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Frond
Mar 12, 2018


Whew.

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harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



NASCAR is still going first, right? So they can judge and see how well that actually works.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



I decided to binge watch through the '98 CART season this week since I'm working from home now, and I thought I'd post some random thoughts from it here. I haven't seen a lot of it since I initially watched it as a kid, and most of the stuff I watch now on YT is either from the '70s or '80s.

- Man, Zanardi is so much fun to watch again. Wasn't a fan of him as a kid since he won all the drat time, and I feel bad that I didn't appreciate him then.

- Facepalming at my favorite driver from then (GdF) being a threat in drat near every race before invariably getting struck down.

- LOL Paul Tracy.

- I perversely love the Rio oval. The road course sucked for everything aside from motorcycle racing, but I loved the oval's charm of making everyone forget how to drive. And the final pass from Moore on Zanardi was loving awesome.

- LOL Paul Tracy.

- Boy was the US 500 conflicting to watch--an all time great race that really should've been called after the spectator incident.

- That first Houston track was so wretched but I found the race to be hilariously entertaining. The pre race segment w/the driver's SOs was sure something to watch in hindsight. Also LOL Paul Tracy.

- Ribeiro has been completely anonymous this season aside from loving up. Even Al Jr. with all his demons and that poo poo car was still capable of a few pretty good showings.

- I loved that finale. Super fun race that felt like a BFD even with the title wrapped up beforehand. Would've much rather seen that pushed as their flagship race than the US 500. And yet more LOL Paul Tracy.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011




Lipstick Apathy

Is that the year Zanardi did some ridiculous poo poo like winning at Cleveland from a lap down or something?

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



'97 was when he came from the back to win. I remember that and his batshit crazy race from Vancouver that year pretty well.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



Man 1998 takes me back. I loved Zanardi at the time, and hated seeing him struggle at Williams the next year.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011




Lipstick Apathy

I know he was in the best car on the field in those championship years, but it's still strange how bad he did in Formula One, and then on his return to CART.

dsriggs
May 28, 2012

MONEY FALLS...

...FROM THE SKY...

...WHENEVER HE POSTS!


algebra testes posted:

I know he was in the best car on the field in those championship years, but it's still strange how bad he did in Formula One, and then on his return to CART.

Jimmy Vasser did the same thing though. Mediocre his first 4 seasons, permanent front runner from 1996-98, then only scored a couple more wins & a few podiums in his last 8 seasons. That late 90's Ganassi team was just on a roll.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


Reynard Honda Firestone easy mode combined with Penske forgetting how to build a car, Lola imploding thanks to the F1 disaster and Goodyear just not giving a poo poo made for some interesting results

Proud Christian Mom fucked around with this message at 17:39 on May 10, 2020

your friend wicka
Jun 28, 2007

Huski Chocolate is a lifestyle, not only a product. It's about adventure & expedition. Living life to the fullest. It's a perfect recovery drink after training, because of the healthy carbohydrate and protein content, easy to digest and perfect for replenishing tired muscles.



News: https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/...engine/4790593/
Views: god dammit Mario shut the gently caress up

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



time for a no ferrari allowed rule in indycar please Mark Miles, thanks!!

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



haha red racecar go vroom

Basticle
Sep 12, 2011



your friend wicka posted:

Views: god dammit Mario shut the gently caress up


settle down wicka

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


Long Beach 1998 is one of the greatest CART races of all time.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


Ribiero actually DNQíd at Nazareth at I think. From what I understand he was badly affected by the switch to Goodyear tires more than anything else (he spent his entire prior career on Firestones) and was used to driveability of the Honda vs. the Ilmor.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


dsriggs posted:

Jimmy Vasser did the same thing though. Mediocre his first 4 seasons, permanent front runner from 1996-98, then only scored a couple more wins & a few podiums in his last 8 seasons. That late 90's Ganassi team was just on a roll.

Vasser was pretty good IMO. And one of the genuinely good Americans in a period when there were very few.

Late 90s CART did expose the flaw of the US ladder system in developing American open wheel drivers. This has since been rectified.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


got a link to all these 1998 cart races? i'd love a watch

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



MazeOfTzeentch posted:

got a link to all these 1998 cart races? i'd love a watch

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?li...B5A1383616A236B

Long Beach indeed owned as noted.

Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007

I've made a huge mistake.


Blundell was another one who sent through a brief bright patch. In his first 21 races, he got two fifths early on. then in the second half of 1997, he got three wins and two seconds in nine races. Then in the remaining 51 races of his CART career, he managed a high of 6th and only ten top tens.

Minto Took
Dec 4, 2002



Fun Shoe

your friend wicka posted:

News: https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/...engine/4790593/
Views: god dammit Mario shut the gently caress up

Ferrari absolutely should.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Development and driving style were huge in old CART. A car could be a dog at race 1, and a god by race 10. Equally you could totally click with what the car wanted early in the season (like if you are Montoya and you want the thing to be loose as gently caress), and be totally lost by the end of the season. The big teams would swap entire suspension geometries midseason, or whole new aero concepts. The little teams would run what Reynard or Lola gave them off the shelf, but even then sometimes there were big midseason updates.

Hell, the car was basically three distinct "cars" that only shared a tub, depending on the track. Nearly every bolt was different for the super speedways. You were getting new engines every single session. People were spending $20m a car. poo poo was wild.

Or you could get a new engine revision that suddenly had traction control!

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



Minto Took posted:

Ferrari absolutely should.

I feel like Mario is really soft-pedaling what would be needed for Ferrari to join.

  • allowance for Ferrari to make their own chassis, possibly without the requirement to sell to privateers
  • allowance for Ferrari to make their own engines
  • requirement that they keep things fairly balanced along with Dallara on chassis side, and Chevy and Honda on the engine side

nobody in IndyCar right now wants to has the cash to go into a late-90s style spending war on car or engine development, which has been secretly one of the reasons why the racing is so drat good. Honda and Chevy play nice, there's one spec chassis and dampers are really the only spot the teams can work on at all. Tobacco money isn't walking through that door. Manufacturer money is tied up keeping 12+ cars on the grid for most races, and more for The 500.

if Marchionne's passing meant money went to Sauber instead of Alfa-Romeo becoming a third IndyCar engine brand, that's kind of a real sad sliding doors moment. I'm sure IndyCar will be fine, but that...that was the one.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



Potential hot take here, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to say Indycar wouldn't be in too different a spot today even if the split never happened, taking into consideration the tobacco $ going bye bye and the economy tanking. As noted, there's no way the kind of spending going on was gonna last.

I suppose the biggest difference would be a better, non-fractured fanbase, especially through the mid/late aughts.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





hunnert car pileup posted:


I suppose the biggest difference would be a better, non-fractured fanbase, especially through the mid/late aughts.

I think you're fundamentally right here. The Split simply accelerated the loss of money, but it was going away one way or the other. Maybe we'd only be on the first spec car by now instead of eight years into the second spec car.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011




Lipstick Apathy

Pablo Bluth posted:

Blundell was another one who sent through a brief bright patch. In his first 21 races, he got two fifths early on. then in the second half of 1997, he got three wins and two seconds in nine races. Then in the remaining 51 races of his CART career, he managed a high of 6th and only ten top tens.

This was what, a combination of Mercedes Engines going to hell and terrible crashes? I seem to recall he was still great on ovals but blew up while leading a race a few years later. Pretty sure only Greg Moore won with Mercedes in that period right?

hunnert car pileup posted:

Potential hot take here, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to say Indycar wouldn't be in too different a spot today even if the split never happened, taking into consideration the tobacco $ going bye bye and the economy tanking. As noted, there's no way the kind of spending going on was gonna last.

I suppose the biggest difference would be a better, non-fractured fanbase, especially through the mid/late aughts.

CART was a total arms race between the engine manufacturers and the teams with chassis development, that would definitely boom and bust massively.

Minto Took
Dec 4, 2002



Fun Shoe

tbh, I see ICS as the perfect platform for Ferrari's, "aerodynamics are for people who can't make engines" ethos. Just have Ferrari supply engines and keep it all Dallara chassis.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


To be fair, both Pacwest and Blundell were stuck with the Mercedes engine, which got progressively worse after 1994 - there was a dead cat bounce in 1997.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


I like the mutant 1999 Patrick Racing car that was a Reynard 97i with a mix of 98i and 99i parts.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


Pacwest ran Reynards with Lola wings at Long Beach in either 1994 or 1995.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011




Lipstick Apathy

Was that story about Blundell winning in Portland ever confirmed? That he didn't know what position he finished and the team had to tell him he won?

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



Minto Took posted:

tbh, I see ICS as the perfect platform for Ferrari's, "aerodynamics are for people who can't make engines" ethos. Just have Ferrari supply engines and keep it all Dallara chassis.

Ferrari, due to the incoming F1 cost caps, are looking at places to put staff and resources to justify the Philip Morris money to save peopleís jobs. And Ferrari are also wanting to make everything on the car, because they want to maximize resale collector value they want their vehicles to be pure Scud.

Given that Ferrari already made bad noises about having to partner with a LMP2 company to qualify for the LMDh ruleset (because see above), I donít see them wanting to come to IndyCar as an engine-maker only. And I donít see them being okay to supply 1/3 of the grid as ICS and the current engine partners would want, or to have the agreements in place to limit development that Chevy and Honda have now.

(An aside: this detente between Honda and Chevy is why the racing is so good. A similar setup appears to have been in place in the DTM for a long time before BMW came in and didnít play by those gentlemenís agreements. Look at the state of the DTM right now).

So. If Ferrari come in as a team and engine maker, the best-case scenario is them swallowing that theyíll have to use Dallara chassis, and open up to supplying their team (letís say of two cars) plus providing ďAlfa-RomeoĒ engines to another group of teams.

Does that sound like something that would interest Ferrari? I donít think it does.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


I think Ferrari is more likely to do LMDh than IndyCar, the Le Mans heritage is strong there, but if they did both I'd love it.

e: I wish jag would get their heads out of their asses wrt motorsports and start doing more sportscar racing again

Minto Took
Dec 4, 2002



Fun Shoe

Yeah, I'm well aware my idea was Best Timeline optimism.

Also, fwiw, Peugeot did run and win Indianapolis with a factory team.

harperdc
Jul 24, 2007



MazeOfTzeentch posted:

I think Ferrari is more likely to do LMDh than IndyCar, the Le Mans heritage is strong there, but if they did both I'd love it.

e: I wish jag would get their heads out of their asses wrt motorsports and start doing more sportscar racing again

I think they're a possibility to pull a Ferrari 333SP and stick an engine into the Dallara. The question is "who would be the customer," but I think there's enough need to cover-off the loss of GTE-Pro in the future that they could justify the project.

also yeah Jag's current ownership doesn't know what the gently caress they're doing. iPace trophy isn't worth a drat.


Minto Took posted:

Also, fwiw, Peugeot did run and win Indianapolis with a factory team.

same as my opinion of college football, pre-war doesn't count

Minto Took
Dec 4, 2002



Fun Shoe

harperdc posted:

same as my opinion of college football, pre-war doesn't count

:C

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I went through all the stuff a few years ago cause im dumb as hell, and Ferrari has only been entered into the 500 once. 1952 with Alberto Ascari, the only world championship race he didn't win that year iirc. Peugeot won 3 times (1913, 1916, 1919)

Funny enough, the only FCA brand to ever win was Maserati twice (39 and 40), with Wilbur Shaw driving and some baller red paint.

Minto Took
Dec 4, 2002



Fun Shoe

I'm curious about the team and ownership situation of the 1919 winning car. Glorious Wiki said the team was IMS itself running that Peugeot.

dsriggs
May 28, 2012

MONEY FALLS...

...FROM THE SKY...

...WHENEVER HE POSTS!


Minto Took posted:

I'm curious about the team and ownership situation of the 1919 winning car. Glorious Wiki said the team was IMS itself running that Peugeot.

According to the book 500 Miles To Go, the Speedway did indeed own the 1st & 3rd placed Peugeots that year. Jules Goux was brought in to run the team that month because of his history with Peugeot, but the cars were Speedway-owned. There was also a Premier on the entry list in that same team that failed to qualify.

This was because, early in World War 1, the Speedway bought a number of cars to shore up the field, because Europe was at war & most local manufacturers had to shut down their race teams. 7 cars out of 21 starters in the 1916 300-mile race were owned by the Speedway.

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake




That car is loving beautiful in person.

Also, I'm up to St Louis '99 this week, and god drat did I chortle at Blundell's Motorola-branded neckbrace. Talladega Nights didn't go far enough.

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IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Aw yiss, https://racer.com/2020/05/13/retro-...y-of-king-hiro/

Also, St. Pete back on in October for the finale, apparently.

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