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Oysters Autobio
Mar 13, 2017


Zigmidge posted:

Good lord nobody gives a poo poo about any of this. You bought into a beta, gamer.

Lmao, right, an 8 year old beta

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mechaet
Jan 4, 2013

Insufferable measure of firewood

I think Eve Online probably solved for RMT issues the best way, by selling the ingame currency directly themselves, at a price that makes it unprofitable to compete with. I'm not sure if that solution would apply to Tarkov, but it would get BSG additional resources. In-game money doesn't buy the requisite skill to make effective use of it. A full-on juggernaut can still be laid low by a single well-placed Mosin round.

The changes BSG have made to try to combat RMT have an unfortunate side effect of putting limits on the entire playerbase to solve for what is probably less than half a percent of the playerbase. I get that punishing 100% of the population for the sins of the 0.5% isn't a foreign concept to Russians, but in general around the world this is seen as a Bad Approach.

I think if they made the secure container read-only during the raid (you can use items in the secure container but can't put anything inside of it), it would drastically change the profitability of accounts run by RMTers. Meaning higher RMT prices, resulting in fewer RMT purchases, resulting in less RMT suppliers since they'll move off to whatever game they can make better profit/hr on. I think the rest of the changes up to now have been solid attempts at solving this issue, but I think the time spent is time wasted until we get much closer to release. Set the secure to read-only, undo the rest of the changes, if people want to risk losing millions of rubles RMT trading in-raid, let them. Caveat Emptor and all that. I remember a time before the Flea Market when folks used to trade in factory, and more than a few times I wiped out their trading party and skated off into the extract with items cases full of quest items and roubles.

InevitableCheese
Jul 10, 2015

quite a pickle you've got there


mechaet posted:

The changes BSG have made to try to combat RMT have an unfortunate side effect of putting limits on the entire playerbase to solve for what is probably less than half a percent of the playerbase.


mechaet posted:


I think if they made the secure container read-only during the raid (you can use items in the secure container but can't put anything inside of it), it would drastically change the profitability of accounts run by RMTers.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

mechaet posted:

I think Eve Online probably solved for RMT issues the best way, by selling the ingame currency directly themselves, at a price that makes it unprofitable to compete with. I'm not sure if that solution would apply to Tarkov, but it would get BSG additional resources. In-game money doesn't buy the requisite skill to make effective use of it. A full-on juggernaut can still be laid low by a single well-placed Mosin round.

The changes BSG have made to try to combat RMT have an unfortunate side effect of putting limits on the entire playerbase to solve for what is probably less than half a percent of the playerbase. I get that punishing 100% of the population for the sins of the 0.5% isn't a foreign concept to Russians, but in general around the world this is seen as a Bad Approach.

I think if they made the secure container read-only during the raid (you can use items in the secure container but can't put anything inside of it), it would drastically change the profitability of accounts run by RMTers. Meaning higher RMT prices, resulting in fewer RMT purchases, resulting in less RMT suppliers since they'll move off to whatever game they can make better profit/hr on. I think the rest of the changes up to now have been solid attempts at solving this issue, but I think the time spent is time wasted until we get much closer to release. Set the secure to read-only, undo the rest of the changes, if people want to risk losing millions of rubles RMT trading in-raid, let them. Caveat Emptor and all that. I remember a time before the Flea Market when folks used to trade in factory, and more than a few times I wiped out their trading party and skated off into the extract with items cases full of quest items and roubles.

of all the stupid ideas to gently caress the game to up to fight the RMT boogeyman this is the stupidest and most needlessly destructive, so its prob what they're gonna do

fennesz
Dec 29, 2008



hakimashou posted:

of all the stupid ideas to gently caress the game to up to fight the RMT boogeyman this is the stupidest and most needlessly destructive, so its prob what they're gonna do

In all seriousness, do you think BSG makes changes just because they hate it's users? Genuinely curious.

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012





fennesz posted:

In all seriousness, do you think BSG makes changes just because they hate it's users? Genuinely curious.

Yes. Nikitas grand vision will not be stopped by things such as 'fun'

ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Expecto Patronum! Expelliarmus! Abracadabra! Argh, none of these are working.
Oh well, fall back plan.
ROOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!


fennesz posted:

In all seriousness, do you think BSG makes changes just because they hate it's users? Genuinely curious.

To be perfectly fair, because as much as I love this game I do recognize it's faults, Nikita has said he wants the game to be as difficult as it can possibly be and he doesn't want players to have fun. Yes, he said that in jest, but there is also an inkling of truth to it. EFT is basically a game for sadists. This game basically started out with a few really hardcore players. Then there was this massive influx of players who started playing basically because they were given free poo poo and want more free poo poo (drops). There is this massive divide between hardcore players who side with Nikita and players who want it much easier, but still want the gains that come with a such a risk vs. reward style of gameplay.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

fennesz posted:

In all seriousness, do you think BSG makes changes just because they hate it's users? Genuinely curious.

No they get most of these ideas from their worst users.

Jarf
Jun 25, 2006

PLATINUM



Yo this game sucks!

Has a good raid

Yo this game is amazing!

Pornographic Memory
Dec 17, 2008


Jarf posted:

Yo this game sucks!

Has a good raid

Yo this game is amazing!

Me and my friend had both of these reactions to the same raid yesterday, we went to factory and bumped into another pmc duo 60 seconds in. He died immediately, while I killed both of them, then had to fend off some scavs while frantically patching myself up and looting bodies just to have ammo and meds to keep fighting before finally limping to gate 3 with no ammo except a partially depleted pistol mag. I come out with an SVD loaded with attachments and a nice chest rig/armor and 2 pmc and 4 scav kills, one of the most fun and intense raids for me so far. Meanwhile my friend called that his worst raid ever and was super tilted.

causticBeet
Mar 2, 2010

BIG VINCE COMIN FOR YOU

Selling currency works in MMOs like EVE because they are entirely different games with different checks and balances around what happens with that money once you use it. You can buy 10b worth of isk and not only is there a skill gap that still needs to be filled, but mechanical limitations due to ship balance and an overall sandbox environment that mitigates the p2w aspect. Sure you can buy stuff to make your ship objectively more powerful than another ship in your class, but your RMT autism chariot frigate will still get blasted by a t1 cruiser, and your 5b blops bs still gets smashed by a gang of 5 competent pilots in cruisers.

None of those exist in tarkov, and in general more expensive gear is just a flat out upgrade, so its just unmitigated pay to win.

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

please trigger warning any insults to billionaires or I swear I will tell you numbnuts about how progress in society REALLY gets done


causticBeet posted:

None of those exist in tarkov, and in general more expensive gear is just a flat out upgrade, so its just unmitigated pay to win.

Its exactly the same because as was already pointed out a naked Pestily with a Mosin would probably kill my geared out thick rear end 9 times out of 10. Gear is an advantage but you're not invincible.

fennesz
Dec 29, 2008



hakimashou posted:

No they get most of these ideas from their worst users.

I definitely will agree with them using streamers as the source of a lot of their changes is a terrible idea. I might not agree with the route they're going, but a lot of the changes they make do seem to be a genuine concerted effort to fight RMT/hacking. Which I appreciate the devs doing instead of just rolling over and letting the game die.

Cage Kicker
Feb 20, 2009

2nd Place at the Waupaca County Cuddle-Fest, again

Lipstick Apathy

They could have just banned taking money into the raid but they decided to entirely gently caress up instead, classic

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

They can have a good/harcore/realistic video game or they can have one without RMT in it

Kikas
Oct 30, 2012

EAT THE FISH!
EAT THE BERRIES!
TO THE CAVE!
HIBERNATE


AGDQ 2018 Awful Block Survivor



Oh hey they banned backpack stacking on your character, now you can only do it in your stash.

Umbreon
May 21, 2011


Kikas posted:

Oh hey they banned backpack stacking on your character, now you can only do it in your stash.

Nikita explained that it was to combat RMTers who would infinitely stack blackjacks and stuff streamer items into the excess spaces, making it super easy to just hand the buyer a single backpack with millions in loot they can just vendor

ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Expecto Patronum! Expelliarmus! Abracadabra! Argh, none of these are working.
Oh well, fall back plan.
ROOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!


This is honestly one thing I can't imagine you can complain about. It was always absurd thinking about 3-4 backpacks layered within one another, with items in the innermost one.

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



I can, I would just just stick my backpack stack on my pmc in an otherwise full inventory to do a scav run before cleaning things up. Also they made the change when my stack was on my character which bugged it out and I couldn't take them off my pmc and then when I went into raid and dumped all but one in a bush I couldn't use the one I didn't bush.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

Umbreon posted:

Nikita explained that it was to combat RMTers who would infinitely stack blackjacks and stuff streamer items into the excess spaces, making it super easy to just hand the buyer a single backpack with millions in loot they can just vendor

nikita needs an intervention his pathetic obsession with this poo poo is ruining his game

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007


We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.



hakimashou posted:

nikita needs an intervention his pathetic obsession with this poo poo is ruining his game

Well RMT is the reason for the hackers so there's logic to it.

It's pretty frequently though that you end up throwing a bag into yours when quickly looting a body that's in an open spot so this is annoying.

While in general I think their recent moves have been fine I agree they need to stop paying so much attention to streamers. They're important for promoting the game but they are a tiny proportion of the game. Pestily continually wants to make it harder for anyone that's not super geared to kill him.

ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Expecto Patronum! Expelliarmus! Abracadabra! Argh, none of these are working.
Oh well, fall back plan.
ROOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!


Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Well RMT is the reason for the hackers so there's logic to it.

It's pretty frequently though that you end up throwing a bag into yours when quickly looting a body that's in an open spot so this is annoying.

While in general I think their recent moves have been fine I agree they need to stop paying so much attention to streamers. They're important for promoting the game but they are a tiny proportion of the game. Pestily continually wants to make it harder for anyone that's not super geared to kill him.

Pestily is singularly the worst and the best proponent for this game. He wants the game to be as hardcore possible because he has, hands down, the most experience in this game, but promotes it at a level no other person does. He said something in the last podcast that I have hard time disagreeing with: he's joined the most raids of anyone in EFT, ever. I'm certain that's true, based off the amount of hours he's put into streaming it. At the same time, that is so far from the average player's experience in the game that his experience with it should be completely discounted when it comes to suggestions for the game. He isn't representing 50% of the player base, he's representing 0.001%. Because he's played so much, sure, he can pinpoint some aspects of gameplay that others can't. But when it comes to an overall player experience, he is so far from the mean. BSG needs to only listen to him when it comes to very fine, very precise models that are representative of his play time.

Umbreon
May 21, 2011


hakimashou posted:

nikita needs an intervention his pathetic obsession with this poo poo is ruining his game

No he doesn't. That's a valid change that affects nearly no one besides RMTers and you didn't need to be stacking backpacks in raids anyway.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Well RMT is the reason for the hackers so there's logic to it.

It's pretty frequently though that you end up throwing a bag into yours when quickly looting a body that's in an open spot so this is annoying.

While in general I think their recent moves have been fine I agree they need to stop paying so much attention to streamers. They're important for promoting the game but they are a tiny proportion of the game. Pestily continually wants to make it harder for anyone that's not super geared to kill him.

RMT is not 'the reason for the hackers'

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."

John Stamos

Upset Trowel

Umbreon posted:

No he doesn't. That's a valid change that affects nearly no one besides RMTers and you didn't need to be stacking backpacks in raids anyway.

It affects everyone who kept a stack of backpacks, moved it to their back, and removed the stack from the top one.

"no one besides RMTers"

1001 Arabian dicks
Sep 15, 2013

I am a shit poster who can't type. I contribute nothing of value to this or any other thread. Reading anything I post is pointless. I am too stupid to understand when I am wrong. Ignore me for your own sake.
100% WRONG -->

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Well RMT is the reason for the hackers so there's logic to it.

this is totally wrong

people literally spam hacks in tons of other games without monetary gain, BSG and battleye are just totally incompetent at implementing an anticheat

Umbreon
May 21, 2011


1001 Arabian dicks posted:

this is totally wrong

people literally spam hacks in tons of other games without monetary gain, BSG and battleye are just totally incompetent at implementing an anticheat

Many RMTers are also hackers because they can just buy accounts with the money they get from RMTing, use hacks to get loot before anybody else possibly can, and then kill any PMCs on maps that they're selling rubles to buyers on. They don't care if they get banned at all because they can just use the money they gain from hacking and RMTing rubles to buy more accounts and keep making a profit.

People have posted videos on Reddit of themselves killing hackers who were very clearly RMTing, holding infinitely stacked backpacks with tons of rare loot that was all found in raid and walking alongside other PMCs who had little to no gear on them.

Hackers will always be in every competitive game, yes, but EFT is particularly plagued by them because hackers have a financial incentive to hack here.

Umbreon fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jun 27, 2020

Umbreon
May 21, 2011


hakimashou posted:

It affects everyone who kept a stack of backpacks, moved it to their back, and removed the stack from the top one.

"no one besides RMTers"


You can still stack backpacks in your stash just fine.

Lemon
May 22, 2003



Does it only stop you stacking bags that are the same size? As I was able to put a T-Bag inside an MBSS in a scav run just now.

1001 Arabian dicks
Sep 15, 2013

I am a shit poster who can't type. I contribute nothing of value to this or any other thread. Reading anything I post is pointless. I am too stupid to understand when I am wrong. Ignore me for your own sake.
100% WRONG -->

Umbreon posted:

People have posted videos on Reddit of themselves killing hackers who were very clearly RMTing, holding infinitely stacked backpacks with tons of rare loot that was all found in raid

uhhhh i don't think you know how rmting works, i've killed normal people with huge stacks of backpacks because they accidentally brought it in, and legit players with items cases in labs.

there is so much wrong with your post i would recommend actually reading the wiki

1001 Arabian dicks fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jun 27, 2020

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

Listen to him, men. He's just crazy enough to do it!


Lemon posted:

Does it only stop you stacking bags that are the same size? As I was able to put a T-Bag inside an MBSS in a scav run just now.

It only affects the gigantic bags that are bigger on the inside. Unless you regularly find multiple blackjacks during a raid this has almost no effect on you.

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


Or, like someone else said, if you move your stash backpack stack to your character and back to put on a backpack

If stacking a billion backpacks and filling the 2x5 gaps with what, antique axes or thermometers or something in order to sell millions of rubles for rl money is a real thing that needs to be combatted, I feel like your game has bigger issues than you can solve with you can only wear one backpack!

InevitableCheese
Jul 10, 2015

quite a pickle you've got there


I think most of these changes wouldnt even be an issue if they had been the original design choice. Everyone is just so used to stacking backpacks that it makes it annoying.

At the same time, the issues behind a lot of these changes could be solved in a other ways than gameplay and convenience changes. I feel like BSG is throwing poo poo at the wall with tiny changes and seeing what sticks. If they really are working on the bigger backend changes to combat RMT and hacking, Im not sure why theyre wasting so much effort on these tiny changes.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


If they let me label backpacks I wouldn't have any instinct to stack them, and could actually use them for hold random crap in my stash. I mean I guess I can do that anyway but I will instantly forget what is where.

ChesterJT
Dec 28, 2003

please trigger warning any insults to billionaires or I swear I will tell you numbnuts about how progress in society REALLY gets done


Umbreon posted:

No he doesn't. That's a valid change that affects nearly no one besides RMTers and you didn't need to be stacking backpacks in raids anyway.

Please tell me what else I do and don't need to be doing in the game I paid for. What you mean is it doesn't affect you and you can't think outside your narrow viewpoint.

If I go into a raid with a scav backpack and I find another one I routinely dump everything into the new one and nest them. It's a free backpack. I stack them all the time. We don't need more people blindly defending Nikitas stupid decisions with the "well you shouldn't be doing that anyway" excuse.

ChesterJT fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 27, 2020

Umbreon
May 21, 2011


1001 Arabian dicks posted:

uhhhh i don't think you know how rmting works, i've killed normal people with huge stacks of backpacks because they accidentally brought it in, and legit players with items cases in labs.

there is so much wrong with your post i would recommend actually reading the wiki


Coincidentally neither one of those had millions of rubles in rare loot that was all found in raid when you killed them. Maybe you should learn how RMTing works.



ChesterJT posted:

Please tell me what else I do and don't need to be doing in the game I paid for. What you mean is it doesn't affect you and you can't think outside your narrow viewpoint.

If I go into a raid with a scav backpack and I find another one I routinely dump everything into the new one and nest them. It's a free backpack. I stack them all the time. We don't need more people blindly defending Nikitas stupid decisions with the "well you shouldn't be doing that anyway" excuse.

We don't need people blindly attacking Nikita either, it's just as ignorant and stupid. You can still do exactly as you described, this change only affects backpacks that are bigger on the inside than they are on the outside and thus can be infinitely stacked for as much storage as your carrying capacity can hold. You can still find that extra scav backpack in raid and stack it on your current one for the free backpack.

fennesz
Dec 29, 2008



ChesterJT posted:

Please tell me what else I do and don't need to be doing in the game I paid for. What you mean is it doesn't affect you and you can't think outside your narrow viewpoint.

If I go into a raid with a scav backpack and I find another one I routinely dump everything into the new one and nest them. It's a free backpack. I stack them all the time. We don't need more people blindly defending Nikitas stupid decisions with the "well you shouldn't be doing that anyway" excuse.

You can still do that. You just can't stack more than two of the same backpack that is larger than a berkut now.

The issue was beta backpacks give 5 more slots of space than it took up. So people RMT'ing would stack like 30 of them and fill each nook and cranny with high value loot. I do think it's funny the people most butt hurt about this change, being you and Dicks, clearly don't know what you're talking about.

ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Expecto Patronum! Expelliarmus! Abracadabra! Argh, none of these are working.
Oh well, fall back plan.
ROOOAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!


I was only speaking about the logic behind infinitely stacking backpacks within one another, but not losing space and how ridiculous that is in a military simulation style of game. I'm fine with it being done in your stash, but stacking them within one another while in a raid was always comical in this type of game. My comment was also only about the change and not the buggy implementation of the change. I realize some people encountered some bugs or whatever when they made the change and they were obviously affected. But I don't see a valid argument for allowing it in a raid and how this change has harmed the game even further. I think it just goes back to some people wanting this game to be more of a normal FPS and some people wanting it to be more of a simulation style of FPS.

causticBeet
Mar 2, 2010

BIG VINCE COMIN FOR YOU

theyre 100% gonna take away stash bag stacking too, they probably are just hesitant to do it mid wipe because 1. Wtf do you do with all the existing stacked bags and 2. Last time they changed a big inventory mechanic mid wipe Reddit reed loud enough to get the change rolled back

its a nice QOL thing but makes absolutely no sense and ultimately wont be all that annoying - bags are pretty cheap as is, and they will just go down in price when you cant keep 100 in your stash

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idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000


Just make backpacks 1:1 for space held/space displaced, it would affect all of what, two backpacks? I really don't want to deal with the tedious crap of buying a backpack every time I die or having to empty/fill poo poo. Its a stupid, meaningless change for stupid, meaningless reasons

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