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Niwrad
Jul 1, 2008



Reinsdorf said that Sam Smith told him the source was Phil. Speaks a lot to Sam Smith's journalistic integrity and probably why he has a job with the Bulls writing puff pieces.

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GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

I still enjoy Sam's articles, even if he doesn't poo poo on his bosses anymore. The guy has it made.

Zeta Acosta
Dec 16, 2019




First ep and Jerry Krause was that bad or he is made to be the bad guy like they did with Prost in the Senna doc?

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Crook County

Jerry Krause and Jerry Reinsdorf are deservedly two of the most hated men in Chicago.

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004



Zeta Acosta posted:

First ep and Jerry Krause was that bad or he is made to be the bad guy like they did with Prost in the Senna doc?

Krause was a legitimately great GM. He inherited Jordan from previous GM Rod Thorn, who drafted him, and let's face it having Jordan on the team was like 80% of it but there's a reason why the Bulls had Jordan destroying everyone from his rookie year on and never won poo poo and that's because the Bulls sucked. Krause put together the whole supporting cast; other than Pippen and Jordan, the entire rest of the team was different for the two threepeats. The strikes against Krause were that he was a pain in the rear end to deal with and hosed people over whenever possible, but the fact is that he was the Bulls GM because owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who deserves a lot more blame, liked having him be the bad guy with agents and players because he is one of the cheapest owners in the NBA. Reinsdorf's priorities are making money, which is a normal owner thing, but also an obsession with unshakable loyalty to weird and incompetent front office guys. He's the reason why the Bulls have pretty much stunk since Jordan, with the exception of the Skiles run and the Rose era.

But the other thing about Krause is that by all accounts he seems like an unpleasant guy and was the perfect foil for the team-- one of the important functions he had was being so despised by the players and by Phil Jackson that he may have helped keep them together by having someone to rail against. His run with the Bulls after Jordan left was a complete loving disaster-- Tim Floyd was incompetent, and his plan to build around two 18 year-old centers blew up although it didn't help that the #2 overall pick who was supposed to be the point guard of the future got into a career-ending motorcycle accident.

The fact of the matter is that if there is a case to be made for Krause, it won't be found in this documentary because everyone else involved hated him and Reinsdorf is more than happy to hide behind his corpse and pretend that he didn't allow Krause to operate in a way that alienated his team because it saved money. Like, from a Moneyball standpoint, locking up Pippen to that insane contract was an incredible move. But yeah, the read that he wanted to get rid of everyone because he wanted more credit is not inaccurate and was a completely insane and dumb way to be. But mainly gently caress Jerry Reinsdorf and his dumb kid.

R.D. Mangles fucked around with this message at 03:26 on May 21, 2020

Miss Lonelyhearts
Mar 22, 2003




Watched the whole thing, I liked that you still got a sense of peoples' personalities and how they interacted with peers and others. As others have mentioned, it was interesting to see how Jordan literally turned it on for some people. He went from poo poo talking Burrell to telling a front office guy he's going to slide a championship ring onto his finger in the blink of an eye.

On of my favorite tangential pieces is Phil Jackson's journal-like musing on the season, published in Espn Magazine in '98. I've never read his books, his writing is very much an extension of his personality - insightful, soothing, and contemplative.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/pa...agazine-archive

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004



Miss Lonelyhearts posted:

Watched the whole thing, I liked that you still got a sense of peoples' personalities and how they interacted with peers and others. As others have mentioned, it was interesting to see how Jordan literally turned it on for some people. He went from poo poo talking Burrell to telling a front office guy he's going to slide a championship ring onto his finger in the blink of an eye.

On of my favorite tangential pieces is Phil Jackson's journal-like musing on the season, published in Espn Magazine in '98. I've never read his books, his writing is very much an extension of his personality - insightful, soothing, and contemplative.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/pa...agazine-archive

The guy he told that to was assistant coach, inventor of the Triangle Offense, and brief and unsuccessful Northwestern head coach Tex Winter.

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004



I think the person who came out the best from this is Phil, whose last foray into the NBA was a loving disaster and had everyone making fun of the triangle and for his dumb remarks about LeBron having a "posse" or whatever but now gets to bask in a Jordan documentary where he appears to be one of five people on the planet Jordan respected. The only person who goes after Phil sort of is Doug Collins, lol.

R.D. Mangles fucked around with this message at 03:25 on May 21, 2020

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Yeah Krause hosed up the rebuild (although even then he actually brought in a lot of good young players like Chandler, Artest, and Crawford, even if they never really worked out in Chicago) and his inability to control his ego broke up the team earlier than it should have but prior to that he was a legit hall of fame executive. There's probably never been anyone who was better at finding small school players, he grabbed Kukoc in the second round before Dirk made drafting European players a normal thing, and he got Rodman in exchange for loving Will Perdue at a time when he was considered an uncoachable pariah. I don't doubt he sucked to work with but Reinsdorf is a well know cheapskate when it comes to the Bulls and Krause took a lot of bullets that should have been directed at him.

Miss Lonelyhearts
Mar 22, 2003




R.D. Mangles posted:

The guy he told that to was assistant coach, inventor of the Triangle Offense, and brief and unsuccessful Northwestern head coach Tex Winter.

Cool, I also liked the brief history of the Triangle Offense, which I knew nothing about. Though I didn't recognize Tex, they should've given him a little name + title when he showed up.

Zeta Acosta
Dec 16, 2019




R.D. Mangles posted:

Krause was a legitimately great GM. He inherited Jordan from previous GM Rod Thorn, who drafted him, and let's face it having Jordan on the team was like 80% of it but there's a reason why the Bulls had Jordan destroying everyone from his rookie year on and never won poo poo and that's because the Bulls sucked. Krause put together the whole supporting cast; other than Pippen and Jordan, the entire rest of the team was different for the two threepeats. The strikes against Krause were that he was a pain in the rear end to deal with and hosed people over whenever possible, but the fact is that he was the Bulls GM because owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who deserves a lot more blame, liked having him be the bad guy with agents and players because he is one of the cheapest owners in the NBA. Reinsdorf's priorities are making money, which is a normal owner thing, but also an obsession with unshakable loyalty to weird and incompetent front office guys. He's the reason why the Bulls have pretty much stunk since Jordan, with the exception of the Skiles run and the Rose era.

But the other thing about Krause is that by all accounts he seems like an unpleasant guy and was the perfect foil for the team-- one of the important functions he had was being so despised by the players and by Phil Jackson that he may have helped keep them together by having someone to rail against. His run with the Bulls after Jordan left was a complete loving disaster-- Tim Floyd was incompetent, and his plan to build around two 18 year-old centers blew up although it didn't help that the #2 overall pick who was supposed to be the point guard of the future got into a career-ending motorcycle accident.

The fact of the matter is that if there is a case to be made for Krause, it won't be found in this documentary because everyone else involved hated him and Reinsdorf is more than happy to hide behind his corpse and pretend that he didn't allow Krause to operate in a way that alienated his team because it saved money. Like, from a Moneyball standpoint, locking up Pippen to that insane contract was an incredible move. But yeah, the read that he wanted to get rid of everyone because he wanted more credit is not inaccurate and was a completely insane and dumb way to be. But mainly gently caress Jerry Reinsdorf and his dumb kid.

The makers of the doc are bold faced jackasses because they portray Jordan as an rear end in a top hat but He WaNtEd tO WiN and the poor fat guy who maybe got bullied his entire life looks like crap when he cant defend himself. Also if someone should be Chicagos number one enemy should be the bastard who hasnt fired Jim Boylen yet

Spacebump
Dec 23, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations


I wonder how much this documentary getting rushed changed it. They finished the last two episodes about two weeks ago.

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008


The one person Michael Jordan hates more than anyone else in this world is former Chicago Bulls General Manager Jerry Krause. All because Krause had the audacity to build a team around Jordan and help Jordan win his six rings.

Krause was a former basketball scout and current baseball scout, noted for discovering Earl Monroe and Phil Jackson and developing a good relationship with the future coach, when Jerry Reinsdorf, who owned both the Bulls and the White Sox (for whom Krause was scouting for at the time), hired Krause to run the Bulls front office. Krause was tasked with building a team around Jordan, who was seen as a great scorer and a hell of an athlete, but not a leader or someone who was capable of winning a title. It was still a big man's league, with Houston's twin towers of Ralph Sampson and (H)Akeem Olajuwon excepted to dominate against Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics, and Patrick Ewing's Knicks were expected to contend as well.

So as part of his first draft, Krause looked to add size. Even though Jordan wanted Duke guard Johnny Dawkins, who gave Jordan fits in college when the two competed (and for Jordan to be complimentary of a Duke player was rare, though Jordan doesn't hate Duke as much as he hates NC State), and the organization went as far as to tell Coach K that Dawkins was their pick, Krause swerved everyone and took Ohio State forward Brad Sellers.

Sellers was an all-Big Ten forward his senior year, averaging just under 20 points and 13 rebounds a game. His strength was a versatile mid-range game, which would allow the Bulls to stretch the floor and pull the Ewings away from the basket, which would give Jordan more room to operate. If Sellers lived up to his potential, he would be a solid complimentary piece to Jordan and help move the Bulls up the ladder.

Jordan, as we would all expect by this point, was livid. He wasn't close to the status he is now or was at his peak, but the Bulls were unquestionably his team and Jordan was growing used to getting his way. Krause drafting Sellers over Dawkins, especially after the Bulls had been committed to the latter pick, is what immediately soured Jordan on the portly GM. Michael would make it his mission to destroy Sellers in practice, throwing elbow after cheapshot elbow into Seller's kidneys and doing everything possible to make Sellers' life a living hell. He would pull Seller's bags off of team buses and planes, instruct room service to ring Seller's room at all hours of the night, and do everything short of planting drugs on Sellers to let him know that he was not welcome.

Sellers never lived up to his potential and was ultimately made expendable when Krause later drafted Horace Grant, who might be the only person to come out of Clemson that doesn't completely poo poo the bed when faced with a high-pressure moment. Jordan and Krause had a rocky relationship from that point on, but there was one more trade that would put Krause permanently on Jordan's shitlist.

The Detroit Pistons started their rise in the later 80's, as Bird's Celtics were beginning the downside of their arc. They were one of the few teams that could reliably hold Jordan in check, utilizing their "beat the everloving poo poo out of him" defense. The Bulls' counter to that was Charles Oakley, a mean motherfucker who acted as the equivalent of a hockey enforcer and was Jordan's closest friend on the team. But neither Oakley nor Sellers could reliably defend a franchise center like Ewing, and Krause looked to shore that gap by adding Bill Cartwright, a center playing out of position on the Knicks due to Ewing manning the middle. Cartwright wasn't as great a rebounder as Oakley was and had a reputation (undeserved, btw) as being soft, but he could score when called upon and was capable of locking down scoring centers, which is what the Bulls needed.

When the Oakley/Cartwright trade happened, Jordan and Oakley were in Vegas to see a Mike Tyson fight when they found out about the trade on television. Jordan reportedly smashed a VIP area in anger and needed Oakley to run interference on the casino guards to keep Michael from going to jail. The two flew back to Chicago, so Oakley could pack his gear and keep Michael from killing Krause when Jordan saw him. But Oakley was gone, and no one else was going to protect Krause from his bully.

As mean as Jordan was to Sellers, he was ten times that to Krause. In public, he would take potshots at Krause, with little snippets to the media here and there. In private, it was significantly worse. It was reported that Jordan called Krause "crumbs," after seeing Krause with powered donut on his face. The reality is, of course, far worse.

The old Chicago Stadium didn't have the on-site training facilities that today's modern arenas have, so the Bulls had to train in a separate gym. Nutrition wasn't as thought of back then, so a spread would consist of breakfast carbs and pastries. One day, Krause was enjoying a donut from the spread when Michael saw him taking from the player's food. Incensed, Jordan tried to forcefeed the entire box of donuts down Krause's throat, calling him "crumbs" among every other profane name in the book.

That wasn't the only poor behavior Jordan displayed against Krause. In addition to demanding that Reinsdorf fire Krause on untold occasions (Reindsdorf, one of the few people in position to tell Jordan no and live to tell that tale, never budged, having faith in his hiring decisions), Jordan would bully and haze Krause whenever possible. Krause would be on the phone in his office when Jordan would come in and shove all of Krause's stuff off the desk. If Krause was at a urinal, Jordan would come along side and urinate on Krause. On more than one occasion, Krause would be eating in the hotel lobby when Jordan would come spit in his food, letting "crumbs" know that he needed to lose some weight. (That led Krause to start eating all his meals in private, even when Jordan wasn't in the same hemisphere, and gave way to a severe weight disorder Krause fights to this day.)

Krause did himself no favors with an aloof attitude and disdain towards others in the Bulls' and league offices. A great relationship with Phil Jackson sparked by Krause scouting Jackson led to hiring Jackson as coach, which led to the Bulls' six titles. But the two of them had a falling out and Jackson won't speak Krause's name to this day. Even Krause and Reinsdorf ended on bad terms, with the two barely speaking to each other outside of professional capacity towards the end of Krause's term.

In the end, the Bulls won six titles, even as everything collapsed during the sixth title run in '97-'98. Krause blew up the team, with Jackson retiring, Pippen being traded to the Houston Rockets, a number of younger players being brought in, and Jordan retiring for the second time. Jordan would ask Reinsdorf one final time to fire Krause and hire him as GM, which Reinsdorf would once more refuse. And thus Jordan's time with the Chicago Bulls was over.

While he's never gone on record, it's widely assumed that the reason Jordan wanted to go into an NBA front office was to show Jerry Krause that it was Jordan, and Jordan alone, who won those six NBA titles. It wasn't due to Krause trading for Bill Cartwright and Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, wasn't due to drafting Horace Grant or hiring Phil Jackson or convincing Toni Kukoc to play in the U.S. It was all because of number 23, and Jordan was going to show Krause just how easy it was to for Michael Jordan to build a championship team.

As we've all seen, Jordan's failed magnificently in this regard. Through his time with the Bullets and Bobcats, Jordan's ineptness as an executive is widely documented. Oddly enough, for a player who was legendary for his work ethic matching his boundless talent, Jordan has never shown a willingness to put in the work necessary, as opposed to Krause who enjoys sitting in the stands with a notepad and pen. To this day Krause serves as a baseball scout, seeing more games in a month than Jordan watches in a year.

In the end, Michael Jordan's greatest foe was a short, fat man who's greatest crime was making Jordan the legend he is today. And if that doesn't speak to Michael's character, nothing will.

SilvergunSuperman
Aug 6, 2010



Spacebump posted:

I wonder how much this documentary getting rushed changed it. They finished the last two episodes about two weeks ago.

The weirdest part for me was the inclusion of MJ's kids, with what they did why even bother?

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006



SilvergunSuperman posted:

The weirdest part for me was the inclusion of MJ's kids, with what they did why even bother?

I think maybe in a less rushed doc they would've been cut, but I don't think MJ was ever going to let anything to do with his family in. It dramatically weakens the documentary though as Hehir has to fill everything in with "Wow, Michael Jordan sure was good at basketball, guys!"

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008


Imagine what this would have been like if Jordan didn't have complete control over it.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Panzeh posted:

I think maybe in a less rushed doc they would've been cut, but I don't think MJ was ever going to let anything to do with his family in. It dramatically weakens the documentary though as Hehir has to fill everything in with "Wow, Michael Jordan sure was good at basketball, guys!"

Yeah they were still cutting the last episodes when the first one started airing and Stockton didn't even get interviewed for it until like March right before everything locked down.

MourningView fucked around with this message at 14:04 on May 21, 2020

BWV
Feb 24, 2005



The podcast with Shoemaker and Curtis (I forget the name but it has a box) had some good points about the documentary. One was that to just approach the thing as MJ's memoir. When you think of it like that you get less hung up on all of its failures as an investigative documentary. Another is that the popularity of the series (because it's the only new thing on) has led to a lot of younger people newly engaging with 90s sports radio debates they weren't around for. I've found this to be completely true and it's funny how many interactions I have where we end up just throwing around hot takes about the Bulls as if this all didn't happen 25 years ago.

Zeta Acosta
Dec 16, 2019




Just finished the thing that was straight up character assasination of Jerry. Poor guy, i just found iout that he died before getting inducted into the nba hall of fame.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Jerry Krause was a very good scout, but a tremendously petty man and a yuge dickhead

Him and MJ were made for each other

R.D. Mangles posted:

I think the person who came out the best from this is Phil, whose last foray into the NBA was a loving disaster and had everyone making fun of the triangle and for his dumb remarks about LeBron having a "posse" or whatever but now gets to bask in a Jordan documentary where he appears to be one of five people on the planet Jordan respected. The only person who goes after Phil sort of is Doug Collins, lol.

Considering Phil managed to get Rodman of all people to generally focus up, it says something that Phil didnt care for Kobe at all

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


More vanilla hagiography coming but at least the game footage will be amazing because of NFL Films

https://twitter.com/MichaelWeinreb/...1784596481?s=20

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

This neckbearded nerd has incredibly stupid opinions on fantasy firearms.

"Remember, Mastershakeman is literally always wrong."







Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

Jerry Krause was a very good scout, but a tremendously petty man and a yuge dickhead

Him and MJ were made for each other


Considering Phil managed to get Rodman of all people to generally focus up, it says something that Phil didnt care for Kobe at all

I legit think Phil is an incredible coach solely by virtue of being able to manage egos and keep people focused. It sounds simple but no one else could have handled Kobe/shaq , Jordan or rodman

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


If youíre going to do a long series doc on football it needs to be the 90s cowboys

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

Funny how everyone loved the 90s Bulls but everyone hated the 90s Cowboys.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 16 days!


in football people root for the underdogs (as long as they're still respectable), in basketball people support sustained excellence

in baseball people root for dingers; it is the purest expression of fandom

Woofer
Mar 2, 2020


Declan MacManus posted:

in football people root for the underdogs (as long as they're still respectable), in basketball people support sustained excellence

in baseball people root for dingers; it is the purest expression of fandom

This was false through the 2010s.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 16 days!


Woofer posted:

This was false through the 2010s.

lebron was unfairly vilified but people warmed up to the heat eventually, and the warriors have a giant bandwagon and most people (that aren't Online) tend to like them

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


GreenNight posted:

Funny how everyone loved the 90s Bulls but everyone hated the 90s Cowboys.

They were definitely hated by a lot of people but they were also by far the most popular team in the league

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.


A ton of people hate the Bulls and Jordan, but they were the first dynasty when the NBA also expanded their reach across the globe, so they became instantly popular with anyone outside the US.

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



morestuff posted:

More vanilla hagiography coming but at least the game footage will be amazing because of NFL Films

https://twitter.com/MichaelWeinreb/...1784596481?s=20

This is like a decade too early; I cannot imagine watching a long documentary about loving Tom Brady anytime soon. Give me more time to forget his bland, awful chokehold on the league.

Dinosaurs!
May 22, 2003



MourningView posted:

They were definitely hated by a lot of people but they were also by far the most popular team in the league

Every millennial who grew up outside Texas has that one friend who bandwagoned the Cowboys because of those 90s teams. Fortunately the universe balanced itself out right as we hit the poo poo-talking peak of young adulthood by serving up a streak of heartbreaking Cowboys losses that continues to this very day.

Redgrendel2001
Sep 1, 2006

you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.


Dinosaurs! posted:

Every millennial who grew up outside Texas has that one friend who bandwagoned the Cowboys because of those 90s teams. Fortunately the universe balanced itself out right as we hit the poo poo-talking peak of young adulthood by serving up a streak of heartbreaking Cowboys losses that continues to this very day.

It's one of the few signs of a just and rational God.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Dinosaurs! posted:

Every millennial who grew up outside Texas has that one friend who bandwagoned the Cowboys because of those 90s teams. Fortunately the universe balanced itself out right as we hit the poo poo-talking peak of young adulthood by serving up a streak of heartbreaking Cowboys losses that continues to this very day.

look it seemed like a good idea when I was 8 ok

Silly Burrito
Nov 26, 2007

Get the hell
out of my way.



New Orleans Saints:
Three Straight


Championships!




Lipstick Apathy

Dinosaurs! posted:

Every millennial who grew up outside Texas has that one friend who bandwagoned the Cowboys because of those 90s teams. Fortunately the universe balanced itself out right as we hit the poo poo-talking peak of young adulthood by serving up a streak of heartbreaking Cowboys losses that continues to this very day.

And had the matching Starter jacket.

Dango Bango
Jul 26, 2007

"Yup, it looks like his head went so far up his own butt-hole that it exploded right back out his pee-hole and he died in a cataclysmic shower of his own blood and poop and pee."
- Too Much Mustard


GreenNight posted:

Funny how everyone loved the 90s Bulls but everyone hated the 90s Cowboys.

The 90s Cowboys had Texas attached to them

Demon Of The Fall
May 1, 2004



Nap Ghost

I rocked a bright teal and orange Dolphins starter jacket and thought I was the coolest little poo poo. Itís still in the closet at my dads house.

Zeta Acosta
Dec 16, 2019




Rodman was a bad rear end. Except that time he kicked that guy in the balls.

Niwrad
Jul 1, 2008



GreenNight posted:

Funny how everyone loved the 90s Bulls but everyone hated the 90s Cowboys.

Football has more fans of teams while basketball seems to have a lot of fans of players. Like there are a ton of people who cheer for the team Lebron is on. I don't think a bunch of Pats fans will suddenly become Bucs fans next year.

Bulls had some carryover fans from the era, but outside of a few of the Rose years, no one outside Chicago has given a poo poo about the Bulls.

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

Super Benintendo!


Niwrad posted:

I don't think a bunch of Pats fans will suddenly become Bucs fans next year.


Lol. Maybe not in New England but all these Florida Pats fans have definitely become Bucs fans over night. Ask me how I know.....Iím one of them lol

Their season ticket demands didnít go up the day after Brady signed for no reason lol

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Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 16 days!


Demon Of The Fall posted:

I rocked a bright teal and orange Dolphins starter jacket and thought I was the coolest little poo poo. Itís still in the closet at my dads house.

hell, same

Niwrad posted:

Bulls had some carryover fans from the era, but outside of a few of the Rose years, no one outside Chicago has given a poo poo about the Bulls.

to be fair, that momentum from the jordan era might have carried over better if krauseís twin towers had worked out, or if the baby bulls ever got over, or if reinsdorf wasnít simultaneously cheap as gently caress and irrationally loyal

shame about yíall being the wizards in cst though

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