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Proud Christian Mom posted:let me make this absolutely clear: if you offer people nothing, you will get nothing in return. Biden is objectively better than Trump at minimum for actually acknowledging that we're in the middle of a pandemic. Still not making a good excuse for the not gonna vote crowd.
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Aug 31, 2020 19:17
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Proud Christian Mom posted:this is because both parties champion conservative causes which has effectively driven the left out of politics you've got cause and effect backwards. the US population as a whole is moving towards more liberal, but the portion of the population with extremely outsized political power has grown much more conservative. when dems have pushed progressive policy in the past, they get punished for it because the minority segment has all the power and they react harshly against it. these are politicians we're talking about, after all- as craven and opportunistic as anyone, and they will not continually push policy that will see them removed from power. it's not some conspiracy to shove liberal policy to the right, it's an effect of the levers of power working against them. i'm not gonna blanket defend every action of the DNC cause they do some horrendous poo poo from time to time, but acting like they are intentionally driving conservative policy is disingenuous at best.
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Aug 31, 2020 19:44
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brains posted:acting like they are intentionally driving conservative policy is disingenuous at best. This is what makes it hard to take seriously.
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Aug 31, 2020 19:46
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Mustang posted:This is what makes it hard to take seriously. Everything is based on the current conservative position for some reason. Everything left of libertarians is under the massive ridiculous umbrella of "the left" to most of the country. I bet Biden legitimately thinks he's a liberal.
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Aug 31, 2020 19:59
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I wonder if people had voted for Bernie if politicians would have responded or continued to try to ratfuck him.
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Aug 31, 2020 20:09
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Godholio posted:Everything is based on the current conservative position for some reason. Everything left of libertarians is under the massive ridiculous umbrella of "the left" to most of the country. I bet Biden legitimately thinks he's a liberal. He is, as are most Republicans.
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Aug 31, 2020 20:16
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brains posted:you've got cause and effect backwards. the US population as a whole is moving towards more liberal, but the portion of the population with extremely outsized political power has grown much more conservative. when dems have pushed progressive policy in the past, they get punished for it because the minority segment has all the power and they react harshly against it. the us population is more liberal on social issues but not economic ones.
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Aug 31, 2020 20:35
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Mr. Nice! posted:I wonder if people had voted for Bernie if politicians would have responded or continued to try to ratfuck him. they would have fallen inline out of self preservation
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Aug 31, 2020 20:37
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Mustang posted:Biden is objectively better than Trump at minimum for actually acknowledging that we're in the middle of a pandemic. the onus is on the politician to get voters to vote for them. You are accomplishing nothing by yelling at people that don't like biden's policies. Post here with Biden's policies positions and explain to me why I should support them or work to pressure biden to change his policy positions for the better. PookBear fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Aug 31, 2020 |
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Aug 31, 2020 20:38
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PookBear posted:If anyone doesn't want to vote for biden then the fault lies with biden and not the voter. I don’t think Biden was ever going to win over the vote of Don Jr.
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Aug 31, 2020 20:40
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mlmp08 posted:I don’t think Biden was ever going to win over the vote of Don Jr. i really want a hunter biden/don jr reality show
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Aug 31, 2020 20:42
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Mr. Nice! posted:I wonder if people had voted for Bernie if politicians would have responded or continued to try to ratfuck him. It would have been corbyn v2, every news cycle would be dominated by a different Bernie "scandal" and if he won after all that a lot of powerful Dems would openly caucus with republicans. I still think that would be a better outcome though. Pretending that centrism isn't ideology is what got us here in the first place imo
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Sep 1, 2020 05:40
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mlmp08 posted:None of what’s quoted says “left votes don’t matter.” If/when Biden loses, you can just tap the sign that says 'Don't put a gun ban on the platform when trying to win rural swing states.' Everyone knows it's not going to get through Congress even if he wins, but in putting it out there he hits the one, single issue that's a knee-jerk no for a lot of moderate conservatives and fence sitters.
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Sep 1, 2020 06:00
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PookBear posted:the onus is on the politician to get voters to vote for them. You are accomplishing nothing by yelling at people that don't like biden's policies. Post here with Biden's policies positions and explain to me why I should support them or work to pressure biden to change his policy positions for the better. Proud Christian Mom posted:because thats not how voting works. yall should really look more into this if you want to win elections again. I keep getting déja vu moments because we've had the exact same discussion over and over again in the past, in this very thread, no less. We've had the "Biden will be worse than Trump" discussion, we've had the "Stop telling me to vote for 'your' candidate" discussion", we've had the "impacts and consequences of not voting in a FPTP/WTA system" discussion. And we're here again, reading how voting in the US is something like a buyer's market, and you punish sellers you don't like by not buying their product, and that sure shows them. ...and then a literal fascist wins the election. No one is "yelling at you" because you don't like Biden's policies, and no one is yelling at you to "support Biden". I'm fairly sure everyone in GiP is aware of Biden's policies, and no one "likes him" or his choice of running mate. But I'm also fairly sure everyone in GiP that you claim is yelling at you is also very aware that there is a literal fascist in power and needs to be removed. Not voting for conscientious reasons is absolutely your choice, but if you keep running back the argument that abstaining from voting is the the rational choice, then you'll have people asking what your rationale is / pointing out that it's not. We've discussed before that this is a lovely situation, but again: There are actual fascists in power in your country.
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Sep 1, 2020 06:49
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm genuinely worried that I'm going insane because none of your posts make sense to me, so I guess i"m just gonna take another break again. I'm exhausted and a little drunk--this may all be gibberish. I disagree with you a lot Fister, but I think you're frustration with the logic is valid. After thinking about it throughout the day, I don't think you're wrong. You're not going insane. The arguments that were provided were somewhat self defeating. If it is true that far-left voters in left-leaning states will not swing the vote one way then they're not in much danger of swinging them another and, if you're in one of those states, then the risk posed solely by your not voting for the sole challenger to Trump is very low.* What I think is happening is this: mlmp (who's doing most the heavy lifting earlier in the thread), and the pro-vote-for-Biden-stop-Trump side of the argument are recognizing that this is the same logic used to dismiss any individual vote. We've been conditioned to not accept that logic, with or without convincing argument. It is true--no individual vote is likely to matter. The chance that any one election is split by one vote is exceedingly low and not likely to occur. But we know that the perpetuation of this idea is dangerous, because, if shared by enough people, it can affect electoral results. Because people have recognized this danger, they've come up with all sorts of methods to combat this, even if a pure argument cannot be sufficient, because we don't have a good answer to that logical conundrum. It's kind of like a Law of the Commons or Prisoner's Dilemma problem. Why should any individual vote? Any one person's individual vote is unlikely to matter. So this narrative has been combated in a couple of different ways. First is by convincing people that your vote communicates something important to the political establishment which, even if true, has not been realistically weighed in our minds. We have not analyzed the cost and effect of voting for a 'protest vote' or an independent party--we just take it on faith that it's meaningful, because it's valuable to the overall group that people believe voting has value. The second readily apparent strategy was to subject us all to propaganda and argument to convince us that all votes have value. Because again, at scale, they do even if individually, they don't. I think most of the people trying to argue for voting for Biden despite disagreements then are people who have internalized this propaganda and argument, and, because the ideas are so deeply ingrained without having been justified to them, they're struggling to create a convincing argument or even understand why you would need one. It's like trying to convince someone why violence is bad--most of us operate from the precept that it's bad without necessarily having the necessary language to justify why. If my logic here isn't flawed, then it's not a big deal that any of you don't want to vote for Biden--it's unlikely to have any measurable effect. But the reason I think people argue so vehemently is that the idea exists and can shared with many people and, because of that, may continue to spread or grow until it does increase the risk.** Or may have already have done so. *to simplify, I'm ignoring comparing downballot voting, not because I don't think the downballot is important policially, but because I think people would still take issue with, "I'm going to go in there and abstain in the presidential, but vote on the downballot. **Example: see protest-voting or joke-voting for Brexit.
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Sep 1, 2020 08:28
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I don't really care if you, individually, don't vote for Joe. I do think it is disingenuous and therefore annoying to pretend that sitting out does anything other than increase Trump's chances. (e: toned this down a bit) Incidentally, I've seen the arguments for why ACKSHUALLY Trump winning would be better for progressive causes, but it always ends up feeling like some thin veneer of principle to justify bitter nihilism or Cool Zone horniness. Discussion Quorum fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Sep 1, 2020 |
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Sep 1, 2020 11:43
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Individuals not voting is kind of whatever, unless you're in a swing state. But if a prominent left position becomes "I will vote in the primary and then when I will lose, I will quit or post online or on twitter," I don't think that's a good long-term strategy for building power. Accelerationists can gently caress off, though. Best case, they're merely wrong out of ignorance, worst case, they're in a position of relative privilege and won't be the first ones smashed by accelerationism, so it becomes a selfish political experiment.
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Sep 1, 2020 13:10
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Really the only argument you can make for Joe. https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1300418309683400707
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Sep 1, 2020 14:33
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Duzzy Funlop posted:
Yes, they are. Edit: Well, internet yelling. They may or may not be actually yelling at their keyboards I don't know.
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Sep 1, 2020 15:07
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Trains are neat  Biden is a tourniquet. Nobody is happy to have to wear a tourniquet. I just still haven't seen a convincing argument for "doesn't matter" or "Biden would be worse." Just variations on "ha ha this'll show you" or "this way to the Coooool Zone." I'm being flippant because this is a dead comedy forum, but I really don't see how 4 more years of Trump does anything but further embolden and entrench power of the reactionaries. My urge to internet yell is mostly restricted to the people who insist I'm only voting Biden because I want to go back to brunch, though.
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Sep 1, 2020 15:51
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I think tourniqiet is far too generous a description for Biden
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Sep 1, 2020 15:54
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Biden isn’t going to do dick all to stop the entrenchment and emboldening of the far right, as evidenced by the Obama/Biden administration being in power when the stage was set for this mess
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Sep 1, 2020 15:55
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piL posted:I'm exhausted and a little drunk--this may all be gibberish. Thanks for posting this. I don't really have much to respond with because I mostly agree with your analysis. I should probably try to articulate my position on this, which might be difficult because a) that takes effort and I'm really loving lazy b) years of posting on this dumb website have conditioned me to feel like more than a few sentences constitutes a meltdown and c) brain problems??? I'm almost certainly going to vote for Biden. I think that that vote is 100% meaningless, because I live in Colorado, and if Colorado flips red, even by a single vote, then it will mean Trump winning an electoral landslide. I mainly just want to use this thread to blow off steam about my frustration at all this. I loving hate Biden, and I'm sure everyone else does too, but it's still frustrating when people barge in here to remind me that Trump is worse. When I try to point out ways that Biden might be worse than Trump (please not that when I do this I'm not saying he'll be worse in EVERY way), they don't bother to actually read what I'm saying, they just react with incredulity. Because they've built it up in their head that Trump is literally the worst thing to ever happen to America (extremely debatable, he's not even the worst thing to happen in recent memory), so to them it's literally impossible for someone to be worse in any way. It makes me worried about the next four years, and how much damage Biden could cause under the cover of "at least he's better than Trump". Really I just need this to get these dumb thoughts out of my head so they don't just fester in there. I'm not saying this thread should be a safe space or whatever, just maybe that people could take their responses down a notch or two? Like I'm sure they don't mean to but a lot of folks' posts come across as either needlessly hostile or patronizing. Maybe I'm just being needlessly contrarian, but I think that's just the way I am. Whatever, gently caress it, I hate everything. Gimme that loving frosty.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:51
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Discussion Quorum posted:Biden is a tourniquet. Nobody is happy to have to wear a tourniquet. I just still haven't seen a convincing argument for "doesn't matter" or "Biden would be worse." Just variations on "ha ha this'll show you" or "this way to the Coooool Zone." No one is trying to convince you. If there's one thing the last 4 years has taught many people is that it doesn't matter what the real history of a politician is. It's someone's feelings about that politician that matter. Case in point this thread, where many people ignore or infantilize any reason they are given as to why folks might not vote for biden.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:53
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I think the tourniquet analogy is only valid if you acknowledge that the only reason we have to use a tourniquet is because we threw away all the bandages.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:55
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Fister Roboto posted:I think the tourniquet analogy is only valid if you acknowledge that the only reason we have to use a tourniquet is because we threw away all the bandages. We can't afford the surgeon and sutures to actually close the wound because ~who would pay for that~
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Sep 1, 2020 17:07
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Fister Roboto posted:I think the tourniquet analogy is only valid if you acknowledge that the only reason we have to use a tourniquet is because we threw away all the bandages. It's like folks tossing out "A few bad apples" about cops are forgetting the rest of the saying.
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Sep 1, 2020 17:42
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https://twitter.com/KateSullivanDC/status/1300493746203774977 oh we know Joe, we know.
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Sep 1, 2020 18:19
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Duzzy Funlop posted:There are actual fascists in power in your country. yes and theyve been there long before Trump
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Sep 1, 2020 18:21
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I’m glad the German is here once more to lecture us about how we can definitely count on the Libs to side with the left against the fascists once they take power
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Sep 1, 2020 18:38
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Internet Wizard posted:I'm glad the German is here once more to lecture us about how we can definitely count on the Libs to side with the left against the fascists once they take power Make your points without being an rear end in a top hat. It doesn't win you any style points, only "can't post for awhile" points.
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Sep 1, 2020 18:42
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Duzzy Funlop posted:
biden was friends with storm thurmond
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Sep 1, 2020 19:27
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https://twitter.com/axios/status/1300766077153140737?s=21 Shame the dems suppressed their faction that is willing to get into the streets.
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Sep 1, 2020 19:35
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How do people think that Biden is going to handle the riots? Especially when the Republicans and RWM start screaming that he's "soft on looters", and the moderate suburban voters that he wants to keep happy get antsy?
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Sep 1, 2020 19:39
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piL posted:I'm exhausted and a little drunk Thread title, please
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Sep 1, 2020 19:40
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Fister Roboto posted:How do people think that Biden is going to handle the riots? Especially when the Republicans and RWM start screaming that he's "soft on looters", and the moderate suburban voters that he wants to keep happy get antsy? Honestly, a pretty easy and risk-averse way would be to say it’s a local government issue and basically ignore it. Doesn’t fix things and punts the issue, but isn’t deployment of unbadged federal law enforcement. Incidentally, the 2016 GOP platform had a section bitching about overuse of federal law enforcement for local problems, but those ideas are ignored in the post-Trump GOP.
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Sep 1, 2020 19:43
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When we still have covid and riots in six months and the economy is worse, pretty good chance Biden will be incredibly unpopular. He doesn't have the 42% of the country in his thrall like Trump.
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Sep 1, 2020 19:55
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Best Friends posted:When we still have covid and riots in six months and the economy is worse, pretty good chance Biden will be incredibly unpopular. He doesn't have the 42% of the country in his thrall like Trump. That’s huge for the 1 March 2021 election...?
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Sep 1, 2020 19:56
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mlmp08 posted:That’s huge for the 1 March 2021 election...? It's huge for all the crazy people with guns who will go "well, time for me to take matters into my own hands since antifa just took over the white house."
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Sep 1, 2020 20:25
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mlmp08 posted:Incidentally, the 2016 GOP platform had a section bitching about overuse of federal law enforcement for local problems, but those ideas are ignored in the post-Trump GOP. You know that this was in reference to the ATF and BLM going after the Bundys.
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Sep 1, 2020 20:29
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