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Rodenthar Drothman
May 14, 2013

I think I will continue
watching this twilight world
as long as time flows.

Just participated in my first chapter meeting via zoom last night, and it was pretty great. Everyone seemed like a swell bunch of folks, and I'm looking forward to being more involved as everything gets set up.

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Vorkosigan
Mar 28, 2012



Grimey Drawer

All the slack diehard shitposters being so angry at being told to use the forums has me tonight

Wangsbig
May 27, 2007



Vorkosigan posted:

All the slack diehard shitposters being so angry at being told to use the forums has me tonight

weird the CC member telling everyone on twitter to shove it up their asses amongst other contemptuous lines has me whatever emoji is the one you use when the second biggest socialists org in the country is being actively run into the ground by people that should have never had power

maybe

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


Slack sounded toxic as gently caress so welp

Vorkosigan
Mar 28, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Oh, that's a whole nother thing Wang, I'm talking specifically about the peeps wanting an official national IM client just to post memes in.

Wangsbig
May 27, 2007



Vorkosigan posted:

Oh, that's a whole nother thing Wang, I'm talking specifically about the peeps wanting an official national IM client just to post memes in.

get this: that's Good

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

"I invested all this social capital into this platform, what do you mean I have to contribute to another platform???"

Mambo No. 5
Feb 24, 2009

Admiral Parry "Terror" Sornis,
Dead Birds Society


I'm glad my local discord is good and fun.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Also sexism, religious bias, jingoism, and so on. Don't do it, people!

Dogs, don't do it either, even if the police man really tries to train you to do it.



Jehde posted:

"I invested all this social capital into this platform, what do you mean I have to contribute to another platform???"

Clearly the only answer is for people that want to be on a forum to split from the people who want to be on Slack and have a war of character assassinations and doxxing until one side gets the name.

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


22 Eargesplitten posted:

Clearly the only answer is for people that want to be on a forum to split from the people who want to be on Slack and have a war of character assassinations and doxxing until one side gets the name.

The "you cannot take my memes and casual racism! you will regret this! slack forever!" side is well ahead of you on the doxxing and character assassination front.

eighty-four merc
Dec 22, 2010


In 2020, we're going to make the end of Fight Club real.


Capn Beeb posted:

The "you cannot take my memes and casual racism! you will regret this! slack forever!" side is well ahead of you on the doxxing and character assassination front.

Which chapter is this?

I love the idea that SRA and Atomwaffen Division draw from the same pool of guys

Horseshoe theory baby!

Vorkosigan
Mar 28, 2012



Grimey Drawer

It's mostly people who aren't in a chapter, I'm finding.

Anyone in a chapter is usually on different comms, and too busy with organizing work to shitpost constantly on national slack, no matter their tendency.

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


eighty-four merc posted:

Which chapter is this?

I love the idea that SRA and Atomwaffen Division draw from the same pool of guys

Horseshoe theory baby!

Seems it's all focused in the national slack, regional chapters are more or less free of the worst of it.

Funion
Apr 30, 2013

ANTIFA SUPERSOLDIER





It's becoming obvious that a chapter's reliance on national needs to be the other way around. Bottom-up is functionally how it should be anyways.

An aspect of this would be the $25 SRA fee that hurts prospective working class individuals who can't afford spending that much money on an organization they're not 100% sure on.

Whether your chapter decides to make full use of the waiver system or just takes in new members regardless of national, you'll want a functional vetting system to replace the financial barrier of national membership (if you didn't have one already).

Here's the tiered vetting system our chapter is finalizing:

Tier one: New members
Your new members, invited to whatever platform your chapter uses (Discord in our case), should have access to basic rules, introduction, and vetting channels. They should give a brief introduction of themselves, and be prompted to complete initial vetting. This can be done by voice interview, in-person interview (currently not viable without masks), or by sharing 2 or more social media accounts (at least one of which should be active). Interviews should be laid back and incorporate open-ended questions. ("Why did you join the SRA?" "What do you expect from our chapter?" "What experience do you have with firearms?") An optional off-topic question can be useful as well. ("What is your perfect Sunday?") After initial vetting, they advance to tier two.

Tier two: Probationary members
These members should gain access to general chat, news, firearms chat, and meme posting channels. This way they can interact with the membership in a way that minimizes security risks. If they are relatively active here for a month, they can advance to tier 3. This length of time should weed out most infiltrators; who don't have the patience to pretend for a whole month. Our chapter gives another way to advance to tier 3: attending a gun safety lesson held by us. This is more personal (and held in a different location) than a chapter range day. If we feel comfortable with them after the lesson, they can skip the probationary period and advance to tier 3. How your chapter wants to implement a tier skip should be discussed within your chapter.

Tier three: Full members
The final tier. If your chapter grows to triple or quadruple digits, you may want to implement additional tiers. This tier should have access to chapter announcements, organizing, opsec, direct action, mutual aid, and voice channels. Members of this tier can join range days and other planned events. It should be noted that any SPECIFIC direct action or sensitive planning should not be discussed on the chapter platform, but on more secure channels like Signal (or in person). It's important to keep security and potential doxxing in mind, even with full members. Also it shouldn't have to be said, but DON'T USE YOUR REAL NAME ON YOUR CHAPTER PLATFORM IF YOU PLAN TO JOIN PROTESTS OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN MUTUAL AID. Don't self-own.

Anyways, hopefully this helps or gives ideas to other chapters. Solidarity!

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Full disclosure: I like the idea of the SRA, but reading this thread makes me second guess whether I want to actually bother ever joining, and the drama of dipshit anti-gun libs and (hyperbolically) Atomwaffen rejects has certainly made me cool my heels with regard to looking into the organization and the possibility of affiliating myself with it in the near future.

What I知 saying is, I appreciate this thread and hope the org gets its poo poo together. If/when it does, I値l join a little after that.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone




Is there anything from the leadership that's been lovely? Or is it just some occasional assholes in a chat?

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


Nitrousoxide posted:

Is there anything from the leadership that's been lovely? Or is it just some occasional assholes in a chat?

Leadership has been wanting to pull the plug on national slack for loving ages because of dipshits. Dipshits having a normal one for Meltdown May is just the crux.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



Dick Burglar posted:

Full disclosure: I like the idea of the SRA, but reading this thread makes me second guess whether I want to actually bother ever joining, and the drama of dipshit anti-gun libs and (hyperbolically) Atomwaffen rejects has certainly made me cool my heels with regard to looking into the organization and the possibility of affiliating myself with it in the near future.

What I知 saying is, I appreciate this thread and hope the org gets its poo poo together. If/when it does, I値l join a little after that.

You can ignore the slack once you get in touch with your local group from what I understand. It's a very vocal minority camping in the one national communication platform.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Call me crazy, but I don't want to associate with a group that won't get rid of the loving terrible elements.

Problematic Soup
Feb 18, 2007

My soup has malfunctioned?



They just changed the national bylaws, and this will hopefully help with a lot of the issues. Things are honestly pretty poo poo right now on the national slack channel.

I think most people are pretty happy with their local chapters, but as a national organization they have some problems. I think that eventually things will get better.

wolfs
Jul 17, 2001

posted by squid gang



Heyo- chiming in: someone here mentioned they壇 joined and were in the Houston area? Texas as a state is migrating off Slack, check the channel or PM me for more info.

We値l probably do a thing on the SRA forums too?

Funion
Apr 30, 2013

ANTIFA SUPERSOLDIER





^Solidarity, people of the Ten Gallon Hats

By the way, national is essentially a universe apart from local chapters. Don't let national drama push you away from joining your local chapter. Our chapter could function without national easily.

Also, if you are interested in joining a local SRA chapter near you but are strapped for cash, you can easily get a member to sponsor you for a Dues Waiver. Just ask!

Our chapter still checks the national slack, but if you live in central or southern Arizona you can PM me to get in faster.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

I get that local chapters are decentralized. I understand that, I promise. What the people posting that as reassurance seem to be failing to understand is that I have a problem with any organization that refuses to purge a noxious element. If people are being trash, tell them they're being trash and to either shape up or get the gently caress out. All chapters, largely autonomous though they may be, still wear the same SRA banner. I don't care if they're "SRA: Bumfuck Nowhere" and I'm joining "SRA: Somewhere Else," poo poo still comes back to haunt every chapter because they're all under the same SRA banner. And for something as politically "icky" to most Americans as an organization explicitly calling itself Socialist, yeah, I'm gonna pass unless the shitters get ousted. I do not want to have my name in any way associated with dipshits. I am enough of a dipshit on my own, I don't need any extra help. Thanks.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



Yea, we all understand that. People are just describing to you a solution akin to people joining the NRA for a year for a range membership and then not reupping. Yes, it sucks to have to deal the NRA one time, but then you can just ignore them and now you have a range membership.

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012


It's worth pointing out that this whole drama was between maybe a dozen people in an org 4.5k strong. It only got an outsized volume because of the nature of online discussions being available for anyone to see. It's the equivalent of 2 dudes getting into a fistfight in an army - technically good for cohesion? No, but would you say the army is bad solely because of it?

Personally I was reminded of the FYAD drama (another thing I had nothing to do with but witnessed thanks to everything being public on the internet) while watching this go on, both in terms of a small group of people making a lot of drama for everyone (no real judgement here on which side was wrong, btw, not the place) but also in terms of how deleting a place for discussion, while positive in intention, just made the drama spill out everywhere and be worse than when it was contained. I don't think either side here is blameless, honestly, even if I don't feel the importance of the issue.

Then again, I'm also a bit new and in the middle of helping organize a chapter from the ground up in the middle of a pandemic, so my priorities are different.

EDIT: Also worth noting it wasn't even very toxic before a few people started name-calling. I guess it's my time of this website that made me think the whole thing was very tame, especially by leftist-infighting standards.

Sarrisan fucked around with this message at 17:16 on May 11, 2020

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Sarrisan posted:


Personally I was reminded of the FYAD drama (another thing I had nothing to do with but witnessed thanks to everything being public on the internet) while watching this go on, both in terms of a small group of people making a lot of drama for everyone (no real judgement here on which side was wrong, btw, not the place) but also in terms of how deleting a place for discussion, while positive in intention, just made the drama spill out everywhere and be worse than when it was contained. I don't think either side here is blameless, honestly, even if I don't feel the importance of the issue.

Without commenting on whatever this socialist IRC/discord/whatever drama is or even really the FYAD mess I値l say this:

Long, hard won experience here at Something Awful has show 田ontainment zones - be they threads or entire forums - doesn稚 work and blows up in your face in the long term. poo poo festers and the crap ends up spilling out with a vengeance. Worse, you end up with extremely insular sub-communities that can fly under the radar for a long time being totally cool with some ugly poo poo that causes mega drama when people in the larger organization notice.

This isn稚 just a FYAD example either. One of my earliest mistakes as a mod right here in TFR was trying to have a politics chat containment thread. Other forums have similar stories, some giant drama bombs that the whole forums became aware of (see: Succ Zone) some little things that you壇 only find out about if you were really into a specific forum at a specific time.

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012


Cyrano4747 posted:

Without commenting on whatever this socialist IRC/discord/whatever drama is or even really the FYAD mess I値l say this:

Long, hard won experience here at Something Awful has show 田ontainment zones - be they threads or entire forums - doesn稚 work and blows up in your face in the long term. poo poo festers and the crap ends up spilling out with a vengeance. Worse, you end up with extremely insular sub-communities that can fly under the radar for a long time being totally cool with some ugly poo poo that causes mega drama when people in the larger organization notice.

This isn稚 just a FYAD example either. One of my earliest mistakes as a mod right here in TFR was trying to have a politics chat containment thread. Other forums have similar stories, some giant drama bombs that the whole forums became aware of (see: Succ Zone) some little things that you壇 only find out about if you were really into a specific forum at a specific time.

I phrased that badly, but I was actually referring to how QCS was closed - I remember mini-qcs threads popping up everywhere. Dunno if leaving it open would been better, at the end of the day there was likely no perfect decision that would have made everyone happy.

Uncle Lizard
Sep 28, 2012


I have a question. There is John Brown Gun Club near me (Puget Sound area), and I was thinking about joining once the virus has either infected everyone or the fear is gone. Are there any issues in which the SRA and JBGC disagree, and if so, does anyone know what they are? Can I be a member of both, and is there a chapter of SRA near me (Western Washington, Everett to Olympia area)?

TehKeen
May 24, 2006

Maybe she's born with it.
Maybe it's
cosmoline.




Uncle Lizard posted:

I have a question. There is John Brown Gun Club near me (Puget Sound area), and I was thinking about joining once the virus has either infected everyone or the fear is gone. Are there any issues in which the SRA and JBGC disagree, and if so, does anyone know what they are?

"Disagree" not so much - JBGC is more community-defense oriented whereas SRA is moreso education and mutual-aid focused, though there can be a lot of overlap. They're more complementary, IMO, than anything though the SRA, from my understanding, wouldn't necessarily want you doing armed counterprotest actions with your membership card on you, for example. (which is fine cause I still haven't got mine )

quote:

Can I be a member of both, and is there a chapter of SRA near me (Western Washington, Everett to Olympia area)?

Yes, and yes. Just shoot an email at the jbgc protonmail once you want to start that vetting ball rolling.

Uncle Lizard
Sep 28, 2012


TehKeen posted:

"Disagree" not so much - JBGC is more community-defense oriented whereas SRA is moreso education and mutual-aid focused, though there can be a lot of overlap. They're more complementary, IMO, than anything though the SRA, from my understanding, wouldn't necessarily want you doing armed counterprotest actions with your membership card on you, for example. (which is fine cause I still haven't got mine )


Yes, and yes. Just shoot an email at the jbgc protonmail once you want to start that vetting ball rolling.

Thanks for the information. It sounds like there might be some slight benefits to being a member of both, if I have the funds to support both. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Noam Chomsky
Apr 4, 2019






https://twitter.com/T_R_0_V_3_R/sta...690963276103682

Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 03:12 on May 12, 2020

FAT32 SHAMER
Aug 16, 2012
Tell your mum I said hi lol

I recently pulled the trigger and joined

sudo rm -rf
Aug 2, 2011


$ mv fullcommunism.sh
/america
$ cd /america
$ ./fullcommunism.sh




i really like the national slack and i値l be bummed if they can it. there痴 not a lot of spaces for informal p gear chat with people who aren稚 chuds and i don稚 understand why we should jettison that aspect of the community.

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012


sudo rm -rf posted:

i really like the national slack and i値l be bummed if they can it. there痴 not a lot of spaces for informal p gear chat with people who aren稚 chuds and i don稚 understand why we should jettison that aspect of the community.

The main issue is cost. Slacks free version is not made for an org this size - you are only allowed a limited amount of data before messages get "archived." We are currently at like 6 days or something and it gets shorter every day. To get a professional version would cost like 10's of thousands of dollars which the org cannot support.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Sarrisan posted:

The main issue is cost. Slacks free version is not made for an org this size - you are only allowed a limited amount of data before messages get "archived." We are currently at like 6 days or something and it gets shorter every day. To get a professional version would cost like 10's of thousands of dollars which the org cannot support.

Maybe migrate to a free client?

I mean note that I know gently caress and all about what differentiates all these different chat programs. I kind of mentally leap to going with Discord, but for all I know Slack has a ton of features that it doesn't that are vitally important.

Just note that migrating sooner is going to be less painful than migrating later.

Mambo No. 5
Feb 24, 2009

Admiral Parry "Terror" Sornis,
Dead Birds Society


We're kind of at the migrating sooner rather than later part and the biggest concern I keep seeing is from people that have made connections with people at the national level and worrying about losing that by losing slack. I'm chilling with my locals in discord and having a good time, but I know that's not the case for some people. I don't know why they don't create another space for their group, like a National [Topic] discord, where they can hang out and continue their good times.

There's also a bunch of resistance to the forum, which isn't reddit or SA, so it's not as easy for people to get into using. I didn't have an issue, and I check there about once a week to look for major new threads, but I spend the vast majority of my time with my chapter.

I totally understand not wanting to lose an online community. Especially around this topic.

sudo rm -rf
Aug 2, 2011


$ mv fullcommunism.sh
/america
$ cd /america
$ ./fullcommunism.sh




yeah personally i haven稚 checked the website/forum much at all, but i check the slack all the time. one of the benefits of the slack is the accessibility from mobile platforms.

i understand that it痴 probably not optimal for official org business with the whole disappearing messages thing, but it is a decent social space otherwise. i壇 be fine going to discord or something, but I would just hate losing that social space - which has been pretty cool to have in the absence of getting to meet in the middle of all the poo poo happening.

FAT32 SHAMER
Aug 16, 2012
Tell your mum I said hi lol

Discord security sucks butts and I hope we use an xmpp client instead

Vorkosigan
Mar 28, 2012



Grimey Drawer

I get that people just wanna chat, but the issue is that you put 3 leftists in a room and arguing is gonna start. The Slack being the main comms platform has lead to A LOT of dis-engagement by people seeing infighting - anarchists against MLs, mostly - and the absolutely garbage moderation options slack gives as compared to a forum makes it easy for shitposters and bad actors to poison the waters.

The SRA space is supposed to be for organizing chapters, who then do the work of the org. The poo poo flinging hurts that goal immensely - I know I personally get demotivated when I read a 200reply thread that has the Member Welfare Committee members saying 'please stop' and then agitators continuing to post for another 150 replies. If you think these fights don't happen, or are easy to ignore, you don't spend any time on the slack. We've had multiple CC members, awesome SMEs, and excellent organizers quit the org because of this kinda poo poo.

And if nothing else, there are MAJOR technical limitations to Slack. Those 300 reply threads? They make the entire instance lag and crash. With as many people as are in the slack now, messages last for less than a week. I'm _tired_ of answering the same questions over and over and over and over because new people have no way to read back even a few days.

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Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"



Fun Shoe

I'm not looking to join but I have a question about the slack thing.

Can't you just boot people? Reading these last few pages it seems like a classic case of the the 1% of noisy assholes ruining everything for everyone.

I nearly peaced out on TFR when I landed in the Discord without checking the forums.

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