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Pulvis Sumus posted:if you don't think symbols have the power to shape our lives, go take a look at any number of oppressive institutions that use this poo poo on the regs to mold people's minds and shape societal narratives. I'm honestly not trying to take a dump on something than has meaning to you, but that line right there is a pretty good summation of how most religious institutions work.
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Feb 19, 2020 04:18
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Sprue posted:I'm curious where you developed your understanding of Christian theology from? You articulated something very well that I've pondered on for years, something that has given me the desire to explore church going as an adult, to try to find again something that I remember as a child. As part of being a radical/leftist, there's this idea that you have to leave all religion behind, but there is something missing in the engagement of the world from just a scientific/humanist place - something that humans have been experiencing as long as we've recognizable as humans. Anyway, I'm just curious, because you don't sound like a winger, and it's something that's been on my mind in the last while. I'd be happy to talk with you - go ahead and try sending me a PM again, I've been meaning to buy plat for a while.
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Feb 19, 2020 04:18
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Frankenstyle posted:I honestly not trying to take a dump on something than has meaning to you, but that line right there is a pretty good summation of how most religious institutions work. That's ok, it's a fair point. I'm not really sure how to work around that entirely. I have had positive encounters with the more liberal denominations who are doing a lot of good work in social justice efforts and developing educational curriculum rooted in inclusive, progressive values but, being institutions, they still have some of the problems that accompany them. I'm not really sure what liberating these images from institutions would look like, or how that would work, if it would work at all since I think the communal aspect is important and communities have a way of becoming institutions themselves, which is not to say that all institutions are "bad" or functionally useless. I think at the very least there has to be a lot of efforts to keep them fairly limited in the scope of their power and authority and grounded in compassionate/inclusive principles that need to be consistently reevaluated in light of shifting cultural paradigms. I don't really have any concrete answers and this issue is a tension I find myself wrestling with in regard to my theological principles or whatever you want to call them. Pulvis Sumus fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 04:27
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Pulvis Sumus posted:That's ok, it's a fair point. I'm not really sure how to work around that entirely. I have had positive encounters with the more liberal denominations who are doing a lot of good work in social justice efforts and developing educational curriculum rooted in inclusive, progressive values but, being institutions, they still have some of the problems that accompany them. I'm not really sure what liberating these images from institutions would look like, or how that would work, if it would work at all since I think the communal aspect is important and communities have a way of becoming institutions themselves, which is not to say that all institutions are "bad" or functionally useless. I think at the very least there has to be a lot of efforts to keep them fairly limited in the scope of their power and authority and grounded in compassionate/inclusive principles that need to be consistently reevaluated in light of shifting cultural paradigms. I don't really have any concrete answers and this issue is a tension I find myself wrestling with in regard to my theological principles or whatever you want to call them. I don't want to continue derailing the thread, or be too harsh, but you are always going to be working against an inherently patriarchal root and trying to manage an incoherent foundational text when you are trying to renovate Christianity. Or one of the other Abrahamic faiths, too.
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Feb 19, 2020 06:26
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lmao at believing there’s some kind of just and loving operator. The only god is nature, and it does not gently caress around.
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Feb 19, 2020 07:27
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Ralph Hurley posted:I used to see a church called Church of Christ, Scientist. I couldn’t help but picture a lab coat wearing Jesus peering through a microscope. Lol They are a thing in Massachusetts but I think they're in precipitous decline. iirc refusing medical treatment is their dealio.
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Feb 19, 2020 09:31
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Julius CSAR posted:lmao at believing there’s some kind of just and loving operator. The only god is nature, and it does not gently caress around. Actually I saw God once he looked down at me from the sky and said "Oh I completely forgot about this planet how are you guys doing." and I told him that it's beat af down here and he just shrugged and vanished into the void.
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Feb 19, 2020 09:37
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Julius CSAR posted:lmao at believing there’s some kind of just and loving operator. The only god is nature, and it does not gently caress around. Plenty of belief systems that agree with this tbf. Belief is not necessarily hierarchical and I totally agree with Pulvis that, at its best, faith can motivate people to think of the world beyond themselves and develop more altruistic or rewarding value systems. Problem as I see it is that the word 'religion' is loaded with associations of top-down control and closed-minded thinking when it has been and can be totally divorced from that.
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Feb 19, 2020 10:30
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Modern Christianity is pretty much the biggest roadblock to religion being any kind of positive force in the world.
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Feb 19, 2020 10:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Modern Christianity is pretty much the biggest roadblock to religion being any kind of positive force in the world. That is an extremely American centric point of view. Modern Christianity isn't even in the same ball park as Islam, when it comes to being a regressive force for the societies they are most prevalent in.
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Feb 19, 2020 12:06
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in general humanity will never, ever, ever get better as long as enough people value symbols & narrative above reality.
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Feb 19, 2020 13:18
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yes we just need to learn how to perceive reality directly instead of it being interpreted by our brain, then everything will be just fine
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Feb 19, 2020 14:11
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If any of you manage to rehabilitate the spiritual tirefire that is Abrahamic religions then might I suggest reclaiming the swastika as your next project?
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Feb 19, 2020 14:31
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Mozi posted:yes we just need to learn how to perceive reality directly instead of it being interpreted by our brain, then everything will be just fine i do not recommend this using advanced meditation and breathing techniques I've been able to stare into naked reality it was full of demons and my retinas got burned off posting this via speech to text
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Feb 19, 2020 14:35
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Mozi posted:yes we just need to learn how to perceive reality directly instead of it being interpreted by our brain, then everything will be just fine altough in fairness, if we could perceive reality directly we'd come up with a dumbshit narrative excuse to turn it off like we do those bits.
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Feb 19, 2020 14:46
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Saint Drogo posted:if only our brains came with built-in bits for objectivity, self-awareness & empathy for other people's experience to counter these problems. well really we do have those bits, but we also have competing bits that encourage a selfish narrative and worldview. and the world the way it exists certainly encourages the latter more than the former you might say that humans are a land of contrasts
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Feb 19, 2020 14:53
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Mozi posted:well really we do have those bits, but we also have competing bits that encourage a selfish narrative and worldview. and the world the way it exists certainly encourages the latter more than the former
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Feb 19, 2020 15:18
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all i'm saying is having empathy and compassion is also a story
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Feb 19, 2020 15:37
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Grevling posted:i do not recommend this using advanced meditation and breathing techniques I've been able to stare into naked reality it was full of demons and my retinas got burned off posting this via speech to text Have you tried using a BFG
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Feb 19, 2020 15:47
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Mozi posted:all i'm saying is having empathy and compassion is also a story
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Feb 19, 2020 15:57
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it means that they like to gently caress their king james bible and cum in it
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Feb 19, 2020 16:49
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Saint Drogo posted:i'd call it a product of the objective truth that other people are as important as us/experience the world the same way.but i get hung up on this stuff lol i think you can believe both that the essential nature of the universe is love and that there is no real fundamental meaning to anything other than what we as humans ascribe to it
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Feb 19, 2020 16:57
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I don't want to continue derailing the thread, or be too harsh, but you are always going to be working against an inherently patriarchal root and trying to manage an incoherent foundational text when you are trying to renovate Christianity. Or one of the other Abrahamic faiths, too. Eh just gunna lean into this derail  I hear what u say about Christianity being built on patriarchy and this that and the other lovely thing, but I kinda end up at an impasse here. Say I'm coming from a place where I want religious community in my life, what are the other options? Dipping into Eastern faiths, mostly ppl stick to Buddhism, which I think I know enough to say is also built or at least partially built on some equally lovely foundation - religion tends to survive when it supports the state, or the state finds a way to fix the religion to make it more palatable for capitalism/etc. Also it's distinctly not mine (white English speaking American) and I feel less apt to want to play pick and choose with another cultures traditions.. it would take years to get to the point of understanding them enough to even begin to do that in a way that is respectful, if it even can be done, and also then I'm still gunna be that white Buddhist lol What everyone else I know does is get into very modern, young religious stone soup. Wicca/taro/modern herbalism/astrology/gay faerie witchcraft/that whole dish. I think it satisfies the same itch for them but drat the whole thing is super constructed. For the people it works for, that's great, for me, it really seems to be missing the longevity that grants symbolism the deep rich kinda meaning that old religion has. Speaking of old time relijun.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdGud-KdpTM Anyways why not pick at our traditions and find something worth bringing into our gay new world? I mean Jesus is pretty faggy tbh Also this is what everyone says about marriage as well, but fuc it I wanna marry my primary partner and have a little ceremony and make a joint bank account even if marriage traditionally exists to give male supremacy legal status.
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Feb 19, 2020 22:58
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Pekinduck posted:They are a thing in Massachusetts but I think they're in precipitous decline. iirc refusing medical treatment is their dealio. Christian Science churches may be in decline, but the kooky nonsense contained therein is timeless and continues to find an audience. (See, e.g.: Jewish presidential candidate Marianne Williamson, or any antivax group on Facebook.)
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Feb 19, 2020 23:02
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Strategic Tea posted:2000 years of theology, oooooorrrr I could listen to an amateur hour lawyer tell me how a podunk pyramid scheme in the rural US has discovered what Jesus really meant all along... This is my headache with so called "bible believing" churches. They end up arguing over theological concepts that the Catholic Church put to bed 1300 years ago. I mean, argument you can think of has already been covered.
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Feb 19, 2020 23:08
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Sprue posted:Eh just gunna lean into this derail Why do you feel like you need a “religious community” in your life, as opposed to just a “community”?
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Feb 19, 2020 23:25
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church is just people lying to themselves. over and over and over
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Feb 19, 2020 23:26
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I wish I had enough faith to believe in God or whatever, but I don't. It must be nice to believe in something. 
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Feb 19, 2020 23:30
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1redflag posted:Why do you feel like you need a “religious community” in your life, as opposed to just a “community”? And if you really need a religious aspect in your life, why not make up your own instead of joining one that you know for a fact had child rapists running it?
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Feb 19, 2020 23:31
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1redflag posted:Why do you feel like you need a “religious community” in your life, as opposed to just a “community”? Likewise, I feel that all the people proposing Christian communism should cut out the middleman and admit their ideology isn't divinely ordained. I don't agree with it, but if I did, surely it is the creation of a better world (ie: being right) that is important? If you are alleviating human suffering, there should be no need to appeal to a deity to justify yourself. Now we're cooking with humanism!
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Feb 19, 2020 23:39
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Rad-daddio posted:In my area, there's a lot of churches that are in old strip malls and auto shops. It's like some tent revival poo poo like can't you rent god safe space in a place that doesn't suck? Way to honor your lord and savior, assholes. We're getting weird stuff like this too. Churches that use high school gyms one week then an abandoned warehouse the next, an empty airplane hanger the next. Do people just wake up on a Sunday and they're calling their pastor up and it's like "Yo, where we praying today?? The food court @ the west side mall? Cool. See you there!"
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Feb 20, 2020 00:59
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I've always wondered about those. Where I live there seems to be plenty of empty churches you'd think they could use.
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Feb 20, 2020 01:12
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Buildings require upkeep costs. Sometimes it makes more financial sense to meet in a public or rented space. Edit: It's basically a huge luxury when you think about it, to have whole building that's only used for a few hours a week. TOOT BOOT fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Feb 20, 2020 |
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Feb 20, 2020 01:21
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Hector Delgado posted:I wish I had enough faith to believe in God or whatever, but I don't. It must be nice to believe in something. When I was a kid and had my first existential crisis regarding the inveitabiliy of death I tried my ABSOLUTE hardest to believe in the Christian God because I desperately wanted that comfort, that feeling of certainty and superiority. Even at 9 years old it didn't work, I wasn't able to fool myself. I went through the motions for like a week or two, realized it wasn't gonna happen and eventually found a different tactic for dealing with he concept of mortality (lusting for death).
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Feb 20, 2020 01:31
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I just kind of assume the more generic a church's name is, the more cult-y it is. Bible Church: Possibly a little culty, depeding on location. Jesus Church: May give off a "Stepford" vibe. Some ok people, but may also disagree with parts of modern medicine. God Church: Probably affiliated with something like the Elan School Christian Church: This one's actually just one dude and his dozens of sisterdaughterwives Who What Now posted:And if you really need a religious aspect in your life, why not make up your own instead of joining one that you know for a fact had child rapists running it? 
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Feb 20, 2020 01:41
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Whoria Discordia posted:I just kind of assume the more generic a church's name is, the more cult-y it is. What if there was a church that was just called... "The Church" Actually that does sound SUPER culty. I get this vibe that members of The Church would follow their self-ordained prophet / reincarnation of Jesus into mass suicide. Haven't looked it up on Wikipedia
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Feb 20, 2020 03:22
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TOOT BOOT posted:Buildings require upkeep costs. Sometimes it makes more financial sense to meet in a public or rented space. Yeah I'm pretty charmed by churchs in very humble places. When I lived in the South it was common to see poor primarily black congregations in strip malls, with big glass windows like it was a store front, and nothing inside but some folding chairs and a plastic table. I think the church I went to as a child that used to meet in a senior center is in a strip mall now. We used to keep our chalice and candle sticks in a cardboard box in the attic of the senior center. I mean, if there is a god, they'd be in the strip mall too, not just a bunch of fancy old stone buildings with stained glass. To quote the poet jonny hobo "Well if I found God anywhere, it would be by the tracks Face down in a box car, forty in both hands And when I find God there, we'll just sit and roll some top"
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Feb 20, 2020 03:50
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Who What Now posted:And if you really need a religious aspect in your life, why not make up your own instead of joining one that you know for a fact had child rapists running it? There isn't any particular not to, if you happen to be into that stuff. I guess I have an anecdote that's kinda related to this tangent. A number of years ago at an anarchist book fair a fairly well known in the circle writer/thinker Bob Black proclaimed that we, being good anarchist, should burn churchs (you know, metaphorically) and someone in the audience asked what about black churches and Bob (white dude despite the last name) said "yes, burn ALL churchs". And then I guess someone walked him outside later and punched him in the face or something for being a racist, I dunno, it's been a while. I'm trying to remember why I wanted to share this story... Oh yeah, anyways, I think there are many good critiques of Christianity but I think it's important to remember that for tons of ppl it has been a very important institution for positive societal change. That's why ppl for mad when Bob said to burn all churchs, because black churchs have been burnt by whites before, because they were such key centers for organizing during the civil Rights movement, and before that, for black slavery abolitionists. They're important, socially important, very many communities. And it's totally okay if you personally don't want to have anything to do with them, but I don't think humanism is a perfect replacement for religion for everyone.
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Feb 20, 2020 04:03
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That churches are socially important in a lot of areas can be viewed as a symptom of the problem. In many parts of the United States you are pretty much guaranteed to be treated as a second class citizen at best, and a pariah at worst, if you don't pledge fealty to one church or another. Religion tends to be viewed with a lot of special pleading fallacies already taken for granted. That one particular mythology from the ancient Middle East should be taken seriously in the 21st century seems like a fairly absurd proposition on the face of it, but here we are.
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Feb 20, 2020 05:42
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Sprue posted:And it's totally okay if you personally don't want to have anything to do with them, but I don't think humanism is a perfect replacement for religion for everyone. You said a lot of good stuff about how there are some churches that have done some institutional good, and that's fine. I don't want to burn down churches. I don't advocate kicking open doors and shaking people while screaming "God is dead and nihilism rules the universe" even though it's objectively true. BUT. If you're already at the point where you're saying "Well I don't believe in the Christian Church as an institution I just feel that it has something SPIRITUAL within it" then you're already so far removed from any religious movement that ever had any sort of positive effect on society that you might as well just make up your own thing that doesn't have all the baggage that comes with the label.
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Feb 20, 2020 05:55
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