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MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


A common refrain you’ll often come across is that all shooting boils down to sights and trigger. In essence, if you can press the trigger straight to the rear without disrupting the sights while placing your sights where they need to be, within reason, you’ll hit the target every time. This is an easy concept to understand, however many people have trouble with the execution, particularly with pistols. Often the fastest way to improve is taking a look at your grip.
I consider grip to be the most fundamental of skills but often see it overlooked by newer shooters. They grab the gun but have never really learned how to set themselves up for mechanical advantage. A solid grip provides recoil mitigation, aids trigger control, as well as mitigates your natural wobble zone.

1. Core principles
i. High Grip
Ultimately we are trying to get as high up on the gun as possible while maximizing surface area coverage. When the gun recoils it wants to do so in a straight line. If it were possible, we would want to position our hands directly inline with the barrel but outside of a few edge cases, this is obviously not an option. The recoil force and handgun grip then act like a lever on a fulcrum and cause the gun to rotate. Most people who’ve worked with hand tools will know that if they want to produce more torque, they need a longer handle. The reverse is true as well; Shorter handle, less torque. By placing the hand as high as possible on the gun, we limit its ability to work against us. This is why you’ll hear some shooters talk about a preference for high bore axis when selecting handguns.

ii. Fill Space
Next we want our hand to cover as much of the gun as possible. The more surface we have covered, the more recoil force is eliminated due to friction. I usually teach this as ‘Fill space.’ The hands like to work together. Two hands operating separately are weaker than both hands touching each other. Again, this isn't a particularly difficult concept to understand, but many shooters don’t realize how much improvement can be had by not leaving anything on the table.
These principles are true regardless of the size of the individual. Below we have Steve ‘Yeti’ Fisher (national level instructor) and Tim Herron (Grandmaster USPSA). Both phenomenal shooters but opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to size. Note that both are using a very similar grip.


2. Dominant Hand Placement
I’ll be demoing this with my G19. Note that I have tiny Asian hands so if I can do this, most others can as well. I’m a lefty so flip this if you’re a right handed shooter.


I start by placing the web of my hand as high as possible on the grip. There should be no space between the top of your hand and the frame of the gun.


Next I personally align the barrel so that it is inline with my forearm. This has the advantage of using my forearm as bone support when shooting one handed and lets me draw the gun with minimal wrist movement, but does require you to break your wrist slightly when using two hands.


From there, I grip the gun putting most of the pressure between the middle joints of the fingers and the meaty part of the palm.


Now that your hand is in place, make sure you can still manipulate the trigger. Note that I can reach the trigger comfortably with my G19 but if I was to switch to my P226 I would have to rotate the gun in order to be able to run the double action trigger. In an ideal world you’d be able to reach the magazine release and slide stop, but priority is trigger and manual safety (if you have one) manipulation without having to break your grip. If this isn’t possible then the pistol in question may be too large for you.


3. Support hand
As the name suggests the support hand does the majority of work. Just as with the dominant hand, the idea is to get the support hand as high as possible while maximizing surface area. To accomplish this, I raise my dominant thumb up to open up space and with my support hand judo chop upwards aiming for the point where my middle finger meets the trigger guard. Once I make contact with the trigger guard I roll my wrist forward so that my support thumb is pointed forward. The support hand should be rolled forward enough that the pad of the dominant thumb is on top of the first joint of the support hand. I finish the grip by rolling both elbows outward, crushing the gun between both hands.


4. Arms and Elbows
Rolling the elbows out accomplishes two things; It increases grip strength by letting you use larger muscle groups besides just your hands and it prevents the elbows from working as a hinge against you. Instead the elbows are slightly bent to act as shock absorbers and help the gun recoil straight back rather than vertical. That being said if you lack the strength to allow proper cycling of the gun, it may be more beneficial to lock the elbows for additional support.


5. Common alternate grips (Names may vary)
i. Teacupping
Using the support hand to cup the dominant hand. This helps hold the pistol up, at the cost of less grip coverage and less recoil mitigation. Since most people are capable of supporting a 2 lbs weight with one hand, this is typically not a worthwhile tradeoff.


ii. Thumb over Thumb
Wrapping the support hand over the dominant hand such that the two thumbs are wrapped over each other. The support hand works with the dominant hand to crush the grip panels but leaves a lot of open space available towards the top of the frame. This is sometimes used when shooting cowboy revolvers as the free support thumb allows manipulation of the hammer without compromising grip.


iii. Tucked or Floating Support Thumb
This grip is very similar to the grip I demonstrated above. It achieves high placement as well area coverage. However this grip is a little more susceptible to horizontal deviation as the support thumb can act as a rudder to help steer the gun. Additionally, if the support thumb is too low, it can interfere with trigger manipulation.


iv. Art of the Dynamics
Popular in 2010 due to a certain set of DVDs, this grip goes even further and hyperextends the support wrist to place the hand even higher on the gun. While this sounds good in theory, I’ve found in practice this has a tendency to lock the support arm and roll the shoulder forward and creates asymmetry in your shooting platform. This can lead to the pistol tracking off to one side during recoil rather than straight up and down.


6. Diagnosing your grip
I mentioned before that every person's grip will be different just as each individual is different. How then, does someone adjust from this baseline? Go out and shoot, and pay attention to the result. Make sure to use clear metrics such as timers, scorable targets, and meaningful challenges. If you are struggling with a standard and making a change causes immediate improvement, we call that a clue. Video is a great way to see what you look like to a third party. Note that any change in how we do things will feel weird in the beginning and will only become familiar with practice.

i. Open Gaps and Milking the grip
One of the easiest diagnostic clues is if you have to adjust your grip as you shoot. This is known as ‘Milking the Grip’. You should be able get through a full magazine at speed without having to adjust at all. If you find yourself slipping, you’re not gripping the gun hard enough. Another thing you can do is either have you or a buddy check your grip after you shoot. Any gaps opening up between your hands can be an indication that there is room for improvement.


ii. Simulated recoil
Start with an unloaded gun. Verify that it is unloaded, double check, then MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO BULLETS IN THE GUN. Have a partner grip the slide and frame in front of the trigger guard standing out of the path of the muzzle. Then have them try to rotate the gun vertically. Note how well you are able to resist them. Adjust your grip and try again. I usually demonstrate this with students working my way down the list of alternate grips above and they usually come to the same conclusions.


iii. Tracking the sight
This requires a certain level of shooting experience and mental processing speed. If you cannot do this and the world disappears as the gun fires, that’s okay. Just keep this in mind as you start to develop the ability to call your shots and you’ll begin to be able to self diagnose. You want to pay attention to how the gun tracks under recoil. You should see the sight go straight up, reach an apex and return to exactly where it was. The gun will follow the path of least resistance. If you see the sights recoil high left or high right that usually indicates something is off and is worth investigating. Take note of how much vertical movement there is. Less oscillation is a result of the gun shooting flatter which decreases time needed between shots.

7. Drills
i. Bill Drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNoyUwj_ig
‘A’ zone or other appropriately sized target (I prefer 6” circles) at 7 yards. Draw and fire a string of six shots. This tests how well you can establish your grip at speed and how well you can maintain that grip. Anyone can shoot one or two good shots with a bad grip. Six is nearly impossible. Make sure to track your sights and note what you see. If you need to conserve ammunition you can do this with three rounds but your data will suffer accordingly. If you only want to test how well the grip is mitigating recoil, start on target.

ii. 1 Reload 1
Again start with an appropriate target at a reasonable distance (see above). Load one magazine with 1 round and another with an odd number of rounds. Shoot to slide lock, eject mag, reload and shoot. Swap the current mag for the now empty one and repeat. Reload drills are an excellent way to test your ability to reacquire a good support hand grip and also to improve your hand speed. Check your grip once you finish to verify that no adjustment is needed. As you get more confident, increase the rounds fired after the reload. Right now we’re not worried about the reload speed so much as making sure the grip is solid. This is an easy dryfire drill. Ensure that the gun and the mags are unloaded and just practice without bullets.

There are plenty of other non gun relation grip and wrist strength exercises that can improve your shooting ability but that is outside my wheelhouse and I’ll leave that to those who understand that better than I do. Hopefully this information is useful to new and experienced shooters alike. Then again, don’t trust the advice of a random person on the internet. Experiment, test this stuff out and come to your own conclusions. Take a class. Shoot competition. Find people better than you and pick their brain. Push yourself to a higher standard and get better.

::Update::
Further Information:
How to Grip a Handgun, Robert Vogel
John Lovell: How to Grip a Pistol Part1, Part2
Shannon Smith Pistol Grip Lesson
Ernest Langdon Teaches Proper Tactical Pistol Shooting Grip and Stance

TL;DR Grab high, fill space, don’t be lazy

Other gun nerd threads by MantisClaw:
Dick shots at 7 yards: A Flinching Effortpost
Stop Overthinking: A Stance Effortpost

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Sep 21, 2020

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my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

Thanks for this! I'm pretty experienced with long guns but I've only started shooting pistols within the last couple years and frankly I have no idea what I'm doing.

I can already tell just by messing around for a few minutes that this grip lets me find my red dot immediately when I first aim the gun a lot more often than what I was doing before. It also lets me know that I need to clip my fingernails

Is there a name for this grip style? You either don't mention it or I missed it.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


I've always known this as a 'thumbs foward' grip. That being said I've seen that same name used for a bunch of other styles as well.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




Oh man, thanks for this effort post. This is the type of poo poo I need to read.

It's nice to get the information without watching a 45 minute long Youtube video of a guy in a ball cap that may or may not get really uncomfortable in any manner of ways.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


Captain Log posted:

It's nice to get the information without watching a 45 minute long Youtube video of a guy in a ball cap that may or may not get really uncomfortable in any manner of ways.

Honest feedback question. Last time I did one of these a month ago, I threw in lot of those videos to source my work and prove that I'm not talking out of my rear end. This time I left them, more out of not wanting to curate youtube than a desire not to give credit where credit is due. Would you guys want me to add them into these posts to add context or is this style, where I primarily talk about my learning experience, preferred?

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




MantisClaw posted:

Honest feedback question. Last time I did one of these a month ago, I threw in lot of those videos to source my work and prove that I'm not talking out of my rear end. This time I left them, more out of not wanting to curate youtube than a desire not to give credit where credit is due. Would you guys want me to add them into these posts to add context or is this style, where I primarily talk about my learning experience, preferred?

I think it would be valuable for those of us wanting to dive deeper. But I’m not a guy that shoots a ton these days, so the concise and simple format is appreciated.

Personally, I get more out of something like this than a big old YouTube ramble. But a lot of those videos are off putting because the presenter is dry and without personality while editing/quality a nonexistent. But the Lucky Gunner videos? A good presenter with useful visuals in a short format is very watchable.

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


MantisClaw posted:

Honest feedback question. Last time I did one of these a month ago, I threw in lot of those videos to source my work and prove that I'm not talking out of my rear end. This time I left them, more out of not wanting to curate youtube than a desire not to give credit where credit is due. Would you guys want me to add them into these posts to add context or is this style, where I primarily talk about my learning experience, preferred?

For what you're trying to demonstrate this image and text format works better. However, if you find useful youtube videos, you might want to just link them at the end. You could call it the section that you referenced and/or further viewing. That way it doesn't get in the way of your instruction flow. Image, click, scroll, etc. works better for setting up grip step by step (You could actually make this into a powerpoint/google slides for easy one handed navigation). Video has less control and it gets annoying having to rewind.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Mar 29, 2020

Loan Dusty Road
Feb 27, 2007


On the support hand judo chop, did you mean index finger touching the trigger guard?

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

Maybe this is out of the scope of this thread and/or deserves its own thread but what's the latest thinking on stance when firing a handgun? I just kinda stand however feels best I guess but it'd be nice to know what the pros are doing these days.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


I judo chop the gun such that the top of my support index finger hits the point where my dominant middle finger meets the trigger guard, then I start the roll. Are you referring to the Lena Miculek grip where she runs her support fingers in front of the trigger guard?

If so that's obviously a valid technique if you've got the grip strength to pull it off. Separating the fingers like that allow her to get WAY higher on the gun than I can, but your fingers loose strength the further away they are from each other. Again the body wants to work together. In her case, she can pull it off, but I've personally don't get good results with that grip.

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Mar 30, 2020

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


For two handed shooting (i.e. not bullseye), I really like Bob Vogel's explanation of the grip. As a long time bullseye shooter, it took a bit of time to get used to but Bob's recoil control is insane.
Demonstrated here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

Bob with Taran demonstrating the grip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C3V9w_tl4k

EDIT: Sorry I didn't see that you updated the OP with a link to Bob's video.

Also, just for comparisons sake, here is Brian Zins discussing the proper one handed grip for centerfire bullseye
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/27/zins-on-bullseye-proper-pistol-grip/
Olympic bullseye with a ergo grip would be a different explanation

Yuns fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 29, 2020

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


It's a different video so it's all good. Everyone learns differently (see Log wanting simple pretty pictures), so if we can provide multiple approaches to the same topic everyone benefits . What I find more interesting is if you compare your video (2014) to the one I posted (2019) you can see he's made some subtle changes in how he grips the gun, mostly to do with thumb position. I'd be curious to pick his brain on that.

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 31, 2020

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



I like Pat Mac's quick video on pistol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g2-46CxSLA

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Pat touches upon a really interesting point in that video that is beyond the scope of this thread relating trigger finger placement. I know it goes toward pulling the trigger much more than the grip but a similarly eye opening video for me was the Rob Leatham videos on slapping the trigger.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



Yeah, it's not the first time I've heard someone say something similar about trigger finger placement. When I went to my former reserve unit's Advanced Pistol/Rifle course at Camp Bullis, TX (a two week vacation in awesome where we shot rifle all morning and pistol all afternoon), they taught something similar:

SARG Mythbusters document posted:

Finger Placement on the Trigger

Myth – “To shoot well you have to use the tip of your trigger finger.”

Fact – The only factor is can the shooter consistently press straight to the rear without disturbing alignment.

FM 3-22.9, Page 7-3, Figure 7-5
“The trigger finger (index finger on the firing hand) is placed on the
trigger between the first joint and the tip of the finger (not the extreme end) and adjusted depending on hand size, grip, and so on. . . . It is important to experiment with many finger positions during dry-fire training to ensure the hammer is falling with little disturbance to the aiming process.”

Both humans and firearms vary greatly in size and shape. To make a general rule that every person must index the controls exactly the same on every type of firearm is ridiculous. The only factor that matters anyway is that the trigger is moved straight to the rear without adding any addition motion. Start by taking a strong grip on the cleared firearm, letting the index finger lie across the face of the trigger wherever is natural, and pressing the trigger straight to the rear while watching and maintaining sight alignment.

If alignment can be maintained through the trigger press the shot will be true. The firearm doesn’t know or care what part of your finger you use.

Of course, when I told people about that at the time, they all thought it was heresy because how would a reserve unit know anything.

Then I went to a 5-day pistol/carbine Tigerswan course, which was at the time taught by Kyle Defoor, they hit almost all of the same notes that the SARG course did, including the point of natural trigger finger placement rather than forcing the first joint. Since then I've seen others like Pat Mac and Frank Proctor touch on the same thing. I've been real big on natural trigger finger placement ever since.

This was all like 10 years ago, cripes I feel old.

NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


Good writeup, I like it.

I like the same kind of grip, max coverage / max friction with the thumbs forward (with the caveat that I really like to knuckle down on a thumb safety if the gun has one) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTRjFCbkZ0 I'm also a trigger slapper lol

And pro tip - if you want to literally buy some skill use some of this. Especially if you main a plastic gun.
https://www.amazon.com/GRRRIP-Enhancer-Improve-available-12-Pack/dp/B00GFWCTXI/

my kinda ape posted:

Maybe this is out of the scope of this thread and/or deserves its own thread but what's the latest thinking on stance when firing a handgun? I just kinda stand however feels best I guess but it'd be nice to know what the pros are doing these days.

Contrary to proper grip (which feels wrong/uncomfortable at first) comfortable stances are usually good. 90% of proper handgun shooting is isosocles, body facing the target, arms equally extended with hands together at the gun, feet under your shoulders (toes slightly out), slight bias of the shoulders forwards to the target, head up also square to the target. This puts you in a good place for recoil control, for engaging any targets in front of you, and for moving. It's a quick position to get into and a quick one to get out of when you need to go.

If you do the exaggerated timmy stance - head down and forwards, shoulders really forwards, arms locked it is not very comfortable and not a great stance. Weaver might feel comfortable to certain people but it's worse than iso for most kinds of shooting.

NickBlasta fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Mar 29, 2020

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


The only thing is that trigger control is effected by so many different factors, it's not even funny. To do it any real justice you'd need to cover just about every aspect of shooting from psychological to physical. For example one of the things that many people don't realize is that changing your grip will force you to relearn how to pull the trigger. Ultimately unless you can first press the trigger consistency, it's hard to really figure out what is 'best'.

I pull the trigger 'incorrectly' according to modern handgun theory but I understand why it's taught that way and what the trade offs are. At it's core, trigger control boils down to Do the sights move when you pull the trigger. If the answer is no, then it doesn't really matter how you're doing it. You can argue speed or efficiency but I feel that it's kinda splitting hairs at that point and you can much more improvement elsewhere. Hell, I teach speed shooting by improving support rather then pulling the trigger faster.

I mean if TFR wants, I can do an effortpost on it. Alternately I can do one on carbines, since the last two months have been pistol focused. In the end, it's what you guys feel like you want to learn. One thing I'm finding is that typing all this out is actually improving my own shooting dramatically as this forces me to think back to all the fundamentals.

Where does TFR, especially those people who've never done performance based shooting before, want to go?

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 29, 2020

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK


Oven Wrangler

I think an effortpost on trigger control would be helpful for me but do whatever you would most enjoy writing. I appreciate all your effort!

NickBlasta posted:

Contrary to proper grip (which feels wrong/uncomfortable at first) comfortable stances are usually good. 90% of proper handgun shooting is isosocles, body facing the target, arms equally extended with hands together at the gun, feet under your shoulders (toes slightly out), slight bias of the shoulders forwards to the target, head up also square to the target. This puts you in a good place for recoil control, for engaging any targets in front of you, and for moving. It's a quick position to get into and a quick one to get out of when you need to go.

Awesome thanks, that's more or less what I'm already doing so that's perfect.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


NickBlasta posted:

Good writeup, I like it.


quote:

Contrary to proper grip (which feels wrong/uncomfortable at first) comfortable stances are usually good. 90% of proper handgun shooting is isosocles, body facing the target, arms equally extended with hands together at the gun, feet under your shoulders (toes slightly out), slight bias of the shoulders forwards to the target, head up also square to the target. This puts you in a good place for recoil control, for engaging any targets in front of you, and for moving. It's a quick position to get into and a quick one to get out of when you need to go.

If you do the exaggerated timmy stance - head down and forwards, shoulders really forwards, arms locked it is not very comfortable and not a great stance. Weaver might feel comfortable to certain people but it's worse than iso for most kinds of shooting.

I was planning to cover stance if this is useful enough for me to start writing about carbine stuff. I feel stance is more important when shooting bigger guns. Pistols generally don't recoil enough for it to be an issue. That being said I exaggerate my stance in practice so that when I start getting lazy or I compromise it during movement I still have a solid base.

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Mar 30, 2020

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




One of my goals this year has been to take a pistol course or shoot a newbie comp. I've shot for almost thirty years with varying frequency, but most of that is paper punching with some skeet and farm shooting tossed in. Even before Coronavirus, my life has some things that need to shake out first. But that should be done soon.

Stuff like this where I get to hear the experienced "dynamic" shooting goons talk shop is loving great.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

I can already tell that my shooting is going to improve after reading that. One thing that I haven't been focusing on in the least bit is getting my hand up as high as possible. That seems to be one of the most important things and I wasn't even thinking about it. There was a small gap I was leaving in the crook of my hand and I closed it. Just doing some dry firing right now and it's already improved a ton.

Thank you.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




This is a quality post.

One thing that's always been interesting to me is that different top-tier shooters will generally put their hands in the same place on the gun, but the actual gripping mechanics are different. This is all off the top of my head, and my shooting books are all packed atm, so forgive me if I misstate these.

Ben Stoeger: grip the poo poo out of the gun with your left hand. Just use your hands, no wrist or arm engagement. Right hand grips firmly.
Rob Leatham: Similar to Ben but use your pectorals to push your hands together
Bob Vogel: Hard pressure with your left hand that leads to that distinctive cant that he has
Mike Seeklander: counter-rotation of your hands, as if you're trying to crack a walnut between the heels of your palms.

I sat down with a Coolfire Trainer and tried all these different methods, seeing how the sights tracked when I applied grip pressure in different ways. Seeklander's method worked the best; I then verified in live fire. I could have done the experimentation portion in live fire, and ideally would have, but at the time I had a 4 month old so driving an hour each way to the good outdoor range where I could do USPSA poo poo wasn't in the cards.

poopgiggle fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Mar 30, 2020

NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


Seeklander's way easily produces the best recoil control for me, but my accuracy drops off. Stoeger's method works best for me overall. Idk why.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




NickBlasta posted:

Seeklander's way easily produces the best recoil control for me, but my accuracy drops off. Stoeger's method works best for me overall. Idk why.

For me, Seeklander's method produced very good accuracy on a B-8 at 25 yards, with the sights returning right to where I wanted. No shot timer because terrible indoor range, so I'm mostly relying on feel, which I know isn't great.

I need to wait until the country unfucks itself post-virus, we move into the new house, and I join a decent gun range in my new town to get it really dialed in. One variable I haven't tested at all is how this affects my target transitions. When I still did the tactical-turtle-with-my-entire-upper-body-tensed-up method of recoil control, it controlled recoil great but I transitioned very slowly.

Time Crisis Actor
Apr 28, 2002


I sexually identify as a fat tinder girl,

Yeah lemme just clean my pannus first.

These candles smell amazing btw


NickBlasta posted:

And pro tip - if you want to literally buy some skill use some of this. Especially if you main a plastic gun.
https://www.amazon.com/GRRRIP-Enhancer-Improve-available-12-Pack/dp/B00GFWCTXI/


I recently switched to an open gun with a metal grip. Do I still need to use pro grip?

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


poopgiggle posted:

When I still did the tactical-turtle-with-my-entire-upper-body-tensed-up method of recoil control, it controlled recoil great but I transitioned very slowly.

That's interesting. I switched to power isosceles because I wasn't getting recoil control I needed while doing the 'tactical porta-potty' stance. Not sure how transitions were back then. I could go back and watch what few videos I have of me shooting from that time period but I sucked so bad that its almost painful. We're talking '3+ second draws' kinds of terrible here.

MantisClaw fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 31, 2020

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Good posts, thanks for the thread.

Need to work grips a bit more to increase speed. Work qualifications valuing failures and reloads over speed means I've started shooting pistol quite a bit slower than I'd like to.

Loan Dusty Road
Feb 27, 2007


I recently realized I’m not gripping my guns nearly hard enough when dry firing. Fixing that. Also my XDE is so skinny that my dominant hand leaves a gap in the palm that you can’t see but I’ve always felt it. Put a hogue sleeve on with a palm swell and it feels like I can grip the gun sooo much harder now. Looking forward to getting out, whenever that may be, to try it all out. Until then I’ll keep drilling at home.

Thanks so much for this thread. I have small hands and hold my P226 the same so this is reassuring. What grips are on yours? I bought mine before the E2 grips existed. It was workable but not great. I swapped to the E2s a year ago and holy poo poo it is so much better.

Zhanism
Apr 1, 2005
Death by Zhanism. So Judged.

Great thread!

Question. You are suppose to grip hard. Should it be a death grip where your hands are so hard its shaking, which seems counter productive, or "firm" just under a death grip?

I know "hard" is subjective and depends on your grip strength, hand size etc.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



I've always been told with your firing hand, grip as hard as you can, but not to the point where you lose the fine motor control in your trigger finger. Takes some practice to figure out what that point is.

Nonfiring hand, crush the gently caress out of it.

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


Loan Dusty Road posted:

I recently realized I’m not gripping my guns nearly hard enough when dry firing. Fixing that. Also my XDE is so skinny that my dominant hand leaves a gap in the palm that you can’t see but I’ve always felt it. Put a hogue sleeve on with a palm swell and it feels like I can grip the gun sooo much harder now. Looking forward to getting out, whenever that may be, to try it all out. Until then I’ll keep drilling at home.

Thanks so much for this thread. I have small hands and hold my P226 the same so this is reassuring. What grips are on yours? I bought mine before the E2 grips existed. It was workable but not great. I swapped to the E2s a year ago and holy poo poo it is so much better.

Those are E2 grips. Grips feel can be a weird at times; Just because it feels better doesn't mean you shoot better. Back when I was running a P320, I picked up the small grip module cause 'small hands = small grip'. Nope. Worse control right off the bat. You have to be willing to put in the time to test stuff out and compare data.

Zhanism posted:

Great thread!

Question. You are suppose to grip hard. Should it be a death grip where your hands are so hard its shaking, which seems counter productive, or "firm" just under a death grip?

I know "hard" is subjective and depends on your grip strength, hand size etc.

The Rat pretty much nailed it. My mentors have talked about losing finger control at the higher end of your strength curve, but I'm not at the point where I've been able to verify it myself. I personally torque my elbows further away from each other if I need more pressure rather then squeeze harder if that makes more sense.

Zhanism
Apr 1, 2005
Death by Zhanism. So Judged.

MantisClaw posted:


The Rat pretty much nailed it. My mentors have talked about losing finger control at the higher end of your strength curve, but I'm not at the point where I've been able to verify it myself. I personally torque my elbows further away from each other if I need more pressure rather then squeeze harder if that makes more sense.

Thanks. Its hard to get out to the range. Pistol shooting is my worse and sometime I do really well and sometimes I just lose it and everything goes to hell.

Also, your name is perfect for this thread.

Edit: Also, thanks TheRat!

Time Crisis Actor
Apr 28, 2002


I sexually identify as a fat tinder girl,

Yeah lemme just clean my pannus first.

These candles smell amazing btw


Hate to see this thread fall off the front page.

I'm stalling really hard with Captains of Crush grippers. I've been following the Ironmind program, training twice a week, which looks like this:

• 1 set x 8–12 reps with moderate resistance (Sport)
• 1 set x 6–8 reps with moderately heavy resistance (Trainer)
• 1–2 sets x 4–5 reps with next level up (Trainer or No. 1)
• 1–3 sets x 1–3 reps with next level up (No. 1 or No. 1.5)
• 3 sets x 1 rep with heaviest one you can do

I can do the sets up to the No. 1, and get 6 closes on that with some effort. But for the life of me I can't close the 1.5 at all, and it has been like this for about a month. My goal (besides getting a better shooting grip) is to eventually close the No. 2 grip. Bob Vogel said that a person who can close the No. 2 has a strong shooting grip for any application.

What am I doing wrong? What should I change?

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


MantisClaw posted:

Those are E2 grips. Grips feel can be a weird at times; Just because it feels better doesn't mean you shoot better. Back when I was running a P320, I picked up the small grip module cause 'small hands = small grip'. Nope. Worse control right off the bat. You have to be willing to put in the time to test stuff out and compare data.
This thread sold me on the E2 kit even though it's a rare find these days. Had to import it and it won't be here until sometime next month, but I'm definitely pushing left on the stock grips.

Are P226 Hogue grips any thinner or is that just the Grey Guns set?

MantisClaw
Jun 3, 2011


Shumagorath posted:

This thread sold me on the E2 kit even though it's a rare find these days. Had to import it and it won't be here until sometime next month, but I'm definitely pushing left on the stock grips.

Are P226 Hogue grips any thinner or is that just the Grey Guns set?

Not sure, that gun came with E2 grips and I never changed them out for anything else.

One thing to consider is that horizontal stringing could either be a trigger control issue or you not gripping hard enough with the support hand (assuming your right handed.)

Dryfire using a vertical line as an aiming point and play around with how you press the trigger and grip the gun. This will help reveal any horizontal discrepancies in your shooting. Do the same once your grips arrive. At least then you have prior data to compare against.

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


Thanks, I have plenty of time to try that test tomorrow. The E2 isn't even in the country yet but with my range still being closed I might as well.

I can usually get the thing on target after a good warm-up at the range but that's slow-fire. Support hand grip also has something to do with it as I find double-tapping will put the second shot left, so the higher friction of the E2 should help. I have the same issue with left-pushing shots on my HK45C but at least that lines up perfectly with my forearm.

Peeches
May 24, 2018



Great post, thanks for the clear explanations and simple pics.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Question, I've noticed that on hammer-fired guns I frequently shoot right of center but striker guns I'm usually dead-on center. At first I was thinking it had something to do with the different pull characteristics of a hammer gun but then I realized that all of those hammer guns, I ride the decocker or safety with my firing hand thumb. Is it possible that doing that is causing me to torque it to the right as a lefty? So to the left if you're right-handed. It's not the standard low and left flinch, if I'm off vertically it's actually usually a bit up, but I'm usually pretty good vertically. I don't have a range near here that would be empty enough not to get the covids from anti-maskers, so I can't test any time soon, but I might try putting my thumb under the decocker/hammer instead next time.

Shumagorath
Jun 5, 2001


loving hell I'm still pushing to 7 o'clock on double-taps (and less so on single SA shots on a P226 / Mk25). I've trying the best I can to have a solid left grip with a broken-over wrist like Jerry Miculek shows, but I'm starting to think it doesn't work very well for this frame?

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ChuckDeNomolos
Jan 10, 2013

"For god's sake, man! Can you hear that? I know it seems like crying, and you always have crying in your head, but can you hear that?"


Is it possible to have a gun with too small of a gun to grip? I feel like with my VP9, even with the large backstop and side panels installed, I feel like my trigger finger is too goddamn long and I have really hook the hell of it to make sure I'm only making contact with the tip. If I try using my middle knuckle like my hand wants, I can't quite control it the same as the tip and will definitely torque the gun to the left. This also becomes a bigger issue when I try single stacks, like a 1911.

ChuckDeNomolos fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Oct 9, 2020

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