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Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


The idea that Biden isn't going to change anything is ridiculous because he's already changed the people's hearts

https://twitter.com/cameron_easley/...4085961728?s=19

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Arven
Sep 23, 2007


Fun Shoe

I skim most of the democrat leaning network news sites daily, and the entire news cycle went from "gently caress, we can't bury this anymore - here's 20 articles about why as a surprise sex survivor I'm still voting for Biden" to "Tara Reade is a career con artists Bernie Bro" to mostly burying the story again in the span of about 48 hours. I'm about to check out politically for the next 6 months because this poo poo is exhausting and nothing anyone can say will make me vote for Biden.

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



Arven posted:

I skim most of the democrat leaning network news sites daily, and the entire news cycle went from "gently caress, we can't bury this anymore - here's 20 articles about why as a surprise sex survivor I'm still voting for Biden" to "Tara Reade is a career con artists Bernie Bro" to mostly burying the story again in the span of about 48 hours. I'm about to check out politically for the next 6 months because this poo poo is exhausting and nothing anyone can say will make me vote for Biden.

Ugh. Speaking of:

https://twitter.com/deepa_shivaram/...6930686977?s=21

This is the real danger of Biden to progressivism: supporting Biden is going to make progressives choose to abandon their beliefs. Bill Clinton did the same thing to the party.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Best Friends posted:

Ugh. Speaking of:

https://twitter.com/deepa_shivaram/...6930686977?s=21

This is the real danger of Biden to progressivism: supporting Biden is going to make progressives choose to abandon their beliefs. Bill Clinton did the same thing to the party.

Haha, remember 1000 years ago when everyone was convinced that Bernie Sanders was a hateful misogynist based on her word alone? Good times.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Fister Roboto posted:

Haha, remember 1000 years ago when everyone was convinced that Bernie Sanders was a hateful misogynist based on her word alone? Good times.

No.

CMYK BLYAT!
Nov 7, 2011

tolko zhaesh, poshli ikh na X
ne umru ya, moi drug, nikogda!


Surely CNN's moderators don't have that short of memories.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

I remember chattering heads trying to spin up a bullshit grudge between Warren and Bernie. I don't remember it convincing anyone who hadn't made up their mind already.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Fun Shoe

Proud Christian Mom posted:

Great, lets get it all out.

The Democrat establishment is largely ok with being a permanent minority party and putting up performative resistance to Republican ideals while simultaneously voting for them for token concessions. Incrementalism was only ever to the right, neoliberalism was just a cover to pass Republican policy when the GOP couldn't get the messaging down to do it and both the Clinton and Obama administrations were abject failures for Democrat policies. The Democrat Party refuses to offer up policies that will substantially benefit the people it supposedly represents, and there is no reason to support them while they continue to do so. Bush is Obama is Trump is Biden when it comes to the vast majority of this country who have been sold down the river for decades by the establishment of both parties.

The 'base' of the Democrat Party is predominantly older conservatives who either due to abortion rights or racism can't pull the level for the GOP. They're fine with tax cuts, cutting social programs, a police state, homophobia, runaway defense spending and evangelism. The Democrat Party and notably the supporters of Biden are fine with Trump's policies, it just his messaging they don't like. As the rich burn down the world for the second time in two decades, the party is coalescing around a guy who not only built his career on one right wing policy after another, but actively opposes tremendously popular policies like Medicare4All. Joe said it himself, nothing will fundamentally change. Well, I heard him loud and clear, and so did many others. We are not the same, I will never vote for Biden.

The best and funniest part is that voter turnout hadn't gone above 60% of eligible voters in three generations.

The DNC is obsessed with chasing the 25~% of idiots who pulled the lever for trump rather than the 45% who didn't loving vote at all, and perfectly happy to lose.

Losers arent held responsible for implementing their platform, after all.

CMYK BLYAT!
Nov 7, 2011

tolko zhaesh, poshli ikh na X
ne umru ya, moi drug, nikogda!

Liquid Communism posted:

The DNC is obsessed with chasing the 25~% of idiots who pulled the lever for trump rather than the 45% who didn't loving vote at all, and perfectly happy to lose.

To be fair, they weren't wrong: Sanders went after that segment of the electorate, and succeeded.

For certain measures of success.

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020



Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I remember chattering heads trying to spin up a bullshit grudge between Warren and Bernie. I don't remember it convincing anyone who hadn't made up their mind already.

"Chattering head" is an odd way to describe Elizabeth Warren

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



Dem voters one month ago: believe women

Dem voters now:

https://twitter.com/esmepmarm/statu...8722547712?s=21

Very excited to see what new retrograde opinions normal mainline Dems will develop in the next few months of supporting Biden. I've got my money on "actually, some kids belong in cages"

PookBear
Nov 1, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!




https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/19/poli...lity/index.html

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

I'm too dumb to get probated


just remember if and when he loses this is literally all the fault of anyone who believes universal health care should have been already implemented, you stupid young people

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

And if he wins it's because they never needed that small fringe faction of leftists

PookBear
Nov 1, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!


I think what really annoys me about this is that the moral failing is not on those that refused to vote for biden, but instead the moral failing is on the DNC and biden himself. If you want to make the argument that we won't be able to achieve change in this country after four years of trump due to emboldening fascism and trump getting four more years to appoint 40 year old judges that are going to be around nearly as long as I am then go ahead, I'm receptive to that. This is the argument my wife makes knowing that biden is likely a rapist and it comes down to us living in a red state and trump getting to replace RBG means that abortion rights are gone.

In all honestly I probably will vote for biden and largely use this thread to scream my frustrations into the void. But again if I don't vote for biden and trump does get elected, then you need to realize that the loving enemy is biden and all the politicians that dropped out and endorsed him (to include bernie) and not me.

Also Fuzzy sorry for the low blow I just use this thread as my punching bag

PookBear
Nov 1, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!


Most of us here roughly want the same thing and we're loving throwing blows at each other as we fight about which rapist getting elected is most likely to result in us getting healthcare lol

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



I think the big lesson of this and the 2016 primary was that most of us in the dem party do not actually want the same things. The conceit that we all want to move the country in the same direction, it's just that we prefer different tactics, disintegrates in the face of Biden. They could have rallied the "stop Sanders" movement around anyone and despite that they choose the most conservative option available, even though he was around fourth place at the time. And if it was purely about beating Trump, there would have been no need to stop Sanders in the first place.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Yeah, they couldn't have rallied around someone like Butt or Klob because they knew that the center-right voters they're trying to attract would never vote for a gay man or a woman. So instead we get Creepy Uncle Joe. They're just constantly shooting themselves in the foot with this strategy.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

I think both of your memories of the primary are slightly faulty here.

Back in November/December, a lot of dem establishment types weren't trying to rally around Biden, they were outright panicking and didn't think any of the candidates at the time could win—which is why Deval Patrick and Michael Bloomberg entered the race. The rallying around Biden only really happened after South Carolina (With the exception of Clyburn's endorsement, which happened immediately before), when it was conclusively proven that Biden was the only candidate other than Bernie with any base other than "middle class white people in the midwest".They didn't rally around anyone else because there wasn't anyone else, other than maybe Michael Bloomberg (who'd had his guts ripped out on stage by Warren in the previous week's debate and wasn't polling well), and Warren, who also had little support outside of her base of well-educated whites and had her best finish at 3rd in the Iowa caucus.

Ultimately the story of this primary is that in a shocking turn of events, a bunch of old white people from the midwest and northeast couldn't figure out how to get African-Americans to support them instead of the first African-American president's VP.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Acebuckeye13 posted:

I think both of your memories of the primary are slightly faulty here.

Back in November/December, a lot of dem establishment types weren't trying to rally around Biden, they were outright panicking and didn't think any of the candidates at the time could win—which is why Deval Patrick and Michael Bloomberg entered the race. The rallying around Biden only really happened after South Carolina (With the exception of Clyburn's endorsement, which happened immediately before), when it was conclusively proven that Biden was the only candidate other than Bernie with any base other than "middle class white people in the midwest".They didn't rally around anyone else because there wasn't anyone else, other than maybe Michael Bloomberg (who'd had his guts ripped out on stage by Warren in the previous week's debate and wasn't polling well), and Warren, who also had little support outside of her base of well-educated whites and had her best finish at 3rd in the Iowa caucus.

Ultimately the story of this primary is that in a shocking turn of events, a bunch of old white people from the midwest and northeast couldn't figure out how to get African-Americans to support them instead of the first African-American president's VP.

No no, I think if you read C-SPAM and Twitter you'll find it has to be the nefarious DNC manipulating millions of voters into...voting, and if we don't disenfranchise those voters by ratfucking Biden the same way the DNC ratfucked Bernie in 2016 then we'll lose to Trump anyway because a bigger more competent fascist will win in 2024 because the two parties are the same.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 6, 2020

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020



Vincent Van Goatse posted:

No no, I think if you read C-SPAM and Twitter you'll find it has to be the nefarious DNC manipulating millions of voters into...voting, and if we don't disenfranchise those voters by ratfucking Biden the same way the DNC ratfucked Bernie in 2016 then we'll lose to Trump anyway because a bigger more competent fascist will win in 2024 because the two parties are the same.

Let me guess, you think advertising doesn't work on you?

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

PeterCat posted:

Let me guess, you think advertising doesn't work on you?

It absolutely does, what's your point?

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

PeterCat posted:

Let me guess, you think advertising doesn't work on you?

I mean, no amount of advertising for or against Biden was going to change the fact that he was the fairly popular vice-president of an even more popular president with extremely high name recognition and a rock-solid base of support with one of the primary's most important voting demographics. Hell, Michael Bloomberg spent a billion loving dollars and only came out with American Samoa, and Tom Steyer focused his entire campaign on winning South Carolina to no avail.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

I don't even understand what the advertising thing is supposed to mean.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

No no, I think if you read C-SPAM and Twitter you'll find it has to be the nefarious DNC manipulating millions of voters into...voting, and if we don't disenfranchise those voters by ratfucking Biden the same way the DNC ratfucked Bernie in 2016 then we'll lose to Trump anyway because a bigger more competent fascist will win in 2024 because the two parties are the same.

Do you really think the DNC is just doin it's darn best at getting people to turn out and vote and that's it? Cause I don't get your angle here otherwise

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

His angle is airing his weird grudge against CSPAM and twitter, apparently.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Fister Roboto posted:

His angle is airing his weird grudge against CSPAM and twitter, apparently.

In fairness there are a lot of bad opinions on twitter, from every angle, on every subject. It's why I prefer to post here, and not there

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



Acebuckeye13 posted:

I think both of your memories of the primary are slightly faulty here.

Back in November/December, a lot of dem establishment types weren't trying to rally around Biden, they were outright panicking and didn't think any of the candidates at the time could win—which is why Deval Patrick and Michael Bloomberg entered the race. The rallying around Biden only really happened after South Carolina (With the exception of Clyburn's endorsement, which happened immediately before), when it was conclusively proven that Biden was the only candidate other than Bernie with any base other than "middle class white people in the midwest".They didn't rally around anyone else because there wasn't anyone else, other than maybe Michael Bloomberg (who'd had his guts ripped out on stage by Warren in the previous week's debate and wasn't polling well), and Warren, who also had little support outside of her base of well-educated whites and had her best finish at 3rd in the Iowa caucus.

Ultimately the story of this primary is that in a shocking turn of events, a bunch of old white people from the midwest and northeast couldn't figure out how to get African-Americans to support them instead of the first African-American president's VP.

So...Biden wasn't looking strong, but the establishment was desperate for anyone but Bernie and so by default they rallied around Biden. That's what I said.

If it was just about beating Trump, they could have rallied around Sanders, but they didn't, because we don't actually all want the same things and only disagree on tactics. Everyone who endorsed Biden would rather take a sundowning conservative groper than go left.

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Johnny Pussy?


Acebuckeye13 posted:

I mean, no amount of advertising for or against Biden was going to change the fact that he was the fairly popular vice-president of an even more popular president with extremely high name recognition and a rock-solid base of support with one of the primary's most important voting demographics. Hell, Michael Bloomberg spent a billion loving dollars and only came out with American Samoa, and Tom Steyer focused his entire campaign on winning South Carolina to no avail.

The best explanation I've heard about why black voters trusted Biden over everyone else was summed up like this.

"He was a politically powerful white man who willingly played second fiddle to a younger and more talented black man for 8 years and never once undermined him."

Hard to argue with that logic.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Best Friends posted:

So...Biden wasn't looking strong, but the establishment was desperate for anyone but Bernie and so by default they rallied around Biden. That's what I said.

...No it's not? You specifically said:

quote:

They could have rallied the "stop Sanders" movement around anyone and despite that they choose the most conservative option available, even though he was around fourth place at the time.

That is what I was replying to, the idea that they could have chose anyone other than Sanders but chose Biden.

As to choosing Biden over Bernie, I think the statement that "they just don't want the same things we do" is overly reductionist. The "establishment" is made up of a ton of different individuals and factions, and isn't a monolithic block—obviously there are some establishment members and donors that didn't like or trust Bernie ideologically and threatened to sit out the election if he won the primary, but there are others who like him and some that even endorsed them. But I think among the establishment, there was a real fear that Sanders would push away the moderate suburban districts that had been key to winning the House in 2018, and the polling showed they weren't entirely wrong. Sanders trailed Biden consistently in most swing states, usually not by a lot (Except in Florida where he polled like eight points worse against Trump compared to Biden, and weirdly North Carolina where he had a very slight advantage), but enough to raise worries. And of course there were also concerns that even if Sanders won, it would come at the cost of winning the Senate, which depends on victories in conservative states like North Carolina and Arizona.

Also Sanders campaigned very heavily on "gently caress the establishment," and obviously that's not going to win you very many friends in the establishment, politics often being both very personal and spite-driven.

Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 6, 2020

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Acebuckeye13 posted:

But I think among the establishment, there was a real fear that Sanders would push away the moderate suburban districts that had been key to winning the House in 2018, and the polling showed they weren't entirely wrong.

Couldn't they just bully them into voting for Sanders, because he's the lesser of two evils? Or does that only work on leftists?

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Fister Roboto posted:

Couldn't they just bully them into voting for Sanders, because he's the lesser of two evils? Or does that only work on leftists?

unfortunately there's just not as many of them on twitter so we'll never know

Serious answer: I mean, you run into the same problem you do on the left with Biden. There's a lot of people who think Sanders is way too far left and too partisan, and would either sit out the election or vote third party if presented with that choice—or, hold their nose and vote for Bernie, but then vote Republican on the downballot to keep him in check (because americans are insane and love divided government). And unfortunately, not only are there more of these people than those on the left in general, but there's even more in the swing states critical to winning the election and the Senate.

I mean even with all that said I still think Sanders would have been a more robust candidate for the general, which is why I voted for him, but I can at least see why so many people whose brains are permanently broken from staring at polls all day panicked.

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



Biden's massive boost in the primary after winning only one not particularly representative state, but also right after him getting endorsed by the entire non-bernie crew on the same day (except for Warren, lol), to me indicates that those endorsements were key. Mainline Dem voters got their orders and acted on them. If they were told to hobnob with the klob or book it to Booker (had the consolidation have happened earlier) would have imo been extremely effective for them too. If Biden was actually a dynamo he would have not eaten poo poo in the first 3 states. It seems to be to be incredibly biased towards "whatever happened had to have happened" to see Biden as at all inevitable.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Acebuckeye13 posted:

unfortunately there's just not as many of them on twitter so we'll never know

Serious answer: I mean, you run into the same problem you do on the left with Biden. There's a lot of people who think Sanders is way too far left and too partisan, and would either sit out the election or vote third party if presented with that choice—or, hold their nose and vote for Bernie, but then vote Republican on the downballot to keep him in check (because americans are insane and love divided government). And unfortunately, not only are there more of these people than those on the left in general, but there's even more in the swing states critical to winning the election and the Senate.

I mean even with all that said I still think Sanders would have been a more robust candidate for the general, which is why I voted for him, but I can at least see why so many people whose brains are permanently broken from staring at polls all day panicked.


I know you're right about this. I just hate this lopsided dichotomy where wishy-washy centrists need to be coddled because even a hint of anything leftish will startle them and that's A-OK, but for leftists it's a moral imperative to vote for someone who doesn't even represent them.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

I didn't say Biden was inevitable, just that he had very strong advantages in name recognition, popularity, and support among African-American voters that would have made beating him difficult for any of the other candidates, not just Sanders. If anything the early primary states were extremely unrepresentative of how the rest of the primary was going to go, due to Iowa and New Hampshire being lily-white, Iowa and Nevada being caucus states, and all three of those states having far more campaign visits and candidate recognition that allowed people like Klob and Butt to compete and eroded Biden's advantages in name recognition.

Like, we keep forgetting it, but he did lead in national polling and in most states for nearly the entire primary cycle. People underestimated him and expected his campaign to eventually collapse (Hell, I certainly did), but... it didn't, in large part because nobody was able to effectively counter those core strengths.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Fister Roboto posted:

I know you're right about this. I just hate this lopsided dichotomy where wishy-washy centrists need to be coddled because even a hint of anything leftish will startle them and that's A-OK, but for leftists it's a moral imperative to vote for someone who doesn't even represent them.

Yeah, especially when there's so much good that could be done with even marginally progressive proposals that could have huge impacts right now. This country faces profound structural challenges that require and demand bold ideas and fearless action, but we're held back so much by the fear of losing a squishy center that has lost the ability to tell basic right and wrong. And it doesn't help either that even when we do have leaders that rise up and put forth the kind of bold proposals we need, they're often punished for it by those fueled by naked opportunism. (See how Ed Markey in Massachusetts is getting primaried from the center by a loving Kennedy).

Change and a better tomorrow are possible and in our grasp, if not now, then soon—but god drat it is not being made easy.

KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009




Soiled Meat

bulletsponge13 posted:

I'm being serious when I say Biden hasn't courted me as a voter; the Bend the Knee people aren't; no one can give me a reason I should vote for him other than "or its a vote for Trump!". If you point out that his political record is in line with the GOP, they dodge and try to make it look like their lack of principles should be an affliction on everyone. poo poo, Biden won't even defend his actions when confronted- "Then Vote for Trump." gently caress that noise.

I mean, it's going to be pretty loving hard for me to get me to vote for that piece of poo poo, but at least make an effort.

E-dumb dumb forget words

Same. Bernie spoiled me with the affirming text messages, constant volunteer contact, and a general sense of a movement. Then it turned out to all be fake.

So gently caress you Biden. Lie to me like how Bernie lied to me to get my vote. Respect me at least that much.

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...advisers-087410

quote:


When Biden is on the road, he is usually accompanied by Bruce Reed, 59, a Bill Clinton campaign and White House veteran who led the Democratic Leadership Council, the now-defunct centrist think tank that helped elect Clinton and was the bęte noire of the Democratic left for more than two decades. Reed later led Obama’s National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, another target of liberal angst, and then replaced Klain to be Biden’s second chief of staff. (Ricchetti then replaced Reed in advance of a possible 2016 run “because he was perceived by Biden to be a little more political,” a former White House colleague said.) Reed, who along with Donilon frequently travels with Biden, now serves as Biden’s main policy expert briefing the candidate on the road. “Bruce and Donilon are there to be his personal team,” said one Biden staffer.

quote:

The one newcomer at the top is Anita Dunn, 61, whose history in presidential politics is with progressive candidates: Bill Bradley in 2000 and Barack Obama in 2008, when she was his communications adviser during the general election campaign then in the White House. Like Biden himself, the Biden campaign sometimes has a chip on its shoulder about the lack of respect it receives from the press and the larger universe of Democratic professionals. Dunn is the best articulator of the campaign’s anti-liberal elite wrath.


Biden's closest advisors are the guys who convinced Bill Clinton to deregulate banking and cut the welfare state, and the woman who volunteered to do PR, for free, for Harvey Weinstein, if anyone here would still like to pretend Joe Biden will move to the left for some reason.

AlexanderCA
Jul 21, 2010


There's some of "electing biden will just lead to a worse trump winning in 2024" argument I've seen around the forums. And I just wonder how anyone in the year 2020 and a global once in a century pandemic can feel they can predict politics 4 years out to inform their vote today.

Seriously please do everything to not elect Trump. Just the Paris agreement withdrawal is huge to the rest of us who dont get a vote. I'd like my country not to be submerged for instance.

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Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Best Friends posted:

So...Biden wasn't looking strong, but the establishment was desperate for anyone but Bernie and so by default they rallied around Biden. That's what I said.

If it was just about beating Trump, they could have rallied around Sanders, but they didn't, because we don't actually all want the same things and only disagree on tactics. Everyone who endorsed Biden would rather take a sundowning conservative groper than go left.

I also don't think anyone to the right of this thread thinks Bernie has/had a loving chance in the general.

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