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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Caidin posted:

Nah, that's Harry Potter. Artemis Fowl leprechauns are basically just a swat team that also happens to enjoy some casual mind wiping.

I remember rolling my eyes at AF faeries a lot as a child, not really sure if they were as terrible as wizards though.

AF does actually acknowledge fairies are jerks and pretty morally grey at best, outright calling humans Mud People while having relocated their entire civilisation to the lower mantle to hide from them. (Fairies are also kinda vampires minus the blood drinking) They're also pretty racist towards each other. And the whole premise is about a tween genius human finding out about them and playing them for fools for cold hard gold bars. (also curing his mom's depression) I remember interested petering off with the later books but I did like them, they've got smart-rear end sense of humour and don't take themselves too seriously.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




galagazombie posted:

Yeah that whole scene was foreshadowing that that teacher was a fraud. Harry breaks his arm and the teacher "solves" it by magically disintegrating all Harry's arm bones. The nurse is all "Why didn't he just use the Immediatus fixus brokenus boneus spell that every idiot knows? Now I have to regrow them from scratch with this horrible potion". Which considering modern medical science can't regrow your skeleton, is still another point for abandoning science.

Funny thing is the whole implication is if you treat magic like science then you basically break it over your knee eventually, which is the whole basis of Hermione's character.


galagazombie posted:

They get around that (and also why muggle raised people like Harry don't immediately destroy wizard society with modernity) by saying that "technology" becomes more and more unreliable and prone to breakdowns the more magic poo poo is in the area. At one point Harry suggested recording someone with a microphone and gets told it won't work, because Hogwarts has so many enchanted doodads, ancient curses, and kids shooting off their wands, that anything techy will just short circuit or fall apart. And to be fair this makes a lot of sense for why wizards are so backwards. If you were a muggle-born wizard and you had to choose between just teleporting vs driving during rush hour, or between instantly healing injuries with a potion vs major surgeries and months of physical therapy, 99% chance you'd flip science the bird and never look back. Of course this brings up the question as to what counts as advanced enough to break down from magic. Indoor plumbing apparently works just fine, They have a Steam Train even if there's some excuse it runs on magic clean coal shat out by unicorns or something.

Impression I got, though I may be importing Dresden Files ideas (which has its own silliness but at least tries to be consistent in a bless-his-heart way) is that the wizard world is about 70 years or so behind the muggle one, since they have wireless radio, and given enough time and most of the old fuckers dying they eventually get the hang of technology and incorporate it into magic.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Roth posted:

Ron called once and Vernon got pissed that Harry gave out their phone number.

The Dursleys are generally super loving abusive especially in the early books; in the second or third book I think they've barricaded Harry in his room and the Weasleys have to break him out. (Luckily they know how to pick locks the non magical way)

Dudley actually gets a bit better later on, Dumbledore does point out at one point that as bad as the Dursleys treat Harry, at least he's functional, while Dudley becomes an obese spoiled brat until his school forces him to diet because he doesn't fit into his uniform anymore. A surprisingly common real life result of golden child/scapegoat dynamics. (though weirdly enough there's a E/N story where the adopted cousin becomes the spoiled useless golden child while their kids become the scapegoats)

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




He kinda does. Weirdly enough the Dementor attack seemed to have actually had a net positive effect on Dudley as he starts treating Harry way better and they're actually on speaking terms as adults.

Kinda the deal is they refuse to actually talk to Harry about anything and assume that everything that goes on his his fault, while Dudley actually sees enough first-hand to realise Harry's dealing with horrible and unknowable bullshit of a much larger world, and I imagine once they get to the point where the wizards are taking them into protective custody from verified magical murderers as he's starting to become an adult, he looks back on how his parents acted and realises how dangerously stupid they've been.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I read the title as 'Harry Potter and the big mistake'

galagazombie posted:

I'm going to actually defend Rowling on the Goblin thing under the same logic as to why I defend Tolkien about his Dwarves not being anti-semitic or similarly how the Ferengi in Star Trek aren't anti-semetic. Little greedy gremlin things that hoard wealth is a universal trope that exists outside of the cultures knowledge of even the existence of Jewish people. Just like Tolkien's Dwarves are lifted straight from Norse Mythology. Rowling's Goblins seem to me similarly pulled from all the Leprechauns etc. of folklore.

Jewish people aren't little greedy gremlins, it's that being a persecuted minority means Jews get saddled with the accusation of all bad traits and things like greed and hoarding money are pretty much universally despised traits throughout human history in all cultures. Bigotry of all stripes simply assigns "bad" traits to whoever it doesn't like. Seriously look at how many bigoted caricatures are identical across Sexism, Racism, Religious background etc. Theres's stereotypes in East Asia of white people being big-nosed and obsessed with money. The Ferengi in Star Trek are specifically meant to be modern White people and are even specifically called out as such. Which makes it even more hilarious when people accuse them of being Jewish despite them being most prominent in a series where they share all their screen time with aliens who actually are a metaphor for Jewish people (The Bajorans).

IIRC it didn't help that the Ferengi were often played by Jewish actors, but then again so's half of Star Trek. And the Vulcans are actually more Jewish inspired; the Vulcan Salute is half of an old Hebrew hand gesture. But their name is based on 'Farhang', an asian word (I forget exactly where) for white people. (originally based on 'Franks', aka French)

It's especially driven home in Ferengi focus episodes where their culture and society is shown to be often far more like modern Western capitalist society, complete with advertising jingles, parking meters, sexism and objectification, merchandise for children's media, etc, than the basically communist Federation.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sodomy Hussein posted:

As I recall a lot of actual Vulcan TOS lore is derived from Leonard Nimoy coming up with things, including by applying his Jewish heritage, which I believe is exactly how the hand signal came to be. Spock remains the coolest Star Trek character by about a mile thanks to Nimoy's work.

Like people are saying, Ferengi are antisemitic only in the sense that every greedy miser character is antisemitic if you work backwards from that conclusion. Cartoonishly anticapitalist is more like it.

Reminded of Scrooge McDuck, who may only be an exception because he's an otherwise forgotten stereotype of Scotsmen being cheapskates.


W.T. Fits posted:

Neville's case in particular becomes pretty hosed up in retrospect when you take into consideration what happened to his parents and why he was raised by his grandmother in the first place.

There is a bit where Harry meets Neville's parents in the hospital and realises that Neville probably deserves more sympathy than he does all things considered.

Harry Potter does have some good bits in it, I feel, they just don't come together as well as they could. Might be why it's so popular for fanfiction and rewrites.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




There is a whole thing about how the prophesy Voldemort acted on was a bit of an either/or thing; Neville could have taken Harry's place as basically a coin flip on Voldemort's part.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sleeveless posted:

It's a decent attempt at trying to reconcile how problematic Chosen One narratives are by making it so that there was nothing intrinsically special about Harry. Aside from his family's wealth and privelege of course, but even then Neville covercomes all that to basically be Harry's equal and carrying on his work at Hogwarts in the final book.

The movies got so lucky that Neville's actor grew perfectly from a round-cheeked doofus to a goddamn action hero

Butternubs posted:

I always got that the prophecy was a kind of self fulfilling thing. If Voldemort just ignored it then he would have been fine but he's a big bitch who's too scared of dying to leave it alone.

It also comes up in a later book as Harry and Dumbledore are searching for Horcruxes, Harry suggests he might have just made a random rock in a quarry a Horcrux and no one would ever find it, but Dumbledore says the thing is Voldemort is a massive egomaniac and drama queen who would never make a Hocrux out of an object that wasn't unique and special.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




MonsieurChoc posted:

Nah, American magic is Freemasons and weirdo secret societies in the east coast, decaying plantations racists in the south, and the Magical Equivalent of Techbros in the West.

Prob best that she didn't try to get into voodoo

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I don't think open warfare was necessarily the idea nor necessary; wizards have mind control and memory wipes, and through a painting that can't be removed have access to 10 Downing Street. And all of their communities are completely hidden from the world.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Always felt like part of the joke was the Death Eaters espouse pureblood supremacy but spent most of their time wiping out so many pureblood families that there's even fewer ways they can keep going without having kids with muggles.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Reminded of the bit bit where Harry asks why Dumbledore never made him a prefect or anything and Dumbledore says he thought Harry had enough on his plate without more petty bullshit like that.


SlothfulCobra posted:

Isn't it supposed to be a more weirdly specific thing about English classism where the muggle-born are the nouveau riche whereas the purebloods are either generationally wealthy or they're weird artifacts of the system that don't have much wealth left but still count as upperclass? And then it's very narrow and specific, since the other class divides in the wizarding world are portrayed as mostly cool and good.

It's specifically a class thing with old purebloods as the aristocracy, though as in real life the feudal ruling class aren't necessarily very rich.

Being British basically involves growing up with all these things as cute quirks of society without actually thinking about the implications.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Snape is literally just a grown man in a position of authority being openly pissed at a pre-teen because he didn't get to gently caress his mom.

There's a whole bit where Snape is the only one who can teach Harry about psychic defenses and doesn't really work because he hates Harry so much, and when Snape switches jobs and a better Potions teacher comes out of retirement Harry suddenly does a whole lot better at it. Snape is a lovely teacher.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




FunkyAl posted:

Selling weed to hufflepuffs


W.T. Fits posted:

No self-respecting Hufflepuff smokes weed they bought from someone else when their head of house is also the teacher for herbology.

was gonna say, that sounds like the wizard equivalent of selling ice to eskimos

though that sounds weird now that ice is a widespread australian term for crystal meth

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I'd say Rowling should just farm her poo poo out to ghost writers to create a massive terrible beta canon to expand her fortune with, but I guess the fanfic already has that covered.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I suppose that's kind of what they tried to do with Fantastic Beasts but lol

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised





This is the funniest thing she's ever written and it certainly wasn't on purpose

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sydin posted:

If you hold the stated workings of wizard society up to anything beyond cursory scrutiny it completely falls apart so

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Hodgepodge posted:

i don't know anything about the ancient magus' bride, but based on the artwork the ancient magus is like a badass wendigo or some poo poo so i was really hoping the bride part was actually 'apprentice' and not '4-chan poo poo' but wasn't holding out hope because anime will betray you on that one

Wizards being weird horny rear end old perverts going after way younger women who just want to learn magic is way older than anime

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Yeah, when you're actually rooming and boarding several hundred students, on top of staff, and have sports facilities, greenhouses, extensive grounds, and magical creature pens and such, all the space requirements add up. And then there seems to be room left over; Hogwarts DOES seem implied to be oversized, even without getting magical bigger-on-the-inside effects involved, with enough leftover rooms to hide a few plot devices.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Hunter Noventa posted:

I don't remember if this is fanon or not, but I think the implication is that classes are smaller for Harry and company because of all the murder that was going on.

It is outright said at some point that a shitload of Hogwarts' non-Muggle-born students know at least one relative who got murdered by Voldemort and his crew, and some entire families were wiped out. Said before, the irony being that Voldemort basically ensured that wizards had to start having kids with muggles or die out from inbreeding.

MonsieurChoc posted:

Ravenloft has hilariously low population, something like 6000 for an entire realm.

Sharn is supposed to be this huge magitech metropolis with giant sky-scraper-like towers. 200 000 is huge if you're going for medieval fantasy, but Industrial Revolution-era london had between 1 and 3 million people in it.

Ravenloft is at least a special case given it's basically patchworked together from places in other planes that got gothic enough.

Should be obvious at this point that RPG writers don't read history books.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Tulip posted:

I don't know why I'm defending Eberron I think it's poo poo and that's probably exactly the problem with Eberron cities: they invented trains but didn't invent sewage systems so by 200k people you're just drowning in poo poo.

The biggest cities in Glorantha are like 100,000 but Glorantha isn't also trying to have 21st century style potemkin bureaucracies, it's explicitly bronze age.


Yeah, point is that 200k is pretty justifiably "fuckin big" pre-modern sewage, though a lot of the time its pretty arbitrary cuz you can expand the borders of a city in comical ways.

I'm reminded of a D&D campaign where I had the opposite reaction where a rather small town had surprisingly large sewers, and the DM just said the locals had their priorities straight.


Sydin posted:

I like how everybody immediately knows Ron's lineage at a glance. I guess the Weasleys are the only red-headed wizards in all of London.

They aren't just redheads but full on gingers iirc, and the Weasleys are kinda everywhere. I figure most wizards guess any ginger wizard is probably a Weasley and they happen to be right with Ron.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




It's one of the stronger parts of the series really, that it's openly about people being damaged and emotionally unstable and making mistakes because of that, not just because the story requires them to. Instead of photogenic melodrama, 'teen angst' results in an absolute mess because everyone's angry, horny and petty.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Harry is implicitly pretty horny iirc. Mind you, it's probably for the best all the teenagers aren't as sexualised as most other authors and animes would make them.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




One of the big themes in young adult fiction, with Harry Potter being absolutely no exception, is the absolutely familiar feeling to teenagers that adults are completely loving useless at dealing with problems, and there's a good chance telling them about your problems or god-forbid asking for help will make them either ignore you, actively use them against you, or charge in to make them worse.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Snape is the fantasy of the horrible abusive teacher/parental figure really caring for you deep down.

Sydin posted:

They're fine. That said as I've already stated if you want an easily digestible YA-ish story about wizards living alongside modern society, read the Bartimaeus Trilogy for a much better story. I burned through the first book in a couple lunch hours this week and it holds up exceedingly well.

If you are going to read Harry Potter then make sure sure you buy the books second hand or find them online through uh, other means, because Rowling is a TERF piece of poo poo and doesn't deserve a cent of your money.

Luckily, the insane popularity of the franchise means it's not exactly hard to borrow the books from someone you know or the local library.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




As said, this is one of those things that is just normal for British boarding schools.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Reminded that there has been at least one take in City of Heroes where superpowered Chinese were persecuted by the Cultural Revolution, which doesn't seem too far fetched.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Am reminded for some reason people are convinced Umbridge was gang-raped by centaurs. Probably because horny. I'm pretty sure the way less skeevy and more believable and deserving thing is they gave her a good ol' rope-haul.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




It's ambiguous. I think it's meant to be a very poorly understood field of magic. It is a running gag that a lot of Trawnely's off-hand predictions come true though, and the visions she constantly has of Harry dying tend to come true except for the dying part.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




There is the irony that Ron's vision in the mirror ends up coming true- Head Boy of Gryffindor, captain of the quiddich team, etc.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sydin posted:

It would be even funnier and incredibly on brand if this were the case and Hogwarts still had a multi-year elective class in divination that was a complete waste of time for the vast majority of students with no gift for it.

I mean like half the thread has been talked into doing into massive debt for bigger wastes of time

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Dumbledore starts out as just like, stereotypical goofy Disney's Merlin type, and it's another question just how many of those stereotypes also happen to be gay ones.

I do remember one bit possibly at the end of Goblet of Fire where Harry is super pissed and smashing some of Dumbledore's office knicknacks and Dumbledore comes in and goes "Do please continue destroying my possessions, I have far too many."

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Funny thing is she could always just write more books where all the witches kiss witches and the wizards kiss wizards but noooo

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Tonks doesn't really strike me as a name for boobs

If anything, given her low-level shapeshifting, it implies other things

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




A lot of episodes handle some serious topics in a jokey way; the one with Mr Smith the secretive boarding house resident is basically 'What's He Building In There' with a message about how it's perfectly fine for people to be private, and the make-up party where Helga calls out how hosed it up is that a bunch of nine year olds are using anti-ageing skin products. There's a lot of messages about having a functional family and community, respecting each others' differences, and even coping with a dysfunctional upbringing.

I think one of the key things of healthy and unhealthy children's media, and why say, Sesame Street is still loved while Barney is hated, is whether it's actually willing and able to tackle negative feelings and show how they can be dealt with in a healthy way.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I thought the city was New York when I was a kid. It does have a subway, I'm not sure if any PNW cities do?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Its a completely fictional city called Hillview but its an amalgam of Portland (where Criag Bartlett went to college), Seattle (where Craug Bartlett grew up) and Brooklyn (where Craig Bartlett used to live).

I swear hes said its geographically in the PNW on Reddit but I don't know how he would square that with it being a site in the American Revolution.

Yeah, I thought it was a mixup of a few cities. Pretty common with cartoon cities, see Duckburg. It's a pretty convenient way to use exactly the details you want without getting people bugging you, and can broaden appeal.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Helga's family is interesting. They clearly aren't entirely negative, not to the point of active abuse anyway, but Bob is clearly thoughtless, domineering and thinks being an arrogant bully is the only way to make it in the world, while his wife is a checked-out alcoholic. Helga's treated as an afterthought most of the time.

They seem to be a pretty clear case of boomer parents- they've got all the things they're supposed to; a profitable business, a comfortable lifestyle, a successful child, and don't spare a moment to think about why they're not happy. Helga's still just dealing with these contradictions, since no one's sparing a moment to take care of her, she just figures this is how it's supposed to be- but then Arnold comes along, and he's happy, he's positive and supportive of people around him.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Helga's mom certainly drinks a lot of 'smoothies'. One of those things that is clearly meant to sneak past the censors but be obvious in hindsight. A lot of 90s cartoons did that.

Beepers are apparently still a thing for medical workers and firefighters. Makes sense that Bob rode the wave when they first got useful, opinions vary on whether he'd be able to keep himself afloat once they become obsolete. (or at least no longer in active use) He is shown testing out other experimental technology, though it's mostly crap, he's at least trying.

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