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On dirt, you can grow weed.
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Feb 18, 2020 03:57
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2house2fly posted:It's an interesting aspect of the setting that there is a machine which kills you, that everyone uses to get to work For real. Star Trek's entire premise was trying to put human ideals under a microscope and to attempt to provoke thought and discussion via their presentations. The transporter problem is this fascinating problematic idea that they never even intended to happen and it actually cuts directly to the heart of several very important unanswered questions regarding the definition of death and what precisely makes up a person's identity. By talking about it even if we can't come to any better understanding than we had going in we are still doing our part to experience the legacy star trek hoped it could leave us with. I know it'd be easier if they had just written the premise so that we never actually had to bring it up in these terms but the questions would still have been out there and eventually the human race would have gotten around to pondering it. That we've hit such a deep mine of ideas because we all watched a pajama pants spaceship show from the sixties is a blessing and we should be looking at it as a blessing imo. Edit- cleaned up my work a bit
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Mar 1, 2020 22:58
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Mar 2, 2020 20:30
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You know our researchers are showing some promising results in the field of Trilithium research.
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Mar 4, 2020 03:34
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Hodgepodge posted:Researching some scenes from the episode where Data's right to self-determination is put on trial, it's kind of funny how obvious it is that the admiral lady set the whole thing up so she could be the one who got to make the landmark ruling in favour of android rights. I've always felt the setup to this episode was amazingly strong but the payoff is basically Picard in court saying 'Well are you SURE he isn't conscious? Are you sure you're suuuuuuuure????" And that wins the case.
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Mar 4, 2020 12:17
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Finger Prince posted:Are you really asking why TV writers write stories audiences can relate to? Far be it from me to give SMG any credit but I think what he is trying to ask is why we as audiences can relate to the circumstances of a family member with untreated heart disease. To which the answer is life sucks for most of the humans on the earth right now and so we have a lot of untreated heart disease going around.
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Mar 4, 2020 23:23
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For some reason they all look at me funny when I suggest the pope should be cannonized.
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Mar 5, 2020 03:30
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Here's to the finest crew in starfleet!
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Mar 5, 2020 22:23
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ruddiger posted:Are his employees hobbyists too? In the future do people wait tables and peel potatoes for the sheer hobby of it? What with how star trek portrays the nobility of human work ethic, probably.
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Mar 6, 2020 04:24
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Yeah it sure does suck that star trek had to pay lip service to that poo poo just to get by with american audiences. gently caress, House MD sucked on that same dick from time to time and the main character was hella atheist. Edit- I had to edit this three times to get the swears just right
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Mar 6, 2020 20:22
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Which episode is this specifically? I wanna get in on this horse action!
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Mar 7, 2020 19:59
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I've got the episode open now.
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Mar 7, 2020 23:27
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I watched the entire sequence So I kinda expected to take the opposite position here but Picard clearly asks Troi if she'd like it if they whipped up a horse for her that wasn't difficult at all to ride. Also since picard specifies earlier to the computer he'd like to control the beast himself that tells me most likely even if she were complete poo poo at horseback riding they probably could have programmed her a horse that you'd have to be downright trying to fall off of. I can't really say that's definitive but her direct response to picard's question of whether it would be possible for her to join him if the beast were gentle and easy to handle is "No, I prefer a mode of transportation that doesn't have a mind of its own." (thank you 2house2fly for the transcript to save me some typing), which to me directly reads as Troi trying to say that the issue is not whether she felt capable of riding the horse but instead that the issue would indeed be the thoughts of the holo-creature. In between they talk about raising cats and how that caused a rift with Troi's mom but it really doesn't seem to have much to do with the greater context of the discussion of how betazoids prefer to get around without using animals. Guys, I think I'm forced to agree with SMG on this one.
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Mar 7, 2020 23:38
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One thing I can say with certainty is in the latest episode of Picard, Troi looks at basically the most advanced android ever built and says "I can't read her", which makes sense. While I can find no compelling explanation in my own mind for why Troi wouldn't ride a holo-horse I can say that a holo-deck seems to me to be less prepared to adequately create artifical life than whatever the android building doctor guy did to build Vashj. Though I can't ever say definitively because I wasn't in the writers room on the day when they wrote that TNG episode with the horse I can say that a world where psychics can't read the emotions of robots or otherwise non-biological life-forms makes a great deal of sense to me.
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Mar 9, 2020 00:00
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CainFortea posted:She has no interest in horses. Not every woman does ya know. Good enough for me!
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Mar 9, 2020 11:08
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:For all we know his restaurant is a holodeck and his guests are the only real people. A much sadder possibility is nobody wants his cooking and he just works his grandson to death every day feeding AI routines that are programmed to be bitchy restaraunt goers.
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Mar 9, 2020 14:01
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I think we could have a long thoughtful discussion re: responsibility to act and where a society with powerful but ultimately finite and sometimes clumsy or untested means to enact positive change should draw the line as far as holding themselves accountable to anyone they chance upon who happens to be about to go extinct forever.
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Mar 9, 2020 21:54
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I mean I think starfleet is genuinely trying it's best not to overlook other species I mean Picard tried to negotiate with a giant crystal that ate entire planets worth of life-forms iirc. If anyone could suggest to me how they might be more accommodating I'd love to hear it!
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Mar 10, 2020 00:06
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CainFortea posted:Takes some serious gymnastics to complain about how starfleet's non-interference is also imperialism. To me, the interesting thing we could be asking ourselves here is how could starfleet approach problems differently and achieve better outcomes. If non-interference can be criticized as a selfish behavior and interference would likely mirror our sordid history of colonialism and cultural whitewashing then what would those who suggest that the prime directive is a selfish or an otherwise flawed policy suggest the federation do instead. How can we adjust to try and do the right thing for each species we encounter regardless of technological development?
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Mar 10, 2020 23:55
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CaptainSkinny posted:First you breathe in. Then comes a tricky part, you have to exhale. Also I personally didn't think this post was very helpful.
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Mar 10, 2020 23:57
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CainFortea posted:I don't think any of you knows what annexation means. Never!
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Mar 12, 2020 00:33
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Zane posted:what injustices At one point the federation might have mined some resources in the same planetary system as an uncontacted pre-warp society and so long as nothing within the grand cosmic plan demands that the pre-warp society go extinct or blow itself up or whatever eventually they are going to be puttering around their star system wondering "what in the everliving gently caress happened to our rich dilithium reserves sitting right here on the moon of this gas giant right where we had left it?" and then the answer is going to be "it all got stolen by the federation to power Janeway's coffee pot"
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Mar 13, 2020 01:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So I’m checking more old episodes and, in this one, Picard teaches a Bronze Age society atheism and promotes Federation ideology to them because it’s ‘more natural’ than belief in God. If you're talking about the same episode I'm thinking of Picard accidentally becomes a godlike figure to a pre warp society because he violated the prime directive hardcore. Well actually his crew did without him telling them to but it's the same thing. Then the alien society is gonna kill a captured member of his crew and his big scheme to rescue them without revealing anymore about the federation gets completely hosed up. Trapped in a corner Picard lets one of the pre-warp aliens onto his spaceship. He explains he is not a god, just a very powerful person. He explains that his star ship is not unlike the bow carried by the pre-warp alien and that to earlier (non-bow having) generations of the pre-warp society even our bow-haver could appear as a mysterious and godlike entity. She doesn't get it. He explains this directly to her face in the simplest terms possible but the person simply isn't capable of understanding. She is convinced that given the nature of Picard's ship and his obvious power to cure the dying that he should be capable of reversing death as well, much to Picard's horror. Eventually Picard gets shot with a bow by someone who refuses to believe he is a mortal like anyone else and only after that does it become clear to the society that Picard is no god at all. This story might as well be the poster child for why SMG's suggestion that the federation should go around uplifting and granting voting power to any society within their borders is a bad idea.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:12
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I will say that the way the episode has to dance around 'well THIS society is primitive and clings to their ancient beliefs that they really should be outgrowing by now' while simultaneously screaming out subtextually 'but PLEASE don't notice we're talking about you, Christians' is a pretty fun needle to watch them thread.
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Mar 15, 2020 11:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:While those are some of the plot points, you’re misremembering really vital parts of the episode. (The title is “Who Watches the Watchers”, for reference. SMG I'm gonna go over this post in more detail later but impressively almost every assertion you've made in it is outright wrong, other than the direct quotes.
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Mar 15, 2020 20:27
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What SMG claimed and why it is wrongquote:"The Mintakan people Picard talks to ultimately have no real problem believing anything he’s talking about, save for a single ‘crazed fundamentalist’ by the name of Liko. Then, as you note, even Liko has his mind changed pretty quickly." No actually. The "Mintakan people" do not believe picard. Even after his best faith attempt at explaining how his "powers" are merely technology she says NURIA: You have shown me such generosity. I wish my people could share in it. Six Mintakans died in a flood last winter. Four of them children. Would you bring them back to life? PICARD: That is not in my power. NURIA: Why? You restored Liko's life. Did the six who died offend you in some way? Did I offended you? Should I have ordered the death of Troi? Please, you must tell me if there's anything I can do to change your mind. PICARD: I've failed to get through to you, haven't I? Despite all my efforts. Please note that last sentence because it's the one where picard points out that she does actually have a problem believing him. Because she can not comprehend him for what he is, a mortal. Furthermore this exchange OJI: Nuria can't be found. No one knows where she's gone. LIKO: Hali, any sign of Palmer or Riker? HALI: They have escaped us. We searched everywhere. OJI: What do we do now, father? LIKO: We must do as the Picard wishes. Punish those responsible. FENTO: Nuria would not allow us to LIKO: Nuria isn't here. We can't wait. (Liko gestures to Hali for his bow) Note that Hali gives Niko the bow. Hali is ready to believe Niko and we have no reason to believe that the rest of the Mintakans would not follow suit.  Pictured above, Niko slowly convincing the people around him to do something very very bad using only his religious fanaticism and their general susceptibility to the superstitions of their elders. quote:"After a few brief conversations, and showing off his blood, Picard has fully “non-interfered” with these people by teaching them the following: This is true enough except for the way you phrase it. Picard is not under any guise by explaining these things that he is "non-interfering" RIKER: Masquerading as a god? PICARD: Absolutely out of the question. The Prime Directive BARRON: Has already been violated. The damage is done. All we can do now is minimise it. PICARD: By sanctioning their false beliefs? BARRON: By giving them guidelines. Letting them know what the Overseer expects of them. PICARD: Doctor Barron, I cannot, I will not, impose a set of commandments on these people. To do so violates the very essence of the Prime Directive. BARRON: Like it or not, we have rekindled the Mintakans' belief in the Overseer. RIKER: And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion? BARRON: It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos. PICARD: Horrifying. Doctor Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No! We will find some way to undo the damage we've caused. Number One, tell me about this group's leader. Do note the part where Picard recognizes that any solution will require some degree of interference due to the fact that the prime directive had already been broken. He is not under any kind of illusion about what he is doing nor is he doing it out of some kind of paternalism or to steal their resources. The only reason I bring this up is that in prior conversations you have switched from an argument in which the races being studied are being intentionally deprived of the resource rights to their solar system but when that stops being a convenient reason for the prime directive to be bad it becomes about how the federation isn't giving these people enough agency. Again this entire episode basically exists to put a boot straight to your entire view of the prime directive by pointing out that when given agency to decide whether 'The Picard' (God, in the eyes of these pre-warp people) is a mortal or not their only means of testing it requires direct evidence of his mortality. Hey? What would have happened to Picard if Liko had been a better shot? He'd be dead. The one thing the Federation really can't fix. It wasn't because picard was wrong to attempt to follow the prime directive that he lived it was just dumb luck and frankly I think the exact same circumstances apply on a societal scale with regard to Mintakan and Federation relations, specifically it might be possible nobody has to die in order for both societies to come to a mutual and peaceful understanding but if that's the case it would be moreso to dumb luck than anything else. quote:"But anyways, there are two main points that are missing from your analysis: quote:"2) Why is Picard treating these guys differently from the Bolaarans? The only answer is blunt racism. Wrong wrong wrong. Picard has major issue with teaching them federation ideology. PICARD: We were once as you are now. To study you is to understand ourselves. FENTO: But why did you have to hide yourself from us? LIKO: Because their presence would affect us, just as it affected me. PICARD: It is our highest law that we shall not interfere with other cultures. OJI: Then revealing yourselves was an accident. PICARD: Oh, yes, and now we must leave you. OJI: Why? There's so much you can teach us. PICARD: But that, too, would be interference. You must progress in your own way. NURIA: So we will. You have taught us there is nothing beyond our reach. PICARD: Not even the stars. Picard himself says in this exchange that he would not have interfered at all given the choice. The resemblence to Vulcans has nothing to do with it. They could have called this society "proto ferengi" and it wouldn't matter. If Picard had gotten himself into a mess of trouble in exactly the same way as he did here he likely would have solved it in precisely the same manner, because he had no other choice that wouldn't cause the death of his crew. Edit- Fixed my quote wrapping reignofevil fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 20:58
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Ferrinus posted:It absolutely does not do that, because the Federation does treat those cultures like playthings. Specifically, it treats them like collectable Funko Pops which must under no circumstances be removed from their original packaging lest their value goes down. I don't disagree with your main point, which is that the federation are being dicks for not being willing to offer help when an entire society is gonna go extinct and whatnot but surely you can see why it might be a little silly to say that the federation is treating people like playthings by leaving them alone entirely to try and preserve their society. The implication being that the way to not treat people like playthings would be to take them out of the box and, well.... play with them...
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Mar 15, 2020 21:12
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Personally I take the viewpoint that the federation is spying on all of these pre-warp cultures because someday they would like to know enough about how a society like the Mintakans will progress in order to eventually develop a plan of contact in which the federation has reason to believe it is highly likely that the pre-warp culture will both maintain their unique sense of identity and simultaneously genuinely benefit from the manner of contact. A perfect example of what I would call a failure for a pre-warp society to "genuinely benefit" from federation contact would be Niko himself. If not for the actions of the federation Niko would be dead and so he indisputably benefited from the contact however because it was done in a clumsy manner the federation accidentally woke the sleeping dragon of religious fundamentalism and it had disastrous secondhand consequences which only were mitigated because the federation was very very lucky. Now I recognize that the prime directive does not make any argument in favor of what I am saying here. It is spoken of in absolute terms like it is meant to never change and I will be more than happy to admit that at this time I have no backing for my claim that the federation would like to or someday even might abandon the prime directive once they have learned enough to believe they could do genuine good without accidentally incurring disastrous unintended consequences. I'll happily admit that it will likely take the federation generations or even millennia to have both the technological and sociological understanding necessary to believe they can do these things. But ultimately I do believe that not only do the events of Who Watches the Watchers demonstrate that the federation are not yet ready to take on that responsibility and that they are correct to some extent to believe that their attempting to alter a society in order to make it better fit the picture of what they believe would be a net good would be very dangerous even when it should seem like a no brainer like "would dying of a plague be good or bad for these people" and I genuinely believe that when the federation feels that it could even possibly make those kinds of decisions that they will reconsider the prime directive and via the same legislative process that they passed the law they shall rewrite or revoke it. Again this is mostly just founded in my general understanding of how the federation tries to mitigate harm and solve problems, they themselves as of TNG fully believe that the prime directive is sacrosanct and that some kind of cosmic plan is more important than morality and I disagree with the federation on that point but they are not wrong to recognize that even their best intentions can and do lead to disaster. Edit- Moved some words around to make this flow better reignofevil fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 15, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2020 21:50
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I don't wanna keep leaning on who watches the watchers but for serious here they try exactly that and it doesn't work. Even if we want to look at that as the writers injecting their own bias into how cultural contacts work and we want to focus on how in our world today when one society with advanced technology contacts the other there has often been a very quick advancement on the part of the society who does not have the advanced technology, within the fictional world of star trek they gave it a non-racist best faith effort to explain that they are no different and no better than the Mintakans. The federation tries to explain in fact that they are essentially the exact same as the Mintakans except their manufacturing process and understanding of the underlying physics of the universe just happens to be more complete. And it doesn't work because the Mintakans have no true point of reference and if you can't relate to knowledge it is very very difficult to genuinely comprehend it. Again no racism is necessary for this were the federation members and the Mintakans in a swapped position culturally the members of the federation would have just as much trouble understanding this perspective.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:07
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I'll definitely concede that TNG fails to hold to its convictions. The fact that the enterprise crew or the federation as a whole never has that kind of response to what are genuinely gods does make the episodes in which the members of the federation are regarded as deities seem much more insincere and that the naivety the Mintakans are portrayed as having could very much be looked at as a racist portrayal in that light.
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Mar 15, 2020 22:20
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SMG you can dance around the idea of how 'quickly' Niko is convinced but you are deliberately avoiding how he was convinced and the direct consequences.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:18
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Also I can't help but note how your entire tirade about Picard being a christ figure was quietly dropped in favor of some 'I'm a god because of how I can't revive the dead' point. Please try to do better I very much enjoy this kind of discussion because I think that testing and experimenting with the federation's philosophy was exactly the point of TNG, but if I don't feel like you are actually trying to engage in good faith or that you are actually going to defend your positions I'm gonna be inclined to withdraw from the discussion.
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Mar 16, 2020 00:21
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One last thing, little bit of culture for the thread here. But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26
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Mar 16, 2020 00:32
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I'll think on that and see what I come around to. Thank you very much for clarifying I really do appreciate it.
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Mar 16, 2020 03:08
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2house2fly posted:That makes a kind of sense, the dude who basically started the Federation did so after an experience with time travelers trying to stop the past from changing. In Deep Space Nine there are Time Cops who if you travel back in time they grill you when you get back to make sure you didn't change anything What a hilarious concept! By changing the past the time cops would very likely be entirely ignorant of any manner of change because anything that changed would just be 'history' from their perspective!
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Mar 17, 2020 13:43
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I dunno if the assertion that the Mintakans wouldn't mouth off to Picard holds water considering they had already shot him with a bow and suffered no real consequences.
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Mar 18, 2020 07:06
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Ferrinus posted:"They" hadn't. One of them had. A wizard showing up to gently caress around with you is going to provoke an entire range of different responses, from murderous defiance to outright worship, but what it absolutely 100% won't do is leave things as they are. That is, after all, the basis of the Prime Directive - no loving around, because there will inevitably be consequences outside Starfleet's control. No matter what, Picard has left behind a society, soon to be a planet, of people who know for a fact that invisible spacemen could be watching them at any time. Okay one of them had. So perhaps one of them could mouth off to picard much like how one of them shot him. I mean I could just as easily point out how the Mintakan's had been shown to be unwilling to prevent the religious fanatic from shooting picard, I could point out how the moment where the one Mintakan handed Niko the bow it suddenly went from being a singular person acting to a group action which would absolutely justify the word they but honestly I don't think it changes anything the fact of the matter is that mouthing off to someone is really not something you worry much about when you've already shot that same person and he wasn't overly upset with you. I think if any one of them had wanted to mouth off they absolutely would have.
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Mar 18, 2020 20:48
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 Pictured above: Very possibly terrified Mintakans. Note the big goofy smile on the one in the background. That same Mintakan would moments later offer Picard an honorary gift. Probably some Mintakan way of saying "gently caress off invisible sky wizard we're never going to be able to take a poo poo without fear again" 
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Mar 18, 2020 20:57
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Ferrinus posted:There is a wide range of possible responses to being visited by a godlike being, and those responses are only loosely connected to whether you actually trust what the being is saying to you after the fact. Like, let's say they not only didn't believe that Picard (or the rest of Picard's society) would stop spying on them, but they were willing to tell that to him to his face, demanding that he cease all study of their planet. And let's further imagine that he says okay, wish granted, I solemnly swear that neither I nor anyone else from space will ever invisibly spy on you ever again. (Note that this does not happen in the episode; he does not, AFAIK, make any promise to cease study as opposed to active interference) Okay sure but let's imagine for a second that actually they don't mind at all and honestly given the general lack of physical evidence there is good reason to believe that within a few generations nobody would even be able to prove it was more than a fairy tale. I don't necessarily mean this statement as 'actually these are the facts' but I mean heck while we're imagining, why not?
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Mar 18, 2020 22:24
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So to me it seems like we have what could be one very bad outcome and one probably decent outcome and the only real evidence we have to go on is that they sure seem to be smiling about the whole situation at the end of the episode.
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Mar 18, 2020 22:50
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