Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«67 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Utgardaloki
Mar 2, 2009


I think another thing people overlook about Yosuke is that he's supposed to parallel the other two similar characters who are thrust into a supernatural situation and gently caress it up.

just like them, Yosuke is bored, stuck in the boonies and hates it, and is spurred into the plot by a life-changing bad thing that threw his life off the rails (Saki dying), but what we're supposed to be aware of is that while part of his participation is in response to frustrating boredom, he's still trying to do the right thing (and does so largely selflessly, since the girl he's trying to impress is dead and didn't even like him) which contrasts the villains, Namatame and Adachi

it's hard to gauge characters on their actions when all the protagonists are putting in the same amount of dangerous work but I do think Yosuke stands out in the 'letting his actions speak for him' department. It also comes out weird since the protagonist is very clearly also supposed to fit this mold and he and Yosuke share that space kind of awkwardly. (I like mute protagonists the player can shape somewhat but the Persona team bungles them pretty hard, especially in P5)

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


ApplesandOranges posted:

Ryuji is such a good bro character. Max Mittleman also does a phenomenal job with him. All the P5 VAs are pretty good at their job but I think his work as Ryuji is king.

when he learns that the money in the third treasure's suitcase is fake you can hear his heart break and his dreams die

Zvahl
Oct 14, 2005

Science Kitty Approves



Pork Pro

i would pay real actual money for the kaneshiro ginko billion yen funbux though

e or 100m i forget what was on the bill

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Having watched videos on the internet I can also confirm that Ryuji is also the worst dancer in any Persona game.

Even Futaba at least has a bit of a childish glee to her dancing. Ryuji just throws out every terrible dance move other than maybe Walk Like an Egyptian.

And yet, I enjoy his terrible dancing more than Haru or Yukiko.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


Utgardaloki posted:

I think another thing people overlook about Yosuke is that he's supposed to parallel the other two similar characters who are thrust into a supernatural situation and gently caress it up.

just like them, Yosuke is bored, stuck in the boonies and hates it, and is spurred into the plot by a life-changing bad thing that threw his life off the rails (Saki dying), but what we're supposed to be aware of is that while part of his participation is in response to frustrating boredom, he's still trying to do the right thing (and does so largely selflessly, since the girl he's trying to impress is dead and didn't even like him) which contrasts the villains, Namatame and Adachi

it's hard to gauge characters on their actions when all the protagonists are putting in the same amount of dangerous work but I do think Yosuke stands out in the 'letting his actions speak for him' department. It also comes out weird since the protagonist is very clearly also supposed to fit this mold and he and Yosuke share that space kind of awkwardly. (I like mute protagonists the player can shape somewhat but the Persona team bungles them pretty hard, especially in P5)

This whole thing about the protagonist and Yosuke is actually kind of a side theme of his story in Persona 4 and especially Arena. Where he kind of has a complex about how he's effectively always the sidekick never the hero even though they're supposed to be "partners".

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Pillbug

It is interesting that Yosuke is playing both the Ryuji and Makoto roles at the same time. Makoto never really seemed to have much a complex over not being the leader of the group even though once she joins she is the fully the brains of the operation. Give that role to the bro character though and yeah, I could see why they might be a bit miffed that they do all the hard investigative work while the protagonist just nods, then gets all the credit for it. He's still constantly an rear end in a top hat though.

Also echoing the person upthread who said a silent protagonist really drags on this type of game, I know it's a pipe dream but I hope an eventual Persona 6 will actually have at least a semi-vocalized protagonist with some more dialogue.

arisu
Apr 11, 2003


Let's be real, once Makoto joins she is basically the leader of the group. You're just the tool used to decide when to go to the metaverse.

Stroth
Mar 31, 2007

All Problems Solved


arisu posted:

Let's be real, once Makoto joins she is basically the leader of the group. You're just the tool used to decide when to go to the metaverse.

She's not the leader, but she's definitely the brains of the operation. The difference between her and Yosuke is that half the time Yosuke is (like all good teenage boys) and idiot and/or an rear end in a top hat. So while they're friends with him the group doesn't particularly respect him. Plus when he does take charge it tends to immediately go horribly wrong.


Sydin posted:

Makoto never really seemed to have much a complex over not being the leader of the group even though once she joins she is the fully the brains of the operation.

Probably because the groups reaction to her was basically "Wait you know how to make plans? Oh thank god we are all so dumb please tell us what to do."

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Pillbug

What Joker has going for him is ultimately that he's the heart of the group who never compromises his ideals (unless you play him like a loving moron and/or take the obvious bad end deals I guess) which is why he has to keep comforting everybody in the bazillion text threads of "OH GOD WILL THE CHANGE OF HEART WORK THIS TIME?!?!?" or snap them back to reality in the Velvet Room and third semester. Even Makoto for all that she becomes the primary decision maker once she joins has massive hangups over what she's doing. Joker has no such hangups and so generally keeps the group focused and on track.

The hero in P4 so far has... kinda done none of that? Yosuke has been guiding the entire investigation while the protagonist just nods along and everybody else is wrapped up in getting their stock anime trope across. Besides handling the money and buying everybody equipment you don't really do much of anything to qualify as "leader" other than be the player.

Wiggly Wayne DDS
Sep 11, 2010





Nap Ghost

For those who see Makoto are the brains/strategy of the operation, what do you consider Futaba to be? One of those characters is far more load-bearing on how the group operates than the other.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005


The one thing P3 did better than P4/P5 re: the MC is giving him a very definite personality which is reflected in all your dialogue choices. P4/P5 try to go more blank slate, and it comes off as schizophrenic because you get some wildly different choices, especially in P5.

Edit:

Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:

For those who see Makoto are the brains/strategy of the operation, what do you consider Futaba to be? One of those characters is far more load-bearing on how the group operates than the other.

Futaba is the specialist. She can provide the answers but doesn't necessarily know what questions to ask.

AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jun 26, 2020

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009


P3 MC would have to say something remotely interesting to have a personality, at least FeMC spices things up a bit

Gruckles
Mar 11, 2013



Yu as a character is pretty non-existent within P4 itself, but the personality they give him in the anime adaptation and arena games is really funny.

Sloober
Apr 1, 2011


i'm not sure there's any way to make the MC of these games more interesting than a soundboard since you're the one controlling them

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

Sydin posted:

Yeah having Joker buddy up with a bunch of classmates who aren't in the PT's undermines the whole "you're a group of social outcasts all 'normal' students avoid" theme. I don't mind that the confidants got moved to being misfit adults who empathize and provide some assistance to Joker. That you can bang a bunch of them is an unfortunate side effect but hey.

I am enjoying the social links in P4G so far though. Weirdly while the game over all leans harder into stock anime tropes than P5 does, the social links themselves feel way more down to earth and real so far. Temperance in particularly is really drawing me in while simultaneously bumming me out because it feels too real.

Yeah, this is more or less my feeling about P4G's non-party social links. Some of them deal with some pretty realistic serious stuff that is generally more compelling than the content of P5's confidante events.

I also like most of the party shadow stuff. Usually games like this wouldn't be as up-front with acknowledging that these characters secretly hold these very realistic feelings, though IMO P4 doesn't do a great job of exploring the party members to that extent during their social links.

As for P5, while not having classmate social links makes sense, it doesn't change the fact that I still prefer P4's situation where the protagonist has a more reasonable social life. It doesn't help that in P5 you end up with ridiculous situations like your character placing in the top 10 of every exam and people still going "OMG maybe this guy is serious about studying?!" 9 months into the school year; it's hard to really buy the protagonist still being an outcast after that amount of time.

edit: One other bonus to P4 is that your sister figure is unquestionably a sister figure and you can't date her

Sydin posted:

What Joker has going for him is ultimately that he's the heart of the group who never compromises his ideals (unless you play him like a loving moron and/or take the obvious bad end deals I guess) which is why he has to keep comforting everybody in the bazillion text threads of "OH GOD WILL THE CHANGE OF HEART WORK THIS TIME?!?!?" or snap them back to reality in the Velvet Room and third semester. Even Makoto for all that she becomes the primary decision maker once she joins has massive hangups over what she's doing. Joker has no such hangups and so generally keeps the group focused and on track.

The hero in P4 so far has... kinda done none of that? Yosuke has been guiding the entire investigation while the protagonist just nods along and everybody else is wrapped up in getting their stock anime trope across. Besides handling the money and buying everybody equipment you don't really do much of anything to qualify as "leader" other than be the player.

This is pretty true. The P4 guy can be good in some situations (I think he works well in the family dynamic at the Dojima household), but in the context of the investigation team he doesn't really do much and is just kind of arbitrarily the leader by virtue of being the first to awaken his persona and not needing to reveal all his vulnerabilities through his shadow self.

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

Yosuke is probably the worst of the first party members, character wise. He's always held his weight in battle, but as a character there's not much there. I'll take Junpei's hero complex before him.

Ryuji's still the best though.

Yosuke's alright so far (forget his later S-links, but I'm at 4 or 5 now). His situation is fairly interesting/compelling (constantly having to deal with being disliked in this small down due to being the scion of the manager of this supermarket that has ruined a lot of local stores + dealing with having to work there constantly).

The game also pretty directly reveals the self-centered aspect of his personality (which is honestly very realistic for a teenager in his situation).

arisu posted:

P4G has a phenomenal soundtrack, but no way does it top P5's, especially when you add in the P5R tracks.

There's a lot of things P4 does better but music isn't one of them.

Like I said before, P4 has better non-dungeon/battle music, but P5 has dramatically better battle/dungeon music.

The issue with P5's "overworld/city" music is that there isn't enough of it. I ended up getting very tired of the "evening music" by the end of the game. I like P4's "Signs of Love" a lot more.

Zvahl posted:

reach out to the truth edged out mass destruction barely

I'd probably rank the "regular battle music" as Last Surprise (I like it waaaay more than the new "ambush an enemy" music) > Mass Destruction > Time to Make History > Reach out to the Truth > new P5R "ambushed the enemy" battle track (I'm not familiar with P3P's female protag battle track so not including that)

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 26, 2020

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Pillbug

I did like how when Yosuke was hatching his chicks dig motorcycles plot you get an actually kinda lovely dialogue option of "Oh, over Saki-senpai already huh?" which I took anyway out of curiosity, and instead of being a dumb comedic moment the mood actually shifts and Yosuke talks about how it still hurts and he's not happy about it, but yes he's trying to move on and get over Saki because that's the healthy thing to do.

Ytlaya posted:

As for P5, while not having classmate social links makes sense, it doesn't change the fact that I still prefer P4's situation where the protagonist has a more reasonable social life. It doesn't help that in P5 you end up with ridiculous situations like your character placing in the top 10 of every exam and people still going "OMG maybe this guy is serious about studying?!" 9 months into the school year; it's hard to really buy the protagonist still being an outcast after that amount of time.

Yeah I understand it's a huge pain in the rear end writing wise because you have to account for scenarios where people place differently on exams and it adds up fast, but it is dumb as hell that you still get the same "Wow maybe he really is smart?!" dialogue in January, after you've been at the top of your class for almost an entire school year and constantly answer every question right when called on in class.

Utgardaloki
Mar 2, 2009


silent player defined protags are very good though, it's just the Persona games that botch them

Both Devil Survivor protags are good, though having multiple endings helps let the player round them out a bit.

And Tyler Too!
Aug 15, 2007
JOCKEY OWNS

Stichelin it is, thank you!


So it's possible to get permanently stuck after the 3rd will seed in the bonus dungeon. After exiting you can only activate the red & green lights, you're cut off from blue and red will be walled off, preventing access to the yellow bridge out. Huge design oversight, hope you have Goho-M!

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

And Tyler Too! posted:

So it's possible to get permanently stuck after the 3rd will seed in the bonus dungeon. After exiting you can only activate the red & green lights, you're cut off from blue and red will be walled off, preventing access to the yellow bridge out. Huge design oversight, hope you have Goho-M!

You need to disable all three lights to even get to the will seed, so the design is deliberately set up so you can find a path back. Don't forget that there's an area where you can hop over a few platforms.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Sydin posted:

What Joker has going for him is ultimately that he's the heart of the group who never compromises his ideals (unless you play him like a loving moron and/or take the obvious bad end deals I guess) which is why he has to keep comforting everybody in the bazillion text threads of "OH GOD WILL THE CHANGE OF HEART WORK THIS TIME?!?!?" or snap them back to reality in the Velvet Room and third semester. Even Makoto for all that she becomes the primary decision maker once she joins has massive hangups over what she's doing. Joker has no such hangups and so generally keeps the group focused and on track.

Makoto really feels like your first officer. You make the big decisions, Makoto handles the work of making sure it goes off and keeping everybody in line when, like, Ryuji and Morgana decide to have a pissing contest because whatever dumb reason.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


Yeah, Futaba has the information/knowledge, but could you imagine her trying to actually organise the team into a plan, or even making a plan at all?

Makoto is smart, but what she brings to the team is mangerial skills.

Arbite
Nov 4, 2009

Our mare for President. The President who loses this war must buy himself and his counterpart custom titles of the winner's choice, and wear it for no less than a month. To the strongest



Eeesh, the pronunciation of Akiyama is the worst one of all!

Zvahl
Oct 14, 2005

Science Kitty Approves



Pork Pro

takamaki and sakamoto would like a word with you, and that word will be mispronounced

Arbite
Nov 4, 2009

Our mare for President. The President who loses this war must buy himself and his counterpart custom titles of the winner's choice, and wear it for no less than a month. To the strongest



Zvahl posted:

takamaki and sakamoto would like a word with you, and that word will be mispronounced

Those are bad but at least they're just poor emphases. Mishima calls it A-keema. Like a drat curry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kgkXn8Iwf4

Sockser
Jun 28, 2007

OBSERVE



Finished Royal last night

Did not manage to get Haru's third awakening, which is a bit of a bummer, but I didn't actually use her once in the third semester so I guess I don't care, still got her to 10, still romanced everyone.

The Royal content is... weird. It feels like it would be a better alternate final area than it does a post-yaldabaoth dungeon. Like, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the story of it, I enjoyed the characters reacting to it, it just felt incongruous with what came before it, but I think it would have felt totally appropriate post-Shido?

And I appreciated getting a call from my valentine's date on white day. Fun little touch, though I was expecting a repeat of the valentine's beatdown.

Really enjoyed Akechi in the third semester, though I was expecting a little more about him in the ending.

Overall, I enjoyed having more content, but I think it could have been worked into the middle of the story instead of tacked onto the end.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Sockser posted:

Overall, I enjoyed having more content, but I think it could have been worked into the middle of the story instead of tacked onto the end.

I think this is amplified by the fact that the Yaldo stuff is a total left-field thing after Shido, so doing another totally unrelated plotline feels even more disjointed from what 90% of the game was actually about

Sockser
Jun 28, 2007

OBSERVE



Honestly I think if the Maruki stuff came first and you reworked some of the heart of mementos/people imprisoning themselves stuff leading up to at Yaldo it could work out really well

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Pillbug

Shido -> Maruki -> Yaldy would have been best I think. First you have a man who thinks he is chosen by god to lead the people, then you have a man who believes (or at least acts like) he is a god to lead people, and then finally you actual god who says "enough of this poo poo." Their ideals also flow well in this order: Shido who cares about nobody but himself, Maruki who cares only about others happiness to a fault, and Yaldy who simply does not care and only wishes to impose order on chaos.

e. You could also then re-contextualize Yaldy's complaints about the idolatry of the masses in that they keep turning to outside figures to lead them from on high over and over and over: first the PT's, then Shido, then Maruki. Maybe after Maruki PT mania starts up again, and Yaldy's argument to Joker is "you've done this twice now and they're still just reverting back to relying on somebody else, this will never end no matter what you do so I'm stepping in to fix it."

In P4 news I just found out that party members don't level if you're not using them, and now Yosuke is like 10 levels behind the entire rest of the party because I didn't use him at all in Rise's dungeon.

Sydin fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jun 27, 2020

Geostomp
Oct 22, 2008

Unite: MASH!!
~They've got the bad guys on the run!~

Sydin posted:

Shido -> Maruki -> Yaldy would have been best I think. First you have a man who thinks he is chosen by god to lead the people, then you have a man who believes (or at least acts like) he is a god to lead people, and then finally you actual god who says "enough of this poo poo." Their ideals also flow well in this order: Shido who cares about nobody but himself, Maruki who cares only about others happiness to a fault, and Yaldy who simply does not care and only wishes to impose order on chaos.

e. You could also then re-contextualize Yaldy's complaints about the idolatry of the masses in that they keep turning to outside figures to lead them from on high over and over and over: first the PT's, then Shido, then Maruki. Maybe after Maruki PT mania starts up again, and Yaldy's argument to Joker is "you've done this twice now and they're still just reverting back to relying on somebody else, this will never end no matter what you do so I'm stepping in to fix it."

In P4 news I just found out that party members don't level if you're not using them, and now Yosuke is like 10 levels behind the entire rest of the party because I didn't use him at all in Rise's dungeon.

I like that order. You could even say that Marukiís cult activities were manipulated to make it easier for Yaldy to assert his full control over reality. It would be fitting for the step after rejecting a false Eden to be killing a false God.

Geostomp fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Jun 28, 2020

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


my only issue with that idea is that maruki's climax is mean to portray a twisted triumph of the human spirit while yaldabaoth is about the subordination of it, the former works better as a rebuke to the latter in terms of a big finale

it's sort of awkward no matter how you arrange it, which is a shame because both scenarios are pretty good

Geostomp
Oct 22, 2008

Unite: MASH!!
~They've got the bad guys on the run!~

Oxxidation posted:

my only issue with that idea is that maruki's climax is mean to portray a twisted triumph of the human spirit while yaldabaoth is about the subordination of it, the former works better as a rebuke to the latter in terms of a big finale

it's sort of awkward no matter how you arrange it, which is a shame because both scenarios are pretty good

This is why I think all the Maruki (and probably Kasumi) stuff should have been in a new game. Itís good, but tacking it on to the end of an already massive game only takes away from the focus to develop it. Yoshizawa especially because she feels super tacked on and has no interaction with the crew beyond fawning obsessively over Joker at every opportunity.

Geostomp fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jun 27, 2020

Psycho Mantits
Oct 6, 2009


I kinda liked the concept of Maruki filling in the power vacuum left by Yaldabaoth, and that the merging of Mementos and the real world is the only reason his powers were able to manifest the way they did. I just think in terms of stakes it sorta feels like an anti-climax to go from "literally killing god" to "once again making a misguided authority figure have a change of heart."

I also liked Yoshizawa as a character but do wish she had more interaction with the main cast. Also wish her appearance in the ending cutscene wasn't so abrupt, though "abrupt" is a very good description of that cutscene as a whole.

Still think Royal is a step-up from the original and I'm happy I got the Platinum. But there were a few things that could've been done better.

Psycho Mantits fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jun 28, 2020

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


Psycho Mantits posted:

I kinda liked the concept of Maruki filling in the power vacuum left by Yaldabaoth, and that the merging of Mementos and the real world is the only reason his powers were able to manifest the way they did. I just think in terms of stakes it sorta feels like an anti-climax to go from "literally killing god" to "once again making a misguided authority figure have a change of heart."

it makes sense because snuffing out yaldabaoth is suppose to leave ordinary people the freedom to self-actualize...which maruki immediately does, with potentially apocalyptic consequences. it's a good way of driving home that bringing down the demiurge doesn't permanently solve anything

you can say it's anticlimactic in terms of the actual threat portrayed, but i think the spectacle of adam kadmon's final showdown is more or less a match for what goes down against yaldabaoth

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Pillbug

I'd actually say that Maruki is more of a threat because of the temptation his world holds for the Thieves in general. It's easy to reject Yaldy's world when an express part of it is that he's going to wipe them out of existence, bit harder to stick to your guns when Maruki is offering all of them perfect lives free of any strife and where they all have their deepest desires actualized.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I'd probably still spoiler the 3rd semester stuff for now since Royal is still decently new.

Psycho Mantits
Oct 6, 2009


Oxxidation posted:


you can say it's anticlimactic in terms of the actual threat portrayed

Thatís pretty much exactly where my criticism is coming from, yeah. Thematically and in terms of spectacle it works really well, as you said.

Captain Walker
Apr 7, 2009

Mother knows best
Listen to your mother
It's a scary world out there


What a lovely epilogue that first week of the new year was. Got my trophy and everything! Happy ending for everyone!

On my main save, it's only January 12 and I just regained access to most of the game. Already I feel that the less overt and bombastic nature of the new threat is intentional; it's kind of the point. In P5 vanilla, the story is about reforming society by fixing lovely adults, right up until it's not on December 24th, and the only real justification is meta: "this is a JRPG and a Megaten game, the final boss needs to be capital-G God",, and even when that's dealt with, Sae shows up to ruin Christmas, unless you're headed for the third semester.

Yeah, the new villain's heel turn is visible from space, like P5 vanilla. This is because the writers are drawing your focus away from the actual twist, also like P5 vanilla, and I would argue that the scope of the new threat is potentially even more dangerous. I was genuinely surprised by a lot of things, Akechi's characterization chief among them. He turns himself in only to settle his debt with Joker. He rejects the new reality because he just got over being controlled by Shido and refuses to be brainwashed by Maruki too. He is abrupt and unsentimental in his interactions with the Phantom Thieves, because that's what he expects from anyone who sees him for what he really is. Society rejected him as a disgraced child; they should reject him as a killer whose bloodthirsty conduct in the Metaverse is just as unhinged as the actions of the people Loki turned psychotic.

Also, can't believe Atlus finally let me be gay with a handsome ManMona

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

I was curious about whether any liberty was taken with the translation of Marie's poems in P4G and was surprised to find that they're almost completely direct translations (which is good because those poems are great).

And Tyler Too!
Aug 15, 2007
JOCKEY OWNS

Stichelin it is, thank you!


Wow the fight against Maruki is an even worse version of the fight against Okumura. God drat that was the exact opposite of fun.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

Yukiko's blushing face is deeply disturbing.

And Tyler Too! posted:

Wow the fight against Maruki is an even worse version of the fight against Okumura. God drat that was the exact opposite of fun.

It was pretty tough; I beat it on the first try, but by that point I had all the strongest Personas because of the crazy new "summon Personas above your level" option. It would have been very difficult if I was limited to level 70-80 Personas.

edit: I actually liked the first phase, though. It was kind of fun trying to deal with the different conditions as the tentacles changed and line up Baton Pass combos.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«67 »