

Hiro Protagonist
Oct 25, 2010

Last of the freelance hackers and
Greatest swordfighter in the world
Lately I've been feeling like the part of practice that was somewhat easier for me, empathy, is increasingly hard. I just feel like I'm developing this swirling vertex of pure hatred as I see more and more news. It seems that the GOP has just decided cruelty for cruelty's sake is it's main platform, and these pro-life, pro-gun, anti-vax assholes get more and more power and there's nothing I can do. I'm getting to the point I have a physical reaction of disgust when I hear right-wing party rhetoric. Loving-Kindness Meditation feels like I'm lying, and I can't separate the person from the ignorance anymore. Have other people felt like that? What has helped?

Chinook
Apr 11, 2006

SHODAI

Perhaps seeing them as deluded, misled, confused, ill, and suffering will help open up genuine compassion. At least the masses….

Actual manipulative leaders may be more challenging, I would think.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Hiro Protagonist posted:

Lately I've been feeling like the part of practice that was somewhat easier for me, empathy, is increasingly hard. I just feel like I'm developing this swirling vertex of pure hatred as I see more and more news. It seems that the GOP has just decided cruelty for cruelty's sake is it's main platform, and these pro-life, pro-gun, anti-vax assholes get more and more power and there's nothing I can do. I'm getting to the point I have a physical reaction of disgust when I hear right-wing party rhetoric. Loving-Kindness Meditation feels like I'm lying, and I can't separate the person from the ignorance anymore. Have other people felt like that? What has helped?
What has helped me in this case was to consume less news.

Now don't get me wrong here. I am not calling for ignorance or disengagement. But: In any particular day, leaving aside days of great involvement or an imminent disaster striking your area, such as a hurricane, there is probably not enough actual events - as opposed to commentary upon events - to fill more than the equivalent of one or two newspapers' A sections, the front page of a comparable website, or thirty or so minutes of news reporting on radio or video. Monitoring much more intensely than that, unless it is part of your explicit responsibility (as opposed to an abstract, "I have to keep doomscrolling, or else I am being an rear end in a top hat" sense of responsibility) gives you a lot more negatives than positives, imo.

Many media outlets, both firms and individuals, are working very hard to keep you engaged with their content -- which often means playing heavily upon the three poisons, and encouraging the formation of a habit. This is not even out of malice, although I think the impulse can be used maliciously; it is just an emergent structure of how this human society is organized, the technology it has, and the actions taken in the past.

If you are anything like me - because the above is a goal that I have set and I do not make it, more often than not - I imagine you spend much more than half an hour of each day engaging in the abstract consumption of media products discussing the news, which is not the same as learning about what has happened. To give the example of the GOP posters, you could probably guess what Ted Cruz has to say on any issue with reasonable accuracy. Is it necessary to read what he says? Does it provide you with any benefit or information?

By cutting down to a simple refresher of the news of the day I have generally found my mood elevated and my ability to practice as well as engage in everyday tasks in a mindful manner to increase; I have also been able to more effectively support those who I know and care for who are directly affected by negative news. When I have been the one directly affected, I have at least been able to face it with more energy. I have even been spontaneously moved to something nearer to quantifiable action much more readily, because I do not acquire the psychic exhaustion of being constantly involved with whatever today's drat-fool thing is, and in discourse/arguments around the drat-fool thing.

One specific trick that may help this practice, though it isn't particularly Buddhist, was to kind of find a neutral/non-news broad equivalent to whatever your habitual behavior is. I was constantly checking forums threads and news feeds during January 6 2020, so I blocked a couple of the key sites and made myself channel any 'gotta load a news web site' into 'go to Atlas Obscura'. It helped.

Hiro Protagonist
Oct 25, 2010

Last of the freelance hackers and
Greatest swordfighter in the world
Thanks, I think that'll help some. It just feels like it's getting harder to be empathetic and kind in this world. I know other practitioners have lived through much worse with much more empathy, but it sometimes feels impossible. But distancing myself is really all I can do.

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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Hiro Protagonist posted:

Thanks, I think that'll help some. It just feels like it's getting harder to be empathetic and kind in this world. I know other practitioners have lived through much worse with much more empathy, but it sometimes feels impossible. But distancing myself is really all I can do.
It is an obstacle, no doubt about it; it is an obstacle we face in our times. But to quote a bodhisattva of a previous age,

quote:

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.
“So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

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