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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


renoise kicks profound rear end I love it

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


im sure people swear by ableton or reaper or whatever but renoise is just so much more easily musical

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


i played around with it a little. i like the concept but i have a keyboard with the cursed mac touchbar, which means all f-key combos are out, which means i cant properly learn the sequencing

i have heard so much people say that tracker sequencing is the fastest way to work and being a day job keyboard toucher i am eager to use my mad typing skills for sequencing

i have tried it a couple of times which is really not even barely enough, and i wish it had a way to disassociate the loops for different tracks, i.e. you can have one track that loops each 16 steps, another that loops 20 steps. i am sure you can do that somehow, i just lack the skill

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


4lokos basilisk posted:

i played around with it a little. i like the concept but i have a keyboard with the cursed mac touchbar, which means all f-key combos are out, which means i cant properly learn the sequencing

i have heard so much people say that tracker sequencing is the fastest way to work and being a day job keyboard toucher i am eager to use my mad typing skills for sequencing

i have tried it a couple of times which is really not even barely enough, and i wish it had a way to disassociate the loops for different tracks, i.e. you can have one track that loops each 16 steps, another that loops 20 steps. i am sure you can do that somehow, i just lack the skill

you could abstract that out to phrases. basically go into the sampler or plugin tab for the instrument you wanna loop, then make a phrase with the length and pattern you want. then make sure the phrase loops infinitely, play a single note at step 0 in the main pattern, and enjoy

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
i swear by renoise and it is the only piece of music software i have ever paid for. i feel that strongly about it

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


we are in good company eg depeche mode

im_sorry
Jan 15, 2006

(9999)
Ultra Carp

Jonny 290 posted:

i swear by renoise and it is the only piece of music software i have ever paid for. i feel that strongly about it

When Cakewalk got sold, I bought both Renoise and Reaper. I actually learned how to sort of use Renoise, but I got really into Reaper and totally forgot how to use Renoise. The last thing I did with Renoise was https://soundcloud.com/the_door_is_scary/mopping-the-dog-piss

I'm thinking that Renoise would be perfect for my old 2013 era laptop, so I can make music in hotels.

im_sorry fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Jun 9, 2022

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP

im_sorry posted:

I'm thinking that Renoise would be perfect for my old 2013 era laptop, so I can make music in hotels.



i made a whole rear end EP with renoise on my work laptop entirely on my 70 minutes each way commutes to work when i first moved to Denver

https://soundcloud.com/jonny290/sets/untitled-ep

im_sorry
Jan 15, 2006

(9999)
Ultra Carp

Jonny 290 posted:

i made a whole rear end EP with renoise on my work laptop entirely on my 70 minutes each way commutes to work when i first moved to Denver

https://soundcloud.com/jonny290/sets/untitled-ep

I'm listening to it now, and it's pretty cool. I wish I had gotten the hang of making music on a laptop on the bus back in the day, but I was always so self conscious....

I've often been told that my music sounds like video game music, so I'd probably be better off with Renoise, but I can't seem to get the ambition to relearn it, even though I printed out the manual. Reaper was kind of similar to Sonar X3, which I learned on, so that's probably why.

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

you could abstract that out to phrases. basically go into the sampler or plugin tab for the instrument you wanna loop, then make a phrase with the length and pattern you want. then make sure the phrase loops infinitely, play a single note at step 0 in the main pattern, and enjoy

thanks this seems like a thing, however im not sure if it will work for me, because

i would use renoise purely as a midi sequencer - midi itself goes to ableton or hardware, so no instruments or vsts on the track (i think)

and the 2nd thing is that since the point of this whole exercise for me is to keep quick keyboard access to everything thatís happening, then having to navigate to other views to do stuff seems to
break that workflow

ill need to try it out anyway, thanks for the tip

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Jonny 290 posted:

i made a whole rear end EP with renoise on my work laptop entirely on my 70 minutes each way commutes to work when i first moved to Denver

https://soundcloud.com/jonny290/sets/untitled-ep

these all samples?

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
individual drum samples but all the beats are programmed and all the synths are like, synths

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


oh sweet

gotta be honest I donít know if I can produce as much sheer amount of content as you can :sigh: despite spending a lot of time in renoise I donít really make much, and certainly not an EPís worth of music

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

I have a real finite amount of energy I can put into a song, or piece of music more correctly, before I just canít any more, and so Iíve been filming content and making my own music videos for tiktok lol, sometimes with rodtronics graphics on top

itís extremely pure jack of all trades master of none lol

end up with poo poo like this https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSdGcuQMx/?k=1 which is twice as long as it should be

Dukes Mayo Clinic
Aug 31, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

I want to not work i just wanna plink plonk my stupid rear end in a daw all day

Dukes Mayo Clinic
Aug 31, 2009

echinopsis posted:

end up with poo poo like this https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSdGcuQMx/?k=1 which is twice as long as it should be

Iíve always thought rodtronics visuals would be perfect for synthwave tiktoks so Iím pleased to see you doing the thing.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I just tried writing lyrics and lmao theyíre terrible

echinopsis posted:

I have a real finite amount of energy I can put into a song, or piece of music more correctly, before I just canít any more

same but literally everything but especially music

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011


c music s:



scored a gently used line 6 hx effects unit for almost 50% off msrp (:toot:) from one of the toronto locations of my preferred music store chain. within 10 minutes of placing the order they phoned me just to let me know that it was in excellent shape and that it was in original packaging with all the original cables etc. 10/10 service

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

Dukes Mayo Clinic posted:

Iíve always thought rodtronics visuals would be perfect for synthwave tiktoks so Iím pleased to see you doing the thing.

if I were a decent artist Iíd actually put all three together in a meaningful way, as it stands the visuals and music and gfx are totally unrelated

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003

I always wondered wtf ring modulation was and found this video. I love the playing with the effect at the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI9W3KKDwUw

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


echinopsis posted:

if I were a decent artist Iíd actually put all three together in a meaningful way, as it stands the visuals and music and gfx are totally unrelated

do you think decent artists have that poo poo done better or?
plenty of seemingly low effort stuff everywhere. most pros have a dedicated vj or a full visual team doing that, so i would say its really rare that one person is doing the audio and the video and the result is well done.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


c music s heard that djing is a good way to learn the macro side of track arrangement

killhamster
Apr 15, 2004

SCAMMER
Hero Member
c music s: doing a mixdown for a friend who remixed me, bringing out all the subtleties and hints of things that maybe weren't even intended

i really fuckin wish htis was my job :smith:

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

c music s heard that djing is a good way to learn the macro side of track arrangement

you might also discover that a lot of house-techno and especially drum and bass music has their whole song structure built around being able to mix one tracks outro into another's intro

yeah i agree its a good idea to try it out, even with trying to mix in your own half finished stuff, because it gives you an idea of how your things compare

and well it's also just a super nice way to listen to music interactively

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
for sure. ive been mixing tracks for about 25 years now. it's a good way to learn how to match keys and vibes and learn the art of the push pull etc.

and im still learning. so my last uws set was the hardest thing ive ever done live. why? because i was playing tokyo citypop. and well i had internalized in my brain that it was probably drum machines right? W R O N G. soon as i started playing i realized they recorded all of this with live instumentation with no click tracks, and they would wander quite a bit BPM-wise. so i was having to really keep my hand on the platter and keep things synced, because band A playing the outro of song B was pushing the groove in a completely different tempo than band C playing the intro of song D, even though Traktor analyzed both at the same overall BPM. it was a big learning experience

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



unrelated: this song was apparently at #1 when i registered my forums account. this is the first time ive heard it. https://youtu.be/YtC92pzp5vw

there's a flourish that reminds me a ton of what i think was a broken bells song. hadn't thought about them in forever

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
oh for a while i was working for a sound company and playing top 40 rap sets at this bro bar, id play goodies at least once a night

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I recall that whistling driving me insane

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003

I can't say I recognize it. The singer is pretty though.

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003

Pollyanna posted:

I recall that whistling driving me insane

Truly the CRT whine of the pop charts.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


4lokos basilisk posted:

you might also discover that a lot of house-techno and especially drum and bass music has their whole song structure built around being able to mix one tracks outro into another's intro

yeah i agree its a good idea to try it out, even with trying to mix in your own half finished stuff, because it gives you an idea of how your things compare

and well it's also just a super nice way to listen to music interactively

iiiiinteresting

I wonder how much of the ďyou can learn from djingĒ thing is specific to club/venue-appropriate music? esp with the emphasis on enough space to do mixing, intros, outros, etc. I canít imagine itís easy to make a mix out of like king gizzard or elp

Jonny 290 posted:

for sure. ive been mixing tracks for about 25 years now. it's a good way to learn how to match keys and vibes and learn the art of the push pull etc.

and im still learning. so my last uws set was the hardest thing ive ever done live. why? because i was playing tokyo citypop. and well i had internalized in my brain that it was probably drum machines right? W R O N G. soon as i started playing i realized they recorded all of this with live instumentation with no click tracks, and they would wander quite a bit BPM-wise. so i was having to really keep my hand on the platter and keep things synced, because band A playing the outro of song B was pushing the groove in a completely different tempo than band C playing the intro of song D, even though Traktor analyzed both at the same overall BPM. it was a big learning experience

ooooo

yeah, I suppose this is not a bad idea at all then. apparently mixing software is $$$$$$$ tho

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
its the hardware really. free mix software exists but you gotta get knobs.

i have a traktor S2 setup, their entry level model with a full two deck interface



this'll hit you for $339 but you get the software along with it, and they're really well built and the standard. i think almost every yosdj i know of has a traktor something

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


hmm. well letís take a step back and consider why Iím asking about this in the first place.

jeremy from red means recording talks about how djing can make you a better musician in his dj challenge videos:

https://youtu.be/BE61P_83UNk

and me being me i want to (red flag #1) get better at something I do, in this case plinking away in renoise. itís not immediately clear to me how djing helps, though if i understand correctly it has to do with the larger scale arrangement and sectioning of tracks. i.e., when and how long to wait before playing patterns and melodies youíve written up, what patterns to play and when, and when to turn them off.

thereís one thing i know about writing music: donít turn everything on right out the gate. letís take this as an example:

https://youtu.be/03Eo2PDQPvo

itís clearly segmented itself into movements (is that the word?), and starts off relatively chill before bringing in the brass, then the melody, then a b section with a different kind of voice and a brassy mini-out to, then a chill ramp down back to the beginning.

this makes me want to know, what were the decisions and thought processes behind the non-harmonic/melodic pieces in the track, where they were placed, and why? e.g. the spacey piano around 1:16, or the emotional electric organ around 0:57.

if we think about this from a ďmake it easy for djs to mixĒ perspective, then the track progresses by restricting its changes to loops of a certain harmonic range - introducing and quieting loops in the lows, kids, and highs. so, if I admire this track and want to learn secrets of composition from it, then understanding how it composes for djing will help me understand and replicate+iterate on the choices it makes.

thatís why Iím asking about djing

im_sorry
Jan 15, 2006

(9999)
Ultra Carp
I just did a thing. The samples came from that sample pack, plus a sample from Clock Tower 3. A hopeful and optimistic track, full of ambitious plans for the future.

https://soundcloud.com/the_door_is_scary/this-is-the-end

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Jonny 290 posted:

its the hardware really. free mix software exists but you gotta get knobs.

i have a traktor S2 setup, their entry level model with a full two deck interface



this'll hit you for $339 but you get the software along with it, and they're really well built and the standard. i think almost every yosdj i know of has a traktor something

for a free alternative you can also try mixxx (hardware in this case is keyboard shortcuts or a cheapo midi controller you map yourself)

i actually tried traktor for a while (there is a free software only version) but it felt weird as hell. it was doing way too many things automagically, but then i never ended up having time to mess around and get really into it. also i ended up nuking all of native instruments stuff from my system a while ago because i never used it and it always felt bloated af

i definitely agree that hardware with tactile control of faders and eqs makes it more fun. for less structured genres you dont even have to do any beatmatching or intense technical stuff like that: just play the music that fits well together and make sure the next track is not too loud or quiet

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


found this cool video talking about getting into music production on a budget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0OW5yiKWks

Laserjet 4P
Mar 28, 2005

What does it mean?
Fun Shoe

Jonny 290 posted:

for sure. ive been mixing tracks for about 25 years now. it's a good way to learn how to match keys and vibes and learn the art of the push pull etc.

and im still learning. so my last uws set was the hardest thing ive ever done live. why? because i was playing tokyo citypop. and well i had internalized in my brain that it was probably drum machines right? W R O N G. soon as i started playing i realized they recorded all of this with live instumentation with no click tracks, and they would wander quite a bit BPM-wise. so i was having to really keep my hand on the platter and keep things synced, because band A playing the outro of song B was pushing the groove in a completely different tempo than band C playing the intro of song D, even though Traktor analyzed both at the same overall BPM. it was a big learning experience
native instruments literally recommends loading the track in ableton live and straightening it with complex pro enabled

of course other software has a flexible grid, or tempo cue points that donít actually hog your actual cue points buttons, and interesting unfunny stuff happens if you set a new cue point halfway because then it gets out of phase but hey the 3.6 beta will get an izotope maximizer which means theyíre really listening to user feedback right????

all of it sucks in its own way but i like traktor, i really do.

Jonny 290 posted:

its the hardware really. free mix software exists but you gotta get knobs.

i have a traktor S2 setup, their entry level model with a full two deck interface



this'll hit you for $339 but you get the software along with it, and they're really well built and the standard. i think almost every yosdj i know of has a traktor something

s2 haver here as well, itís compact and nice. i have a nanokontrol as extra so i have faders for the effects and buttons that i can assign to switch stuff off and on.

remapping it is not as easy as it could be but very worthwhile. i never use rev/flux mode so i have those mapped to master tempo up down (and it sets the clock to master too). cue button of a deck switches the master tempo back to deck. add to prep list and increase browser size do semitone up down because i prep and program all my stuff in advance with comments and poo poo, like ďhpf 6 verbkill 8Ē. first 4 cue points are for first half of the song, last four are for second half, so often itís the same per track which is nice. the loop size knobs are for per track fine tempo adjustments while the pitch faders range at -12/+12%.

Jonny 290 posted:

for about 25 years now i have been into Computer Music, and it has this baked-in unsolvable flaw, which is that you need a few CPU cycles to make the sound and wiggle the waveform.

this goes for any digital method of synthesis btw, i think a d-50 had like 10ms of latency. for analog devices you can have this as well since the keyboard and knobs are scanned and if that is done by a 1 mhz z80 and lovely firmware (jx10) there is always a delay and in several cases, stepping

Laserjet 4P
Mar 28, 2005

What does it mean?
Fun Shoe

Pollyanna posted:

itís not immediately clear to me how djing helps, though if i understand correctly it has to do with the larger scale arrangement and sectioning of tracks. i.e., when and how long to wait before playing patterns and melodies youíve written up, what patterns to play and when, and when to turn them off.


djing is also about reading the room and knowing when to back off a bit and when to continue. powerblock mixing keeps the energy level (exhaustingly) high but can be pretty cool at times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6xxMjbMg0

lots of dance music is about energy level which is an abstract combo of volumes, frequency range and impulses. a snare roll doing a crescendo is a simple example of that. djing teaches that this must be used effectively - people dancing must be able to anticipate it but not able to fully predict it. so, likewise, your song can use these tropes in a similar way.

you basically program your own neural net on lots of similar but not identical training data so you get a feel for where it should fit in your own track.

Laserjet 4P
Mar 28, 2005

What does it mean?
Fun Shoe
makiní music thread: loving looove to talk about makiní music way more than actually making it

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Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP

Pollyanna posted:

hmm. well letís take a step back and consider why Iím asking about this in the first place.

jeremy from red means recording talks about how djing can make you a better musician in his dj challenge videos:

https://youtu.be/BE61P_83UNk

and me being me i want to (red flag #1) get better at something I do, in this case plinking away in renoise. itís not immediately clear to me how djing helps, though if i understand correctly it has to do with the larger scale arrangement and sectioning of tracks. i.e., when and how long to wait before playing patterns and melodies youíve written up, what patterns to play and when, and when to turn them off.

thereís one thing i know about writing music: donít turn everything on right out the gate. letís take this as an example:

https://youtu.be/03Eo2PDQPvo

itís clearly segmented itself into movements (is that the word?), and starts off relatively chill before bringing in the brass, then the melody, then a b section with a different kind of voice and a brassy mini-out to, then a chill ramp down back to the beginning.

this makes me want to know, what were the decisions and thought processes behind the non-harmonic/melodic pieces in the track, where they were placed, and why? e.g. the spacey piano around 1:16, or the emotional electric organ around 0:57.

if we think about this from a ďmake it easy for djs to mixĒ perspective, then the track progresses by restricting its changes to loops of a certain harmonic range - introducing and quieting loops in the lows, kids, and highs. so, if I admire this track and want to learn secrets of composition from it, then understanding how it composes for djing will help me understand and replicate+iterate on the choices it makes.

thatís why Iím asking about djing

OK, great explainer post stating what you're seeking. So it's often a lot less intentional than you might believe. Pretty much when doing a dance track (i'm using that as a broad brush) you've got several elements to bring various moods and energies in and out

drums (obviously a cornerstone but pulling them can add tension, and adding fills and additional drum layers will add energy)
bass (gotta have it running for the track to have motion, or else it sounds like "a techno track somebody hit a track mute on). Edits and small sub-drops are king here. Like cut out the first note of your bassline on measure 5 of 8, that will give people a little head snap.
arps and lead lines (the general theme of a track and what people will hum in their head at 8am after they get home). once you bring these in, pulling them out will remove a lot of the harmonic/melodic content. thats why we don't run the lead in intros and outros, because you're mixing with another track generally.
pads, fx and samples - these are for air and mood. Often they're slightly atonal which means you can use them, if you like, on intro/outro. this can also help you generate tension on a mix - if you have the Signature Sample of your track right out of the gate, you can start the track with that and some basic drums - maybe even just hats or a kick - which allows you to repeatedly re-start it and tease the mix over the last half of the previous track. I do this a lot.

---

OK so let's do a live explainer of that word salad, and indulge my ego by using my track and i'll walk you through the thought process here. https://soundcloud.com/jonny290/backscatter open in a new window so you can follow along with the clock.

Starting out at 0:00 we have nothing but hats and a plinky, slidey ambience lead. This allows you to tease the theme in and gives you some hats to do the original beat match on.

Pads come in over a couple measures and add some air.

Then we get the 'real' hat pattern a few measures after that, this is where you lock in the beatmatch and take it up from 50% fader and get ready to transition the mix.

1:25 we got drums! If you started the mix early on in the previous track you can match these, but it's set up to allow a kick-less transition where you can cut the other track 4 measures before and use the part right before this as a pseudo-breakdown to build tension.

From here we establish the beat and energy. this is definitely a 'positive vibes atmospheric' track. great for 6am sunrise sets. Everything's very major key.

Then after we've telegraphed the vibe for a while, we break and pull drums around 2:07. This lets us have the pads and fx breathe. It's a long breakdown and as it progresses, we pull/tone down more elements until at the very end of the break, around 2:42, it's just that washed out sonar-esque ping.

2:50 ok this is the torso of the track. we have established all of our themes and vibes and its time to actually get into the groove.

We ride that out for 8 measures or so, solidify the melody and get people moving and into it.

Around 3:30 we do a micro break - just pull the drums (most of them, anyways) for a measure, to establish that somethin bout to happen. And it does!

3:32 we add a new component! This is a soft, very midrangey synth line that we use filtering on instead of tonal shifts to add body to the track without bringing in too many complex melodic elements. it's literally just straight 8th notes DDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEBBBBBBBB or whatever following the basic chord line, but I've got a randomizer on the filter cutoff to give it a rhythmic modulation.

4:03 we do a mid-sized breakdown to let that synth establish, pull drums again, fade out the midrange synth and reinforce the sonar ping line as the core element of the track.

4:14 here we go! I add yet another synth here. This is a super short decay arp synth line that acts as a secondary drum track. It starts out as just straight same-octave notes but after a couple measures i add a couple octave-up riffs on it. There's a heavy delay on this, so when it's playing straight 16ths of the same note, you don't notice, but then when it does the little riff up, that floats in the air a bit.

4:57 we pull the original 'midrange' synth and get into a more rhythmic mood, where we keep that 16th arp line in place. The sonar pings are still there, for sure.

5:41 we pull the 16th notes to calm things down a bit and bring back in the original plinky lead. Think of all of this as light and shade. There's full sun, there's the darkest forest, and then there's a lot of spots in between where you get some flickering of sunlight through holes in the forest canopy. it's not dark, but it's not sunshine, you can see both at the same time. We go back to throwing in just that little octave up riff from the 16th notes to keep that theme going in the brain.


6:16 we have our final drum pull breakdown, using the sonar ping and the 16th lead to carry the melody into the final drop.

and then at 6:21, it's all there. The sonar ping, the plinky original lead, the 16th arp pattern, the pads, drums and bass. Let's go.

6:58 or so we do a breakdown _across_ the measure mark. We're going to be entering a new phase here, but rather than starting the drums on measure 1 beat 1, we have a short drum pull _before_ the phrase transition and it proceeds into the new phrase. That little snap when the drums _do_ come in is the desired effect. The listener thinks that was a short mini-break before we switched here, but the lack of drums on beat 1 builds some excitement and interest. Once they come back in, it's very reassuring.

We've pulled the 16th note arp pattern from here on out as we want to bring the energy down a bit. we've gone on the walk in the woods. let's reflect on the day.

7:47 we pull more leads and get ready for the transition out. This basically echoes the intro after the drums are in; that one signature melody, bass and drums.

8:08 we pull the bass line to strip it down even more. at this point you should have the next track in pretty full mix.

8:29 we pull drums and that's it. we are done. this should be playing over your fully-kicked-in next track. Just let it ride out. i've done the crossfade for you already.

---

ok i hope that was interesting!

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