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Dixville
Nov 4, 2008

I HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS AND DID AN OOPS BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHIT HAPPENS. ps tom brady is GOAT


Ham Wrangler

PET FOODS!

It's a huge industry with over 30 billion dollars in sales in the US annually and rising year by year. We got pets and we gotta feed 'em!

As you can imagine, there are many different companies and even more different products out there, from specialized prescription foods that actually treat illnesses, to Old Roy.

So, what food should you buy? Who should you ask? Are veterinarians just bought off by the food companies so you can't trust them? Does a pet store sales person have a degree in nutrition?

The simple answer is the best food is the one your personal pet does best on. You also need to be able to afford it. There are companies nowadays making individually shipped products that are made of only human grade ingredients that might be a better diet than what you yourself eat. Can everyone afford that kind of diet? Nope! Should you still own a pet if you can't feed them home cooked kangaroo every day? Yep!

The answer to what product to choose can be overwhelming.

There is an excellent guide to selecting a pet food written by Tufts Veterinary School:
https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2019...your-pets-food/

It's so good that I don't think I could say it any better, so I'll quote the majority of it here...

quote:

Common Mistakes in Selecting Pet Food

Do you do base your decision on any of the following?

The ingredient list. Many pet owners select diets based on ingredients in the ingredient list that sound good to them, rather than on the diets that are most nutritious and made with the best nutritional expertise and quality control. Remember that pets need nutrients, not ingredients. You can learn more about information in the ingredient list that is helpful and what can cause more confusion from our past Petfoodology posts.

The most persuasive labels. Most of the information on the pet food label is marketing, rather than factual information. Just because diets contain ancient grains or superfoods doesn’t make them the best options for your pet.

Ratings websites. Current ratings websites base their ratings on marketing information (or myths), not on which diet has the best nutrition or quality.

Recommendations from the pet supply store: Your veterinarian can help you select the best food for your pet. Pet supply store employees may be promoting the food that has the highest profit margin, the store’s private label brand, or the ones with the best marketing, rather than what is really the best food for your pet.
If any of these are part of your decision-making process, you might be falling victim to pet food myths and misinformation and not really selecting the optimal diet.

Making Good Decisions for your Best Friend

You love your pet, you’re passionate about her nutrition, and want to feed her the best diet possible. What can you do to ensure you’re buying what is really the best food for her?

Talk to your veterinarian. In our study, veterinarians were the most common primary source for nutrition information and were also rated as the most important source. Not every veterinarian likes discussing nutrition as much as we do, so if it’s not your veterinarian’s favorite topic, schedule an appointment with a Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionist® (some will even do remote consultations with owners) .

Ask important questions about your pet food – most of the important factual information you need is not on the label, such as whether they employ qualified nutritionists or use rigorous quality control practices, but this information should be available from the manufacturer. Some of the important criteria from the World Small Animal Veterinary Association have been compiled in a tool from the Pet Nutrition Alliance (updated annually).

Be a skeptic about nutrition on the internet. The internet can be a tremendous resource but also can be an unreliable source of myths, misinformation, or even completely false information. Learn to be a more objective user of the internet, especially for pet nutrition topics. Researching the site’s author and sources of information, as well as discussing the information with your veterinarian can help you to avoid common pitfalls with nutrition on the internet.

The jist of it is - don't get caught up in marketing hype. Do your research. I recommend sticking with major well established pet food brands vs exotic or boutique foods that haven't been around as long, in general. Don't buy the cheapest thing you can get either. But don't just buy the expensive stuff thinking it MUST be good!

What about grain free?
There have been FDA reports of heart disease connected to grain free diets. It is not generally recommended to feed these diets right now. There is just too much we don't know about why this is happening. Here is more info:
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...etween-diet-and

What about raw feeding?
I don't recommend this. There's just too much risk of contamination with microbes and there isn't really good science to back up its claims.

What about home cooking?
The truth is home cooking usually isn't worth the time or expense, but if you feel strongly that you want to do it, I recommend using balanceit.com or similar nutritional supplements. BalanceIt gives you recipes to add their supplement powders to. They should be well nutritionally balanced this way. Our nutritionist at school recommended it. You can always also consult with a Veterinary Nutritionist but this is pretty pricey so not that many people do it. It is the best, though, if your animal has multiple health issues that affect their diet (such as kidney disease and skin allergies).

I hope this thread is helpful and I would love to hear any brands that people stand behind or that you feel like your pet does so much better on this particular food.

Edit: for those who are interested in home cooking, or want to talk to someone with the most expertise possible about their pets diet, there are veterinary nutrition services out there. Most of them will work through your gp and you can get a referral to consult with them via phone and or email.

Some examples:
https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/vmc/Sm...es/default.aspx
https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/hosp...nimal/nutrition

There's also this search tool on the American College of Veterinary Nutrition website
https://acvn.org/directory/

Dixville fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 5, 2020

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Dixville
Nov 4, 2008

I HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS AND DID AN OOPS BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHIT HAPPENS. ps tom brady is GOAT


Ham Wrangler

Stealing this from the old thread...


Transition Slowly - If your pet eats the same thing every day and you suddenly feed him something new, he's probably going to get diarrhea or barf everywhere. You need to make a gradual change. Decrease the amount of old food and increase the amount of new food (mix them together) over a period of at least a week. If your pet starts having softer stool, you're probably going too fast.

Don't feed "exotic" protein sourcesunless you have a good reason - A lot of brands offer "fancy" flavors of food like bison, venison, rabbit, duck, etc. Unless your pet has a food allergy or won't eat anything else, pick a normal flavor of food like chicken, turkey, beef, etc. Food allergies can develop at any time in a pet's life for no reason, and the best way to manage them is to feed a protein source that the pet has NEVER eaten before (a "novel protein"). If you feed your pet a bunch of weird protein sources like bison and kangaroo and rabbit, and then he develops food allergies a few years down the line, you're not going to have any good options for a novel protein.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



My roommate has been a veterinary technician for about half a decade and she swears by Hill's Science Diet. I can confirm that once I made the switch from your now-standard Blue Buffalo Wilderness Canine Dry Food I saw a marked increase in my pet's coat. She's remarkably more soft and plush, for a thirteen year-old no less. I can't speak to the wider nutrition, but it's still a step up from your average Pedigree/Purina One stuff.

I feed her the Small Paws Adult 11+. The cocker on the cover is a coincidence, I'm sure.





Ballz
Dec 16, 2003

it's mario time



Are we completely throwing out the "wet food vs. dry food" for cats debate that was in the old OP?

Boogalo
Jul 8, 2012

Meep Meep






Wet food is better for your cat (mostly due to moisture) but is also expensive so you're not a bad person if you feed high quality dry food that your cat likes. If you feed dry, try to have a fountain since that'll help your idiot drink more.

My delicate princess with IBS needs prescription selective protein no fish at all food and wet for a month would be $300 so she gets dry and its only $60/mo.

Boogalo fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Apr 21, 2020

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

To throw my anecdotal experience into the mix, my dog used to be on a grain-free food, Acana Limited Ingredients.

Now he's on a prescription cardiac diet, after he went into congestive heart failure before age 5 due to severe DCM, which the cardiologist said is almost certainly caused by the grain-free food because it's extremely rare for this to happen this badly to a dog that's this young and doesn't have any particular aggravating factors.

Obviously this is just one anecdote, the FDA still says that the number of cases is still very small and that only a tiny percentage of dogs are likely affected, the link is neither clear nor conclusive, and so on. But even if the overall risk is low, the prognosis can be pretty lovely if your dog is one of the unlucky ones, so think twice about taking that bet unless your dog really needs to have specifically grain-free food.

Dixville
Nov 4, 2008

I HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS AND DID AN OOPS BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHIT HAPPENS. ps tom brady is GOAT


Ham Wrangler

Boogalo posted:

Wet food is better for your cat (mostly due to moisture) but is also expensive so you're not a bad person if you feed high quality dry food that your cat likes. If you feed dry, try to have a fountain since that'll help your idiot drink more.

My delicate princess with IBS needs prescription selective protein no fish at all food and wet for a month would be $300 so she gets dry and its only $60/mo.

Yeah this is how I feel about it. Mix of wet and dry might be a good compromise too. I need to replace the fountain that broke it really did make a difference for water intake for my cat.

Yeah there are obviously some pretty big differences from the old thread. I'm open to any discussion on that and anything I may have left out. I decided not to do a list of "good and bad" brands just because that can change over time, companies buy each other out and whatnot so I felt it would be longer lasting advice to just say how to choose a diet in general vs listing certain brand names.

I know the old thread was really big on ingredients and recommended more meat vs corn soy etc, I stand by the advice from Tufts on that, some of these diets with corn and whatnot are from companies that thoroughly test their foods and have shown that they are good through scientific testing. The nutrient profiles are good even though you wouldn't necessarily feed your dog a plate of corn. It's not the same as that. I have no problem with people looking for meat based foods as long as they are still well tested and the ingredients are high in quality. Keep in mind that meat, if it's included in ingredients, will contain a proportionately higher amount of water than more processed ingredients so it will show up sooner on the ingredients list due to weight of the water as well. So labels can be a little misleading in that way.

Dixville
Nov 4, 2008

I HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS AND DID AN OOPS BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHIT HAPPENS. ps tom brady is GOAT


Ham Wrangler

Main Paineframe posted:

To throw my anecdotal experience into the mix, my dog used to be on a grain-free food, Acana Limited Ingredients.

Now he's on a prescription cardiac diet, after he went into congestive heart failure before age 5 due to severe DCM, which the cardiologist said is almost certainly caused by the grain-free food because it's extremely rare for this to happen this badly to a dog that's this young and doesn't have any particular aggravating factors.

Obviously this is just one anecdote, the FDA still says that the number of cases is still very small and that only a tiny percentage of dogs are likely affected, the link is neither clear nor conclusive, and so on. But even if the overall risk is low, the prognosis can be pretty lovely if your dog is one of the unlucky ones, so think twice about taking that bet unless your dog really needs to have specifically grain-free food.
This is my feeling on it too. The other concern is how many dogs may be out there with subclinical heart disease that hasn't been diagnosed because the only way to see it would be xrays or echo.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

Asking someone where they live might be a good idea, if we have enough people in that area to recommend pet shops that carry good food. Here in Seattle it's pretty easy, but could be harder in Small Town, Iowa.

Boogalo
Jul 8, 2012

Meep Meep






Charles posted:

Asking someone where they live might be a good idea, if we have enough people in that area to recommend pet shops that carry good food. Here in Seattle it's pretty easy, but could be harder in Small Town, Iowa.

For anyone in the US, chewy.com is the champion. Orders over $50 ship free and they will fill prescription foods if you email them a picture of the script. They save me $20 a bag on my cats food and I just autoship it every 5 weeks for another couple% or so discount along with a refill of litter. You can also add whatever items you want to your next autoship as a one-time thing.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

Boogalo posted:

For anyone in the US, chewy.com is the champion. Orders over $50 ship free and they will fill prescription foods if you email them a picture of the script. They save me $20 a bag on my cats food and I just autoship it every 5 weeks for another couple% or so discount along with a refill of litter. You can also add whatever items you want to your next autoship as a one-time thing.

They sell poo poo like Meow Mix and Kibbles and Bits though
edit: I mean in addition to the good stuff. I like one of the local chains here in Seattle, Mud Bay, because their staff goes to nutrition courses and they only carry stuff that's good, so I can just pick a few things at random off the shelf and my dog is happy to have new stuff.

effika
Jun 19, 2005
Birds do not want you to know any more than you already do.

Would love some more cat stuff in the OP; the cheap-wet-food vs good-dry-food bit was enlightening from the old thread.

Also don't forget feed and grain stores for specialty pet food. We have some local ones that are happy to order pet food since it is an agricultural product.

Fluffy Bunnies
Jan 9, 2009

We'll roll on with our heads held high.
Our conscience in the gutter,
Our dreams up in the sky.




Dixville posted:

What about grain free?
There have been FDA reports of heart disease connected to grain free diets. It is not generally recommended to feed these diets right now. There is just too much we don't know about why this is happening. Here is more info:
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...etween-diet-and


We literally know exactly what's causing this and it isn't just grain-free diets; there are plenty of legume-heavy (vegan, for instance) diets that are coming up in this, too. The uptake of taurine is being blocked by large amounts of legumes in carnivore pet foods. The percentage of pets it effects is almost 0. The DCM you're referencing but for some reason not getting into here is literally based around the lack of taurine available to the dog/cat/fox.

Homemade is amazing. Raw is great. Kibble is fantastic for lots of dogs, too.

If anyone wants to talk about pet food from someone who has spent years researching it, worked with several pet food companies, and has worked elbow to elbow with vet nutritionists in creating specialized food plans for animals in zoos, at home, and everywhere in between, feel free to PM me. I will talk animal food all day long.

E: If your pet's food is leaving much to be desired, speak to veterinary nutritionists who devote their lives to what goes into your pet not general practice vets. They aren't hard to find and almost all of them take phone calls for simple questions like "what value does pork kidney have for my dog?" and will work remotely with you. Your GP vet may be the one pulling the blood and sending information to the nutritionist, but your GP vet does not get the depth of education in this field that the specialist vet does. I'm also happy to direct people to them, so just hit me up if you need it.

Fluffy Bunnies fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Apr 22, 2020

Snowy
Oct 6, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 25 days!


Fun Shoe

effika posted:

Would love some more cat stuff in the OP; the cheap-wet-food vs good-dry-food bit was enlightening from the old thread.

Yeah I could use more of that 🐈

Dixville
Nov 4, 2008

I HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS AND DID AN OOPS BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SHIT HAPPENS. ps tom brady is GOAT


Ham Wrangler

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

We literally know exactly what's causing this and it isn't just grain-free diets; there are plenty of legume-heavy (vegan, for instance) diets that are coming up in this, too. The uptake of taurine is being blocked by large amounts of legumes in carnivore pet foods. The percentage of pets it effects is almost 0. The DCM you're referencing but for some reason not getting into here is literally based around the lack of taurine available to the dog/cat/fox.

Homemade is amazing. Raw is great. Kibble is fantastic for lots of dogs, too.

If anyone wants to talk about pet food from someone who has spent years researching it, worked with several pet food companies, and has worked elbow to elbow with vet nutritionists in creating specialized food plans for animals in zoos, at home, and everywhere in between, feel free to PM me. I will talk animal food all day long.

E: If your pet's food is leaving much to be desired, speak to veterinary nutritionists who devote their lives to what goes into your pet not general practice vets. They aren't hard to find and almost all of them take phone calls for simple questions like "what value does pork kidney have for my dog?" and will work remotely with you. Your GP vet may be the one pulling the blood and sending information to the nutritionist, but your GP vet does not get the depth of education in this field that the specialist vet does. I'm also happy to direct people to them, so just hit me up if you need it.

That's a good point and I'd be happy to add nutritionist info to the op. I'll add some of the nutrition services I'm familiar with.

jimmychoo
Sep 30, 2008

creepin n rollin



Has anyone tried one of these fancy new subscription meal services? my cat's eaten the same food his entire life (s/o to the pet nutrition thread 10 years ago) but these seem p drat convenient.
he still eats his food with gusto but i wonder if he'd like a change

Grantaire
Jul 16, 2009

oh what a world


I haven't been in this forum since it was PI, but I based my cat food choices on the pet food threads (Wellness Core Indoor dry) and now that one of my elderly kitties is starting to deal with some kidney disease I was hoping to mine your resources again. The vet is recommending Hill's or Royal Canin, which I'm not dismissing out of hand, but I remember vets explicitly saying Hill's at least pays clinics to promote them, so I want to get some other opinions before I pull the trigger on anything.

Basically just doing Food For Old Cat Kidneys research, but every website I go to seems to be based on ads and I'd appreciate insight. I know poo poo's changed over the years and I'm completely open to being corrected and pointed in the right direction.

Also here's Dixie because she's a supermodel and it's disgusting

MikeyTsi
Jan 10, 2009



Grantaire posted:

I haven't been in this forum since it was PI, but I based my cat food choices on the pet food threads (Wellness Core Indoor dry) and now that one of my elderly kitties is starting to deal with some kidney disease I was hoping to mine your resources again. The vet is recommending Hill's or Royal Canin, which I'm not dismissing out of hand, but I remember vets explicitly saying Hill's at least pays clinics to promote them, so I want to get some other opinions before I pull the trigger on anything.

Basically just doing Food For Old Cat Kidneys research, but every website I go to seems to be based on ads and I'd appreciate insight. I know poo poo's changed over the years and I'm completely open to being corrected and pointed in the right direction.

Also here's Dixie because she's a supermodel and it's disgusting



I fed my CKD cat Farmina Renal.

I. M. Gei
Jun 26, 2005

I fear the man who has hit one dinger ten thousand times.




Crossposting from the Foster/Rescue Megathread:

I. M. Gei posted:

I just fed them for the first time since todayís vet visit, and Kelly still doesnít want to eat much. It seems she isnít going for the Nutri-Cal.

Also now Kenan is doing the exact same poo poo. He was inhaling entire bottles of food at every feeding before. Now he wonít eat more than about 1 tablespoon, same as Kelly.

So it looks like whatever is wrong with Kelly is spreading.

I can think of two possibilities for whatís going on:
1. Both kittens ate some kitty litter and have an intestinal blockage (the litter in their box is unscented paper litter, though thereís a little bit of the clay stuff on the floor that spilled out from their previous box)
2. They have some sort of spreadable illness or parasite

Iím wondering if either of these things might mean I need to take both of them to the vet before Monday. Or if something else is going on.


EDIT: wait...... could this be a sign that I should start giving them food in bowls?

These kittens are right around 4.5 to 5 weeks old now.

I donít know how much yíall know about kittens, but could this refusal-to-eat business be a sign that my kittensí digestive systems are switching from Formula Mode to Meat Mode, so I need to start giving them less milk replacer and more wet food?

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001

If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!


Grantaire posted:

I haven't been in this forum since it was PI, but I based my cat food choices on the pet food threads (Wellness Core Indoor dry) and now that one of my elderly kitties is starting to deal with some kidney disease I was hoping to mine your resources again. The vet is recommending Hill's or Royal Canin, which I'm not dismissing out of hand, but I remember vets explicitly saying Hill's at least pays clinics to promote them
Just for reference, nobody is like, getting a check from Royal Canin for promoting them. It'd be fair to argue that Hills and Royal Canin have the ear of veterinarians more so than other companies, due to their sponsoring of Continuing Education, the occasional food rep stopping by with lunch for the clinic, etc, but your veterinarian isn't meeting in a shady alley and getting paid to shill food they don't believe in. Vet clinics recommend those brands because we are familiar with them, and we've seen them work well for our patients, and frequently for our own animals.

I've got a dog on RC's hypoallergenic diet and one on Urinary SO and the foods have been absolute life changers for both of them. My allergy dog was a patient of ours who for 9 years came to us over and over for horrible skin infections, thick, reddened skin, oozing sores, constant ear infections. We would treat the infection, and try to convince the owner to switch to a hypoallergenic diet, and she never did, despite occasionally buying some. The owner passed away, I ended up adopting her, treating her infections (ear and skin) and putting her on RC HP. 2 years in, and she hasn't had a single flare up. Skin and coat are beautiful, no ear infections, and her weight is perfect. So when I recommend RC, there's no nefarious motives, just good experience.

That being said, any vet who is resistant to you doing your own research and looking at other options is being close minded. Those diets aren't magical, and if you do your research and choose a science-based option for your pet that works, awesome! It just bums me out to see people suspicious of their vet's motives.

Boogalo
Jul 8, 2012

Meep Meep






My vet is definitely getting a check from royal canin considering they charge $20 more than chewy for the same bag of cat food. That said, getting on a proper prescription diet made a world of difference for my farty cat with IBS and a fish allergy.

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001

If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!


Boogalo posted:

My vet is definitely getting a check from royal canin considering they charge $20 more than chewy for the same bag of cat food. That said, getting on a proper prescription diet made a world of difference for my farty cat with IBS and a fish allergy.
Or, your vet doesn't buy in the same bulk as chewy and doesn't get the same discounts. Or your vet *does* overcharge on food and prescriptions in order to help with overhead costs, the same as any business might. (Your mechanic is not gonna be the cheapest place to buy parts, for example).

Grantaire
Jul 16, 2009

oh what a world


Whatever the case, I ended up going with RC and Dixie is obsessed with it, so it feels like the right call! I hope it helps her put on some weight.

TenementFunster
Feb 20, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 25 days!


is there a consensus about the best dry cat food that isn't a zillion dollars (say, under ~$30 for a 10lb bag) and available at kroger/target/etc? my tabby has had everything from meow mix to science diet, and seemed happiest/healthiest with Nutro's recently-discontinued Max Cat. i got some Iam's for the time being, which he seems to enjoy and doesn't make his shits smell too awful, but have no idea. it seems like all the internet reviews any cat food are either obviously Sponsored Content or will make my cat drop dead.

anyway, i don't want to spend $40 a bag or have to drive all the way to hang out with the freaks who work at petco unless it's going to be objectively better for a cat that will happily house a bowl of meow mix

Freakbox
Dec 22, 2009

Tasted Too Much Rainbow!!!


Hey there thread- I feel less scared asking questions in a shiny new place.

I'd like some advice on switching dry foods for my 50 pound, 3 year old pibble/greyhound mix. He's been eating a lesser known brand called meridian but it's grain free and I just learned about all this scary stuff. So I've been browsing.

Nutro "Ultra" is grain inclusive but wheat free and looks good? Here's a picture of what he's eating now (and their "statement" on DCM and grain free diets) compared to what I was looking at.

Current Food:




Contender:


Thank you so much for any Advice; there's lot of conflicting stuff out there!

Bonus- say hi to Bucky. He wants your food. All of it.

Freakbox fucked around with this message at 04:38 on May 29, 2020

Buff Hardback
Jun 11, 2019


TenementFunster posted:

is there a consensus about the best dry cat food that isn't a zillion dollars (say, under ~$30 for a 10lb bag) and available at kroger/target/etc? my tabby has had everything from meow mix to science diet, and seemed happiest/healthiest with Nutro's recently-discontinued Max Cat. i got some Iam's for the time being, which he seems to enjoy and doesn't make his shits smell too awful, but have no idea. it seems like all the internet reviews any cat food are either obviously Sponsored Content or will make my cat drop dead.

anyway, i don't want to spend $40 a bag or have to drive all the way to hang out with the freaks who work at petco unless it's going to be objectively better for a cat that will happily house a bowl of meow mix

so a couple things: Chewy is a goddamn miracle and i always laugh when i make petsmart employees price match against chewy

Two, there's nothing really that stands out from the pack in terms of pet food at grocery stores. I've been using Instinct by Nature's Variety for Artemis for about 9 months now (either their regular kibble in chicken, their raw boost [kibble plus freeze dried pieces] in chicken, and switching it up to salmon next month), and it's worked out very well for her. Her coat is super soft and silky, she's svelte and in her perfect weight.

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Hutla
Jun 5, 2004


I buy the Costco brand salmon ($30 for 18 lbs) and it's rebranded Taste of the Wild. Plus they deliver it for no extra money.

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