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Jade Rider
May 11, 2007

All the pages have been censored except for "heck," and she misread that one.


Huh, can't believe it took me until now to notice there's a cat nose on Ann's mask in addition to the cat ears.

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Qrr
Aug 14, 2015


Hunt11 posted:

This update is full of amazing qol updates for the game. Disaster shadows add some variety to enemy encounter and can get you some cool stuff and party members asking to use character specific gear that is found in the palace means less messing around in the menu. The whole will seed system deserves a special shoutout as not only is the item you get at the end really good, they help to provide a general sense of pace for the palace and how much further you have to go whilst also making sp patches not nearly as necessary as they were in the base game.

The seed system looks like it also fills the vital role of letting you know what sin the person represents before you see their name in the final boss battle. Not particularly necessary for Kamoshida but it gets the surprise out of the way early for some of the others.

Flair
Apr 5, 2016

Arist posted:


Umm, is it really okay to take it?

YOU’RE HERE TO STEAL THINGS, I scream, waking up the neighbors and scaring a cat out of a nearby tree.

I inferred Ann being cautious or worried rather than being morally challenged. Seeing something like that in someone's pscyhe would make me afraid that it would infect me.


Arist posted:


We’re just going to take the Slime and move on. Also, the Hermit effect, “Avoid Encounters”, doesn’t actually despawn enemies, it just prevents them from noticing you.


Interestingly, the first shuffle time you get in the castle always guarantees either slime or pixie.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




Hell yeah, 4/20 update! :2bong:

This is the first time I've heard about Persona 4 having another battle song besides Reach out to the Truth too.

BisbyWorl
Jan 12, 2019

Knowledge is pain plus observation.


RareAcumen posted:

Hell yeah, 4/20 update! :2bong:

This is the first time I've heard about Persona 4 having another battle song besides Reach out to the Truth too.

Time to Make History was added in Golden, the original game only had Reach out to the Truth for random fights.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Chapter 17: 4/20-4/21: Prison Labor (New)

This update covers Part 15 of the original LP.

Music: King, Queen, and Slaves



Let’s go do that fusion we mentioned last update. We’ll need it before we face the upcoming boss.



Music: Aria of the Soul




We are introducing a new regimen to your rehabilitation in the form of Challenge Battles. For these trials, we will permit the cognitions of your comrades to fight at your side. Hmph, cry your tears of joy!
Depending on your results in combat, you will receive some form of compensation for your efforts. Should you prove successful, there is no doubt that you will be rewarded and strengthened in body and mind.
We’ve even prepared a special stage for you to undergo this part of your rehabilitation.
Take this opportunity to demonstrate the furthest reaches of the strength you’ve gained up to now. Should you wish to attempt this at once, we shall oblige you.

Sweet, new bullshit! :toot:






So, to summarize: Challenge Battles are a new feature added in Royal that allows us to win fabulous prizes for getting high scores in special trial fights. We go in with full HP and SP with our current party, as well, since it’s just “cognitions” of them. Whatever. We’ll get to that in a second.



First, we fuse this Obariyon from Jack-o’-Lantern and Kelpie.



Then, this Berith from Succubus and Silky. We give it Dormina.






Here’s the Challenge Battle menu. We can scroll through different types of challenges left and right, or increase the level and difficulty of the current challenge type.






Suffice it to say that each of these will be tougher than the last. Also worth noting: all of these except the base "Trial" battles are DLC-only, so we'll probably be ignoring them for the purposes of a base playthrough.



We’ll just be taking on the Level 10 Trial Battle for now.




Remember: no All-Out Attacks in these fights.




These are the rewards for this fight. The top reward is an accessory that grants Agi to one party member, oooooh.



Here are our bonus conditions. We’ll earn 10,000 points if we clear the battle within 20 party actions, using Wind will triple the points of an action, and using Ann will multiply it by 7. We have Garu on Ann currently, so casting Wind with her will, in fact, multiply her points by 21. It’s also worth noting while we’re on the subject of points that you earn 1 base point for every point of damage you do.



And here are the enemies. Not super helpful, but in a Challenge Battle the game isn’t coy about hiding affinities from you and will just tell you what’s weak to what if you analyze. It’s very handy.




Let’s begin.

Music: Prison Labor








Okay, let’s do this.



The Kelpie is weak to Electricity, so we zap it and Baton Pass over to Mona to hit the Jack-o’-Lantern with Wind, then Panther to hit the Koropokkuru and Jack Frost with Fire.



Our score is pretty low for this round, unfortunately. We may have to rethink our strategy.




Also, this happens.




This has gone south, we’re gonna bail.



So we try again, but this time our score is even worse!



The Apsaras is weak to Fire and Electricity, the Onmoraki is weak to Ice and Bless, and the Mokoi and Inugami are both weak to Wind. We hit them with a lot of Wind, but…




...still only 18k.

Music: Triumph






Not good enough.

Music: Aria of the Soul






Jeez, I get it.



We’re going to resummon Silky from the Inmate Registry and try this one again, this time trying to maximize our point gains by hitting the Wind weaknesses with Panther instead of Mona, and hitting them as often as possible.



Score! It worked!

(If you want to see video of a successful attempt at this one, well, my capture card glitched some of the footage here, but I did re-record it with the same basic strategy. That video is here)

We put that Ember Ring on Joker, but before we leave, there’s one more thing I didn’t mention…






There are also DLC Challenge Battles against the main characters of Persona 3 and Persona 4! I haven’t actually ever attempted these, but maybe we’ll get to them eventually.





We also fuse this Genbu (with Tarukaja) from Cait Sith and Silky before we leave.

Music: King, Queen, and Slaves




Mkay, all we gotta do now is steal the Treasure that shows up, yeah? It’s finally time.
But we need to send the calling card first. When should we do it?
Just hold on. Let’s retreat for now, then we can talk more about that stuff back at the hideout. Oh, and well done today!



After School → Evening

Music: Beneath the Mask -Rain (Instrumental Version)



That’s my secret, cat. I’m always tired.




It hit me like a goddamn ton of bricks right when I sat down…

Yeah, we did do a lot today…
So Kamoshida’ll change if we steal that Treasure, huh… It’s up to you when we send that card, Maaku.
Call us up when you’re ready.

The real challenge is coming up. I hope you’re ready.



The weather may not be great, but it’s easier to focus on making infiltration tools when you’re stuck inside.

We’re going to go make some Lockpicks now that we can again. But I’ve buried the lede here: we can do stuff the night after heading into the Palace without having to call Kawakami! At least, stuff in Leblanc! Rad!

I’m also realizing in retrospect that I should have studied at the table downstairs instead because it’s raining and we’d get more Knowledge, but unfortunately I’m dumb. Whatever, it’s not like we get nothing for crafting Lockpicks while it’s raining; we can make one more than normal, giving us an extra chance at the bonus craft proc and the extra point of Proficiency that comes with it. Knowledge is just the stat that takes the longest to rank up, unfortunately.

Music: Everyday Days







And we get the bonus craft proc! Maaku gains Proficiency +3.



Early Morning

Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)



I wanna start watching from the beginning now. I wonder if there’s anywhere I can borrow season one…
(Shallow College Student) How about the video rental shop on Central Street? If you become a yearly member, you can borrow as many DVDs as you want.
Oh? They’re a pretty big chain, so they probably have it. Thanks, I’ll stop by later.
The video rental shop on Central Street… Oh, they must mean that giant building right in front of the book store. Being able to borrow as much as you want sounds tempting. Let’s check it out when we have the time.

Yep, instead of a never-enforced late fee for DVD rentals, the DVD place on Central Street now just offers a subscription fee to rent whatever you want for however long you want. It’s a lot less fake-stressful.



Hi, Sae! Hi, Makoto! Hope you're getting along! Though probably not!

Well, you know, it’s—

We found the Treasure, so all that’s left is to send the calling card. We have some time until the board meeting though. What do you want to do today?



I see… We found the Treasure, but I guess we still don’t know what else is there.

Actually, we are doing it today, I just had stuff I need to take care of first and didn’t feel like getting forced straight into the hideout menu after school like we would if I said “yes.”

We still have time, and I don’t want to make mistakes just because I was being impatient. I’m glad you’re the calm one, Maaku, but let me know if you change your mind.

Early Morning → After School

Music: Beneath the Mask -Rain (Instrumental Version)




I bet she jumped because team practice was too much for her. She was too soft and couldn’t hack it.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you!



Kamoshida approaches once again…



Where’s that worthless buddy of yours, huh? Hey, answer me!



You really are trying to make me lose it, aren’t you? Your attitude’s pissing me off! Well, garbage in, garbage in, garbage out, I guess—

That’s not what that means.

—It’s like you don’t even regret getting on my bad side… Hope you’re looking forward to that upcoming board meeting. I know I sure am. Everyone’ll be so happy when you get expelled. I’m sure they’ll cheer like trash like you is gone!

Kamoshida’s the kind of guy who’s clearly way too into his own insults for them to land correctly. Like, you’re just watching him spit vitriol at you, clearly working himself up and getting super pissed, and that’s objectively hilarious. It makes me wonder how he’s managed to keep the mask up all this time.



I’m going to use the quick travel menu to pop into Untouchable and sell all this garbage for 25k. Nice haul.





When we leave, we get the scene where the Velvet Room appears in the real world.

Music: Suspicion







Never, ever gets old.



Actually, it wasn’t by choice…
I provided this door so you can come here from the real world.
…Was that all you wanted?
Yes.
Be grateful, Inmate!




We next head over to the Secondhand Shop.



We want this DVD player.





But it’s raining… so I may get an influx of people with colds.

Next, Takemi’s.




We’re going to buy 3 Takamedic-Alls (50 Hp restore to the whole party) and 2 Revivadrins (50% HP revive from KO). That’ll cost us about 7-8k, but we’re good on money at the moment.



Now we head to the hideout.



Why didn’t we just send one at the start?
The effect only lasts about a day.
But it only took us a day to find the Treasure anyway.
…Shut up.

This joke is inaccurate in like eight different ways but I like it too much to cut it so there :colbert:



We’re sending the calling card.

Music: Suspicion



Okay, so we need to show him the calling card that morning, and steal the Treasure by the end of the day.
Right. Are you worried?
Just confirming. I’ve waited too long to make this bastard pay.

Perfect. So, who’s going to write the card?

Oooh! Oooh! Pick me!
Wait, really?
Why not?
Because this is important and you’re gonna mess it up. Let’s have Maaku do it.
I *can’t*. I keep telling you people this. Are you mocking me? Why are you so cruel?
C’mon! I gotta pay that rear end in a top hat back! Please?
Fine. But when he fills it with weird poo poo lifted from his dumb shounen manga and everyone instantly finds out it was us, just know I warned you guys.
Yessssssssssss!

After School → Evening

Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)





I made us a sick-rear end logo and everything!
I regret this already.
Everyone rest up. Tomorrow’s gonna be huge.

I’m sure it’ll all go well!
Just remember, we can’t trust any lovely adults. That’s why we gotta do this ourselves.

Good to remember. Thanks, Ryuji.



Yep, let’s study.



Maaku gains Knowledge +2.

Arist fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Oct 30, 2020

LiefKatano
Aug 31, 2018

I swear, by my sword and capote, that I will once again prove victorious!!
One of the gross things about Challenge Battles I don't think you mentioned is that all of them besides the Trial set are DLC-only.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


LiefKatano posted:

One of the gross things about Challenge Battles I don't think you mentioned is that all of them besides the Trial set are DLC-only.

I didn't actually know that! I thought just the P4 and P5 ones were! That's legitimately super useful information, thank you.

Flair
Apr 5, 2016

I appreciate the new tunes :dance:

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Chapter 18: 4/22: Lust For Life (New)

This update covers Part 16 of the original LP.



Time to wake up…



We’ve got work to do. (Yes, the calling card appearing is new. I also appreciate that it’s Ryuji’s lovely calling card this time, heh)

Music: Beneath the Mask (Instrumental Version)



(Brisk Student) Gigolo…? Oh, you mean the arcade next to the convenience store? I thought it was against school regulations to go to the arcade. Besides, I heard some delinquent hangs around there. What, is there a game you wanna play or something?
N-No. I just heard that they sell this overseas juice brand there. It’s supposed to help with drowsiness… My grades have been slipping lately… But, I’m scared of the delinquent…

He’ll infect you with tardiness! That fiend! (Pretty certain that “delinquent” is supposed to be Ryuji, given that he hangs out at the arcade on his days off)

Why does it seem like products that come from overseas always work? Maybe it’s the unique taste?

It’s because you’re a rube who believes that just because something is “exotic” it’s got mystical healing powers or some poo poo.

And there’s a delinquent, huh? Well, compared to Shadows, he shouldn’t be trouble.



(in extremely Kaiji Tang voice) MY YAKISOBA PAN

(Well-Informed Student) Oh, there’s usually some left over on Fridays. I guess that weirdo from another school who buys them all is busy on Friday.

A joke so nice, I made it twice.



I heard it was already posted by the time everyone got here this morning.



One fun thing about this line is that you can hear Ann struggling not to laugh as she reads “utter bastard.”

“We know how lovely you are, and that you put your twisted desires on students that can’t fight back. That’s why we have decided to steal away those desires and make you confess your sins. This will be done tomorrow, so we hope you will be ready.”

“We hope you will be ready” is awful polite, considering.

“From, Ryuji the Phantom Thieves of Hearts.”




Music: Disquiet



I looked up a bunch of similar stuff online for reference.

Wait. Did you seriously Google “phantom thief calling card” for this? You’re already the prime suspect here, you realize how hosed we are if they do any investigation into this, right?
Whatever. All that matters is it gets the job done.

Um… Yeah… I know what you wanted to say, but it sounded like an idiot trying to be an adult.
Your logo’s a little lacking, too.
Okay, y’know what? Th-That ain’t true!

Aww, stop ragging on Ryuji. I think it’s good.

(Shy Female Student) Did Mr. Kamoshida do something wrong?
(Rumor-Loving Female Student) Does this mean the rumors are true!?
(Rumor-Loving Student) Wait a sec… Is someone gonna take something from Mr. Kamoshida?
(Excited Male Student) What’s with this weird logo? And who’re these Phantom Thieves of Hearts people?

Yeah, the name could use some work, though. We haven’t yet ascended to the form of #Millennials. We need to work on our branding. Get Yusuke in here to do some graphic design and make the logo a little less crude, you know, the basics.

…It got everyone excited, so it’s all good, yeah?




…Look at that. A predictable reaction for someone who knows what we mean by distorted desires.
I think it’s hittin’ him pretty hard.




Even if it was, what’re you gonna do? Double-expel us? Sounds fun, let’s try it.

What garbage… Eh, it’s not a problem. You’ll be expelled soon enough anyway.

Music: Tension








Does that mean the Treasure’s appeared!? We’ll be able to get it today, right?

Today and only today. We can’t repeat the effect of the calling card. This is our only chance.
We got this!






Early Morning → After School

So I guess we just went through the rest of the school day after that? Awkward…

Music: Life Will Change (Instrumental Version)






Before we steal the Treasure, let’s get those chests we missed beforehand.






This one contains a nice piece of armor we’ll slap on Skull.




This other one is in a bit of a precarious spot, being guarded by enemies, but we slip past them.



We get an item that’ll fully heal a party member for our trouble.



All right, let’s go.



This place is probably undermanned now that they all got assigned elsewhere.

Why would they be “assigned elsewhere”? We *told him* we were gonna take the Treasure! This makes no sense!
Don’t complain about convenient poo poo, man…

Either way, we win as long as we can steal the Treasure! Let’s keep going!




Man, it’s huge!
What do you think!? It’s just as I said! Now we can steal it! Ahh… this shine brings tears to my eyes…

How, exactly, are we getting this thing out of here? Are we gonna carry it?

…It kinda pisses me off. Why’s it so pretty? Isn’t this Kamoshida’s desires?



Uh, the cat’s actin’ awfully excited.
What’s wrong? Is something…



Mrrrrrrooooooow!

Oh god, his primal instincts have taken over! Don’t touch the treasure or he’ll go berserk!
Mewwwww! I’ve got it, meow! If I can’t become a human, I’ll buy myself a human body! Then Lady Ann will love me! Meow, meow!
Never mind, he’s just an idiot.

All right, that’s enough you stupid cat!



Oh, um, yeah… Forgive me for displaying such an insolent sight in front of a lady…
You were completely out of character too. What was that about.

It’s his *endearing character trait*, Panther! Don’t question it!

I couldn’t help myself… I was helpless before the power of human desires… Though maybe this proves I’m human…!
Not so sure about your logic there, pal.
Whatever! Just carry the Treasure!
…But it’s floating.

All you do is bark orders… Still, that was easier than I thought! I thought for sure there’d be some insane trap or something.
His Palace will disappear if we take this back, right? And Kamoshida will change too…
…That should be the case.
Good. Now’s our chance then.



God, I’m out of shape…

To think it’d go so well… I’ve even found three Persona users in the process… My judgment was correct. I made the right choice in making a deal with you! Nyahaha!

That’s great and all, but why aren’t you helping!?






Uwa—!



Music: Blood of Villain



Please don’t focus in on the legs, urghhh.







Oh, goddammit.
Now we have to deal with this?
You guys don’t get to complain! I’m looking at me as Sexual Harassment Barbie over here!
I knew you’d come for this. I’ll deal with you all myself.

That’s our line, you sexually-harassin’ d-bag!

This is just a misunderstanding Don’t be so self-righteous.
What’s there to misunderstand!? You’ve been covering up your abuse!
Please. It was the people around me who kept it secret. It’s the people who want to share in some of my glory… they’re the ones who’ve protected me for their own profit.

Profit!?

Some idiots just don’t understand that we all benefit here! Like you morons and that girl who jumped off the roof!



Uhhh…
Listen, that seems a little out of line…

And I’m even more of a dumbass for not realizing that! But no matter what kind of fool someone might be… They don’t need your permission to live their lives!
Drop the attitude, you mediocre peasant! There is no wrong in using my gifts for my gain! I’m a cut above all other humans!

You’re not human at all, you bastard! You’re a demon obsessed with his goddamn libido!






Music: Blooming Villain





I’m allowed to do whatever the hell I want!





Video: Suguru Asmodeus Kamoshida




Look! The Treasure’s on his head! We need to catch him off guard and take it! Let’s attack him until we find an opening!




Asmodeus will start off with a standard Volleyball Assault, which can hit 1-3 times for minor damage.



Boss fights are about the same as they were in the original game: no status effects, no real weaknesses, y'know, boring.



Anyway, a reminder that debuffs are still very, very good against bosses. We unfortunately don’t have anything with Tarunda here to counter his use of Lustful Slurp to raise his Attack, but lowering his Defense will be good too.



Also, Skull got Tarukaja recently, so let’s use that.





Asmodeus can use two attacks per turn. Here, he uses Volleyball Assault twice. I don’t think he can use them on the same party member twice in a row, but that’s just a guess.




Let’s just deal enough damage to move on to the next phase.






Come at me, you pieces of poo poo! I ain’t lettin’ you sleep tonight!
He healed himself? Is it from eating one of those… things in the trophy?



Now we can attack the trophy.




You don’t know what this is worth, so stop touching it! Don’t do it anymore, got it? I’ve warned you!
When someone tells us not to do something, it makes us want to do it even more!




Now he uses Lustful Slurp to… eurghh… slurp up Cognitive Ann in the wine glass, and gain an Attack buff from it.



He hits hard with that buff up, as you can see.



Trophy of Obsession destroyed.



No way… This was from when I won the national…
All right!



I am Kamoshida! Don’t you get it!?



Huh!? Like I keep saying—I am Kamoshida! I’m the king!



We came all this way to steal that! Will you just give it up and hand it over?
Silence! I won't let the likes of you have this!
You still have the energy to say things like that!? Then we’re going to up our game as well!







How dare you keep defying me… Looks like I gotta bring out the big guns! Slaves! Bring over you-know-what!



Time for my killshot from when I was active and rockin’ it! Killshot… as in I’ll make the kill!

Geez, we get it…
I don’t.



There is, in fact, a new section to this fight in Royal. It’s, uh… well, let’s see.





Too slow, Mishima! Worthless chump!



Wait, what!? Why’s he here?
Calm down. That’s only Kamoshida’s cognitive version of him! It’s not the real Mishima!




Sage advice. Let’s guard. Our only goal here is just to survive, and we’re going to need to be very cautious to make it through this next bit.









Worth noting that the killshots do Almighty damage, so you can’t resist them any way besides guarding.



Hey, poo poo-for-brains! Get off my court!




Now, it’s time for a new segment added in Royal that I like to call…




...Sexualize The Rape Victim! And she’s underage, too! Bonus points in utter loving depravity!

Like, okay. I get what you’re going for here. The actual point here does not seem to be to titillate. But come on, guys. Someone must have realized this was maybe a little gross considering what this character has been through. Actually, scratch that, it would require the people making these games to actually care about Shiho. :smith:





Panther, calm down! That’s not the real one!
Y-Yeah, you’re right… But, this is just…
Dammit, even Suzui too! You’ve gone too far, you piece of poo poo!





Or should we take down the cognitive Suzui so he can’t get the ball anymore…? Since that’s just a cognitive Suzui, attacking it shouldn’t have an effect on the real one…



Putting my foot down here: We’re not going to beat up Suzui! Nope! Not doing that!

Roger that!



Skull gets a good opportunity here to use his Diarama skill from the Will Seed accessory.







We take more damage here because we weren’t guarding, but we needed to heal up from the last one.







Thankfully, we have revival items now!



Kamoshida is going to helpfully give us another turn to beat on him by using Lustful Slurp before he does another killshot.





Dealing about 300 damage will end this phase of the fight.

(For the record, the other way, involving defeating Cognitive Shiho, sounds a little easier. She has 500 health, but she’s also weak to everything. Still not doing that)





I can’t serve up my killshot without any balls!

I’m above this joke… I’m above this joke… I’m above thi—THOSE AREN’T THE ONLY BALLS WE’RE GONNA TAKE FROM YOU MOTHERFU-



How dare you treat students like slaves… You’re scum! Nothing but scum! Kamoshida, I’ll never forgive you!



We won’t get anywhere with brute force…





More of these Special Orders. They’re not really much better or more involved than they were in the original game, sadly.




I see… In that case, time for Plan B!



While the others are drawing Kamoshida’s attention, have someone go there! Let’s steal the Treasure without noticing!





A reminder that sending Panther will result in failure, as Kamoshida can’t keep his gross eyes off her.



Skull’s up for it, though I probably should have sent Mona as he has the lowest damage output.




To keep Asmodeus distracted we need to attack him at least once per our turn.




Morgana will notify us if we’ve nearly dealt enough damage to move on to the next phase.



You’re the only ones who don’t respect me, you know!



Anyway. Now’s my chance!





Just rinse and repeat here. I could probably have thrown in a Rakunda to make this go a lot quicker but I didn’t feel the need to.



They came on to me because they wanted to get on my good side!



But at least it’s lettin’ me get closer to the Treasure.



One more time.



I knew it! They’re missing! Where’d they go!?








Thanks, Skull.



That reference is overplayed, you bastard!

Good, Kamoshida’s shaken up!






Now that he’s dejected, we deal massive damage with each attack.



And Asmodeus falls real quick.



drat yoooouuu!!!



Line Changes!!!!

In the Asmodeus boss fight, the line “Nnnnngh! I need healin’!” has been changed to “Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. That hits the spot! Which makes a lot more sense because he’s already healed at this point. Also, Morgana’s line just after has changed from “He healed himself…? Is it because he ate those inside there…?” to “He healed himself? Is it from eating one of those… things in the trophy?” which is a lot less awkward.

Also in that boss fight, just before the All-Out Attack after we shatter the trophy, Ryuji's "You look down on everyone… but you’re seriously lame right now." has become "I always saw you as a condescending hotshot, but right now... you're just a pathetic loser." Which is maybe a little less in-character for Ryuji considering the word choice, but makes the meaning of the sentence clearer.

One line that did not change and probably should have is “How is it a misunderstanding!? You were doing things that you kept in secret from others!” when Ann is confronting Shadow Kamoshida, because… woof.

Arist fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 30, 2020

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013

The URL for the video of the Kamoshida fight is borked.

But uhhhh, yeah...I do get the intent of including cognitive versions of Mishima and Shiho (have the boss summon cognitive versions of the people they abuse as helpers) since the original only did that with Ann and then never really did anything with that idea, but :wtc: at Cognitive Shiho. It's worse when you realize cognitive Mishima is just his banged up model from earlier recycled, but Atlus went out of their way to make a whole new model for Shiho, and they went with that.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014



AradoBalanga posted:

The URL for the video of the Kamoshida fight is borked.

But uhhhh, yeah...I do get the intent of including cognitive versions of Mishima and Shiho (have the boss summon cognitive versions of the people they abuse as helpers) since the original only did that with Ann and then never really did anything with that idea, but :wtc: at Cognitive Shiho. It's worse when you realize cognitive Mishima is just his banged up model from earlier recycled, but Atlus went out of their way to make a whole new model for Shiho, and they went with that.

Yeah same. That Shiho is very :catstare:.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
"Do you want to beat up a sexualized version of the rape victim who tried to kill herself?"

That is... certainly a question that Persona 5 Royal is posing.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

hopeandjoy posted:

Yeah same. That Shiho is very :catstare:.

I'm hardly the first person to point this out, but it really sucks how P5 keeps undercutting its own text of "sexualizing teenage girls is wrong" by going out of its way to turn the male gaze on its teen girl characters. It happens to all the girl teammates to some degree, but it's worst with Ann.

rannum
Nov 3, 2012




Hey look I know everyone is focusing on the new dumb bullshit but what the gently caress

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
I feel like that line is trying to be that thing in Japanese media where a character is like "That idiot. Why didn't they tell me things were that bad? I could have helped if I had known." Kind of like the character is mad at both that person and themselves for not being there when they were needed.

That said, that line isn't cool at all and comes across as victim blaming, so... yeah.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
As for the actual fight, Kamoshida is a lot easier compared to his base version. The new components of the fight are obviously ways to make the spike attack more manageable, but even without that Kamoshida seems to generally take more damage and do less. I think in the original I had to grind up enough to get Ann to learn Tarunda, while here I think I just walked in here with the physical-resistant Slime and nobody was really in danger.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


From memory I either ignored the helpers or specifically only beat up the Mishima helped when doing this fight. He’s not really hard even with the kill shot going on thanks to the mediarama you get from the will seed.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

Mishima should've been the one in the bunny outfit.

LiefKatano
Aug 31, 2018

I swear, by my sword and capote, that I will once again prove victorious!!
I think Kamoshida's my least favorite of the revamped fights in Royal, mostly because it feels like the changes just... are changes. They don't play into the battle system or anything; the closest you get is Cognitive Suzui and that gives you... one extra turn.

The good news is that the next boss does actually do cool stuff with its changes! The bad news is that it's probably the peak for me, at least not counting bosses added wholesale for Royal. :v:

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
The only boss I've seen for this game aside from Kamoshida is Okumura, so it should be interesting seeing the changes.

StolenTeeth
Oct 11, 2016
You know what new Shiho content I would've appreciated? If she was a party member instead of Ann.

SoundwaveAU
Apr 17, 2018

StolenTeeth posted:

You know what new Shiho content I would've appreciated? If she was a party member instead of Ann.

I just wanted her to have a confidant. I like her, she's neat.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

that would mean way way more wacky ribald Shiho hijinx

fucking love Fiona Apple
Jun 19, 2013

samus comfy so what

Cognitive Shiho sure is a thing. Even like 7 months since I played this fight I still don't really know what to think of it. Like did the devs need the player to hate Kamoshida even more? I feel like he was already pretty well hated. Plus the whole thing with Ann calling Shiho an idiot is...

It just seems totally unnecessary and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd rather just forget about it.

SoundwaveAU posted:

I just wanted her to have a confidant. I like her, she's neat.

I did as well but I don't have any trust in Atlus being able to make the end of it not extremely uncomfortable. I really wouldn't want this Confidant to be able to end in a romance.

fucking love Fiona Apple fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Oct 25, 2020

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

loving love Fiona Apple posted:

I'd rather just forget about it.

Boy if that doesn't sum up at least a good third of P5's writing choices...

StolenTeeth
Oct 11, 2016
Let me rephrase my earlier statement: I would've really liked to have had Shiho as a party member instead of Ann if I believed for a second that the writers would've handled it well. Ann peaked as a character in Kamoshida's palace, and she got a couple really good scenes out of it where she got to stick it to Kamoshida. Imagine how much better that would've been if Shiho had those scenes, and if she got to work on dealing with the trauma through the course of the game, instead of being used as a plot device with a half-assed conclusion at the end of Ann's confidant route.

Also, if Shiho was in the party, maybe we'd have the added bonus of Yusuke getting introduced to the party in a far less problematic way.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


From a narrative level it does kind of work, although I think it really only needed Mishima to get the point across. Then you get the whole this is Kamoshida's subconscious ordering around his "slave" same as the real Kamoshida uses Mishima as a weapon/tool. If you had to have a cognitive Shiho (and you really don't) I'd say replace the doll of Ann in the goblet, or even have both, or put her in the cup you destroy. Basically make her a full victim in Kamoshida's mind.

It works narratively, it's also in terrible taste and I really wish they hadn't done it.

I do not think having Shiho in the party over Ann really helps anything though, I do like the idea of her getting to speak up against Kamoshida and she would be saying the same things, but I actually like Ann as a party member with the way she bounces off the other characters in scenes and mementos conversations, I don't think you'd get the same from Shiho because either her entire character is built around dealing with her traumatic experience or that experience is ignored and neither is a particularly great way to write her.

The better option is to actually change Ann's Confidant stuff, the modelling story is pretty garbage anyway and making it about Ann reaching out to Shiho and trying to support her feels like it'd make for a good option to let Ann's confidant actually have weight and depth, and would help her mirror Ryuji a bit more in that both would be dealing with the aftermath of Kamoshida.

AradoBalanga
Jan 3, 2013

Lord_Magmar posted:

The better option is to actually change Ann's Confidant stuff, the modelling story is pretty garbage anyway and making it about Ann reaching out to Shiho and trying to support her feels like it'd make for a good option to let Ann's confidant actually have weight and depth, and would help her mirror Ryuji a bit more in that both would be dealing with the aftermath of Kamoshida.
:same:

Ann actually dealing with the aftermath of her closest friend attempting suicide would be a much more interesting confidant than trying to make it into modelling. Especially since that modelling confidant is so divorced from what's been going on with Ann that it feels like something out of a different story.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I think the Ann confidant was an attempt at showing how Ann's life would be after the Phantom Thieves debacle ends; Ryuji has running, Yusuke has art, Futaba has school, etc. If you made all of Ann's Confidant about Shiho, then there's the 'so what happens after Ann graduates?' question, I guess. I mean they could have easily written it in at the end of the SL, but eh.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


ApplesandOranges posted:

I think the Ann confidant was an attempt at showing how Ann's life would be after the Phantom Thieves debacle ends; Ryuji has running, Yusuke has art, Futaba has school, etc. If you made all of Ann's Confidant about Shiho, then there's the 'so what happens after Ann graduates?' question, I guess. I mean they could have easily written it in at the end of the SL, but eh.

You could still have the modelling career. Also clearly after the Phantom Thieves and graduation Ann has Shiho.

Plus even then those confidants you list are still dealing with the aftermath of the person who victimised them to an extent. Ryuji has running but it’s tied into how much Kamoshida hosed up his life and the life of his track team, Yusuke has art but he still deals with the complicated feelings Madarame creates in him, Futaba’s confidant is all about helping her deal with her problems socialising so she doesn’t go back to being a shut-in, Haru directly deals with the mess her father left behind; the odd one out is really Makoto whose confidant is kind of weird but even then it’s about her trying to relate to her fellow students better so things like the Kaneshiro problem can’t spread again, and she gets a more meaty narrative segment involving Sae as main plot anyway. Meanwhile Ann’s confidant Is almost entirely self-contained, except for the stuff involving Shiho.

Also Ann doesn’t have to make it in modelling, even with the current resolution (that she has to actually work hard to succeed even with her natural modelling talents) it’s not like she needed to actually work to be noticed, her parents are fashion designers or something so she’ll always have an easy way into the industry. The “real” problem with making Ann’s confidant about her and Shiho and their relationship is that it basically makes the protagonist a superfluous character.

Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 26, 2020

StolenTeeth
Oct 11, 2016
I was kinda hoping Ann's brief interest into going into acting might actually go somewhere, and she'd get cast in a couple B-movies. I think it would've been more interesting than her deciding to stick with modeling, because she doesn't have the connections that led to her modeling success, and she seems way more into the idea of acting than she does modeling.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
If you're friends with Futaba and Haru, I imagine that you could get connections to anywhere if you wanted.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




What if they had made Shiho a temporary party member for this part and then she's done and the focus of Ann's confidant afterwards?

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another spring commute
The problem with making Shiho a full fledged party member is that she then by the design of the game has to be a romance option, which means you can choose to romance the recent rape victim. It's not impossible to make that work, but this is not the writing team that I expect to handle such a relationship with the care and nuance required for it not to come off as absolutely terrible.

I've talked about it before in the general thread I think, but imo Ann's main problem is that after Kamoshida she doesn't really have much to do. Ryuji at least has an arc where being a PT goes to his head and he starts to focus more on the glory then actually helping people, because being a PT is the only part of his life that makes him feel a sense of belonging and agency. Ann... kinda has that flaw as well but not nearly as much, and she more than any other party member really fades into the background as the group grows. It also doesn't help that her confidant isn't great and doesn't really have much conflict: Ann doesn't struggle in the face of the adversities of her career the way Rise does, rather she's continually upbeat about being shown up by somebody else and just keeps vowing to get better until eventually she does. That's a healthy attitude no doubt, but as a story it's pretty boring to watch unfold. Again I'm not advocating for everybody wallowing in misery, but a confidant where Ann actually had to grapple with her friend's suicide attempt and how she feels that she failed Shiho by not speaking out sooner would do a lot more for her character.

idk, even after writing all that Ann is mostly fine. Her issues are way down on the list of things I could criticize about this game.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014



Yeah I think that the problems with Ann are less problems with her as a character (she’s fine, if a bit boring) and more the mega narrative where the game is constantly drooling over her after having had this introduction.

It’s also weird when Yusuke is all over her because outside of his intro and the weird separate dimension that is the anime cutscenes in this game, he’s not that into her. But it happens right after this arc so it just makes him and the rest of the cast (and by extension the writers) look god awful.

Flair
Apr 5, 2016

Sydin posted:

The problem with making Shiho a full fledged party member is that she then by the design of the game has to be a romance option, which means you can choose to romance the recent rape victim. It's not impossible to make that work, but this is not the writing team that I expect to handle such a relationship with the care and nuance required for it not to come off as absolutely terrible.

They could make it so that Shiho is a full fledged party member but is not romancable. There is precedence in past Persona games where you could not romance a party member, despite them being of the opposite sex and heterosexual, because of completely valid reasons. I would welcome, once again, the kind of writing where they will turn you down regardless if the social link is maxed out.

Flair fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 27, 2020

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003

I buy feet pics🍆

In the hands of a capable writer, any and all of these objections can be surmounted.

What people are questioning is whether such a writer exists with Atlus.

fucking love Fiona Apple
Jun 19, 2013

samus comfy so what

There are some very well written characters in the game. It's just that the quality of the writing is massively inconsistent.

Some of the new stuff in Royal is so much better written then vanilla it almost feels like it's not the same game.

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Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


hopeandjoy posted:

Yeah I think that the problems with Ann are less problems with her as a character (she’s fine, if a bit boring) and more the mega narrative where the game is constantly drooling over her after having had this introduction.

It’s also weird when Yusuke is all over her because outside of his intro and the weird separate dimension that is the anime cutscenes in this game, he’s not that into her. But it happens right after this arc so it just makes him and the rest of the cast (and by extension the writers) look god awful.

I've suggested in the past that Yusuke's introduction is him trying to emulate Madarame, who I could absolutely see doing such a thing to an adult model and having it work. It explains somewhat neatly why he never acts like it again, it's him seeing something he has little previous experience with (girl he finds beautiful) and acting in a way he does find familiar (act like Madarame) even though his intentions are very different from Madarame's (Yusuke does it purely for the art, Madarame is probably doing it as a method of easy romance).

Basically an extension of how for the first parts of the Madarame dungeon Yusuke is basically a second Madarame until he sees the truth of his master's (father) monstrous nature.

I wonder if they'd included a moment in Yusuke's confidant where he asks the protagonist to model nude for him would've helped or hurt this whole situation.

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