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Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

mcmagic posted:

Was anyone else sure that when Ellie was back on the farm with Dina and the baby that it was all a dream and she would just like wake up and get killed? That is why i found her leaving again not believable.
Yes, but the even more unbelievable reason was Tommy's insistence. I can understand that Tommy's desire for vengeance can be 'explained' in a fashion, and they allude to his darker side with conversations between Ellie and Dina early on (they also come across a tortured WLF solider that they suspect was done by Tommy), but then again Tommy, like many of the characters, is largely written all over the place. On the whole though, through TLOU1 and in parts of 2, he's presented as relatively rational and the more forward-thinking brother, but perhaps more importantly he understands the connection Joel and Ellie have - especially at the beginning when after Joel confesses to him what he did, he said he would 'probably make the same choice'.

To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me.

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BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Abby is virtuous because she lifts unlike lazy pothead Dyellie

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

Skippy McPants posted:

Also, "the last taboo," is a terrible phrasing for a whole mess of reasons.

For real, Tom Cruise isn’t even a taboo!

e:

Endorph posted:

saturn games from 1992

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



Gameplay: pretty fun. Some of the setpieces are pretty cool and I wish the big village bit at the end was longer and had more done with it in exchange for some of the duller parts

Graphics: very nice

Technically: the lack of load screens other than when you die is a nice touch that NaughtyDog has been doing since Jak and Daxter
Length: is pretty solid and the various accessibiliy options means that even though it's a single player story driven game, it's still reasonably replayable and you get your money's worth

Accessibility:
No seriously, not a lot of people talk about the accessibility options but they go beyond what they did for Uncharted 4 and it's pretty amazing, they committed to letting you be able to play the game regardless of reaction times or however poo poo you might be at gaming

Story: has some hits and misses. Lots of points seem to be rammed in over and over again because most gamers are dumb, which means that if you have any ability to critically read media you can feel like you're being talked down too. Some of the little character moments are nice.

Pacing: the biggest thing dragging the game down, at some point I should've turned on auto-highlighting for collectibles so I wasn't dragging my rear end over every wall

Overall: solid 7 to 8 out of 10 game, dunno why people call it bad. Even if you wanna just skip every cutscene you can tweak all the accessibility stuff and run around having a decent time.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006

Shepard.


College Slice

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me.

To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically.

ZaronYeras
Sep 14, 2007


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

So you think the themes of this game have no relevance to modern Western society?

I don't think I'd say western, I think it just has no relevance in general. But I'm sure the game has more to it than just that one theme (I mean that non-sarcastically).

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

In many Australian Aboriginal communities justice has traditionally been executed through a method called "payback" where leaders or elders from the involved groups will agree on a punishment to be exacted upon the perpetrator in order to give the community a sense of closure and prevent unmitigated retaliation. It can often involve violence upon the perpetrator. The practice continues to this day but although there is debate about whether it should be allowed to continue and its clearly at odds with state law.

If you want a good example of constant back-and-forth vengeance without any kind of mediatory oversight, look no further than the history of colonialism, where colonists would respond to a perceived crime by the colonized by massive retaliatory violence. See the history of Australian and American settlement.

I've not heard Druckmann's podcasts, but if he simply frames these kinds of conflicts as a simple back-and-forth between "equals", rather than an outcome of colonization, it demonstrates a massive blind spot within his psyche as an Israeli-American.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Phobophilia posted:


I've not heard Druckmann's podcasts, but if he simply frames these kinds of conflicts as a simple back-and-forth between "equals", rather than an outcome of colonization, it demonstrates a massive blind spot within his psyche as an Israeli-American.

Nah he doesn't do this

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy.




Happy_Misanthrope posted:

To love his brother and understand the bond he had with Ellie, then try and shame her into heading back out in the hellworld she escaped just as she found the life she deserved (well, maybe - I had a body count around 200 by then), which he should know that's what Joel would want for her, was ludicrous to me.

He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him.

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

I will outlast the Chinese government's buying of fat lady avatars with the true grit of the greatest generation

Seedge posted:

He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him.

Yeah she hosed him up bad lol

ZaronYeras
Sep 14, 2007


Phobophilia posted:

If you want a good example of constant back-and-forth vengeance without any kind of mediatory oversight, look no further than the history of colonialism, where colonists would respond to a perceived crime by the colonized by massive retaliatory violence. See the history of Australian and American settlement.

I've not heard Druckmann's podcasts, but if he simply frames these kinds of conflicts as a simple back-and-forth between "equals", rather than an outcome of colonization, it demonstrates a massive blind spot within his psyche as an Israeli-American.

So I think this example actually highlights why this theme annoys me. I don't see stuff like that as a cycle of revenge, I see it as european powers trying to dominate everyone else, with their primary motivation being "because they can." It's not like indigenous peoples turning the other cheek would have solved anything (sometimes they did and it didn't solve anything).

Peacoffee
Feb 11, 2013

"After all, tomorrow is another motorcar!"





It’s not a very useful message for this moment in time certainly. It comes across as very “both sides”

Doesn’t make it a bad game, but just because people weren’t willing to play other games with lgbtq characters doesn’t make this big budget one the “taboo” breaker (which, yeah what the gently caress is with that phrasing).

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!


Phylodox posted:

To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically.

I think I've seen this episode of Every Sitcom.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Seedge posted:

He wants revenge for himself, too. He gets dumped by Maria and is clearly distraught about that: he got shot in the face and can hardly walk. He's still up upset about Joel, of course, but he wants Abby to pay for what she did to him.

Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable.

I mean you can basically hand-wave away any of the ridiculous decisions characters make in this game with "PTSD!!", sure. It's extremely arbitrary.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Phylodox posted:

To be fair, in the interim he suffered a pretty major head trauma, which can gently caress you up not just psychologically but physiologically.

Yeah that's every character in the game at some point

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy.




Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable.

He knows Ellie is the only person he can ask to do this. If Tommy goes up to any Jackson patrol person and says "Hey, can you travel across several states to get revenge for me" they ain't gonna do poo poo.

He has disregard for Ellie's safety because he doesn't give a hoot about anything but his own pain.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Tommy "Kazuhira" Miller: Why are we still here? Just to suffer?

^burtle
Jul 17, 2001

God of Boomin'



Almost feels like I just played Last of Us 2 and 3 but they didn’t think Abby’s story would play well first so Ellie’s story is wrapped around it.

Ineffiable
Feb 16, 2008

Some say that his politics are terrifying, and that he once punched a horse to the ground...

ZaronYeras posted:

Thinking about this game got me wondering, is there ever even a such thing as a "cycle of revenge" in real life? I feel like almost all the problems of the real world are caused by people making GBS threads on each other for no justifiable reason, not because they just can't let go of the time someone murdered their dad. There's sometimes a cycle of abuse, but even then it very rarely involves getting revenge on perpetrators and is usually more of a string of innocent victims. The closest I can think of is when two people in a relationship hate each other but stay together, and the solution to that is for them to break up.

There's that whole hatfields and mccoy family feud.

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

I will outlast the Chinese government's buying of fat lady avatars with the true grit of the greatest generation

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Yeah like I said he has his motivations, but the disregard for Ellie's well-being is what I find unbelievable.

I mean you can basically hand-wave away any of the ridiculous decisions characters make in this game with "PTSD!!", sure. It's extremely arbitrary.

Ellie is pretty capable. If I had beef and I was hosed up she'd be who I'd nominate to avenge me.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



JBP posted:

Ellie is pretty capable. If I had beef and I was hosed up she'd be who I'd nominate to avenge me.

So in this hypothetical, the person you'd designate to be your avenger would be one that would bail out of said vengeance at the last minute, deciding they've grown

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

I will outlast the Chinese government's buying of fat lady avatars with the true grit of the greatest generation

Ham Sandwiches posted:

So in this hypothetical, the person you'd designate to be your avenger would be one that would bail out of said vengeance at the last minute, deciding they've grown

I don't think she bailed as much as her mate got killed, her uncle got shot in the face and crippled and her pregnant gf was lying in a pool of her own blood. She was good for another try and Tommy wasn't wrong, she did get to Abby. Best option.

Unless you mean that Tommy had perfect knowledge of the plot and could see the future or something.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



JBP posted:

I don't think she bailed as much as her mate got killed, her uncle got shot in the face and crippled and her pregnant gf was lying in a pool of her own blood. She was good for another try and Tommy wasn't wrong, she did get to Abby. Best option.

Unless you mean that Tommy had perfect knowledge of the plot and could see the future or something.

She gets to Abby and then leaves her alive and goes off on her merry way, it seems like a weird thing to describe this person as a supreme avenger since they didn't even complete the act of vengeance in the game about it.

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

I will outlast the Chinese government's buying of fat lady avatars with the true grit of the greatest generation

Ham Sandwiches posted:

She gets to Abby and then leaves her alive and goes off on her merry way, it seems like a weird thing to describe this person as a supreme avenger since they didn't even complete the act of vengeance in the game about it.

You mean at the end of the game? How would you know that Abby was going to be an emaciated wreck? If Ellie found Abby at the firefly HQ living free and easy there'd be a hundred dead fireflies and a dead Abby.

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!



She realised she wasnt seeking vengence but was angry at not reconciling with joel and lashing out its p obvious

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



If Ellie was actually interested in killing Abby she would have slit her throat when she was hung up on the pillars. Even if she wants to "torture her like she tortured Joel" she could have done so right then and there, it's all set up for her. Instead she forces a 'fair' one on one.

She has a need to feel justified/absolved/superior. At the end she has 'won' and realises that it's not helping at all, which is why she stops.

Refused
Sep 6, 2005


My read on why Ellie ultimately stopped short at the end is because she needed to believe forgiveness was possible, even for what Abby did - or, more importantly, for what Joel did at the end of the first game. If she killed Abby in that moment it would have foreclosed on the possibility of forgiveness not just for Abby but for Joel as well. It would be admitting that he was lost to her forever, dead to her even before he was killed.

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Refused posted:

My read on why Ellie ultimately stopped short at the end is because she needed to believe forgiveness was possible, even for what Abby did - or, more importantly, for what Joel did at the end of the first game. If she killed Abby in that moment it would have foreclosed on the possibility of forgiveness not just for Abby but for Joel as well. It would be admitting that he was lost to her forever, dead to her even before he was killed.

Yea, I share a similar read.

Although I don't so much see it as her forgiving Abby, as it's her exclusively forgiving Joel (and Abby is simply wrapped up in that now). The act she forgives him for is the same act that gets him killed by Abby, so for her to kill Abby in vengeance would undermine her own forgiveness of Joel (which in that split second moment is what she realises she needs above all else). I think Ellie is an extremely damaged individual at that point, so I don't buy her decision to spare Abby as containing any altruism*.

*Although, this could be me just trying to reconcile her decision to spare Abby with all the damage she's done up to that point. It feels neater for me, at least.

Akapursch fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 29, 2020

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



As a particularly dark read: Abby living is a link to that last memory of Joel, however painful it may be.

Killing her and getting 'closure' would be letting go of him.

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess.

That said it's annoying that so much of the criticism is basically too many women, too much muscle on Abby's arms or too much LGBTQ. I can't stand the alt-right drivel anymore.

What also bugs me is that for all the improvements in gameplay I was harshly reminded that I'm still shooting grunts with a joypad at 30 fps. When the story turned to poo poo I tried to enjoy the actiony parts for what they were but man this game's hard to love. Your stealth options are alright but not that different from other games, shooting doesn't feel incredible and the way you collect resources just kills it for me.

In all honesty I think the only thing this game really excels at are environments, lighting, and facial animation. Even then, should I suggest a Naughty Dog game to anyone I'd go Uncharted 4 all day every day.

Zongerian
Apr 23, 2020



The pacing is really good

Sassy Sasquatch
Feb 28, 2013

If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.

Kawabata posted:

I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess.

That said it's annoying that so much of the criticism is basically too many women, too much muscle on Abby's arms or too much LGBTQ. I can't stand the alt-right drivel anymore.

What also bugs me is that for all the improvements in gameplay I was harshly reminded that I'm still shooting grunts with a joypad at 30 fps. When the story turned to poo poo I tried to enjoy the actiony parts for what they were but man this game's hard to love. Your stealth options are alright but not that different from other games, shooting doesn't feel incredible and the way you collect resources just kills it for me.

In all honesty I think the only thing this game really excels at are environments, lighting, and facial animation. Even then, should I suggest a Naughty Dog game to anyone I'd go Uncharted 4 all day every day.

There's an accessibility setting that highlights items for you if that makes it quicker. (it's still going to be boring though)

am0kgonzo
Jun 18, 2010


Kawabata posted:

I really don't understand where the meat of the game is supposed to be. Story-wise this is revenge porn with bad pacing and writing, with so much filler it's hilarious. Did they produce the assets before the story and were somehow forced to use all of them? The last 5 to 10 hours felt awkward and out of place in a way that's honestly embarrassing for a big budget game in 2020. Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore? He certainly was right about Last of Us 2 not being a "fun" game though, good for him I guess.

That said it's annoying that so much of the criticism is basically too many women, too much muscle on Abby's arms or too much LGBTQ. I can't stand the alt-right drivel anymore.

What also bugs me is that for all the improvements in gameplay I was harshly reminded that I'm still shooting grunts with a joypad at 30 fps. When the story turned to poo poo I tried to enjoy the actiony parts for what they were but man this game's hard to love. Your stealth options are alright but not that different from other games, shooting doesn't feel incredible and the way you collect resources just kills it for me.

In all honesty I think the only thing this game really excels at are environments, lighting, and facial animation. Even then, should I suggest a Naughty Dog game to anyone I'd go Uncharted 4 all day every day.

the shooting was one of the highlights for me

i like that the majority of the weapons are low firerate, high damage, the sounds are fantastic and the "next-gen gore" enhances the impact your weapons have

it's my favourite stealth-action/rambo type game

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

Why does Joel immediately trust Abby/her group btw, it feels like they dumbed him down a lot to use him as a plot device early on. And why in the hell Ellie leaves her scribbled map of all things for Abby to find.

The more I think about the story the dumber it looks.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Kawabata posted:

Why does Joel immediately trust Abby/her group btw, it feels like they dumbed him down a lot to use him as a plot device early on. And why in the hell Ellie leaves her scribbled map of all things for Abby to find.

The more I think about the story the dumber it looks.

don't they meet in the middle of a massive infected attack without much time for chat?

and doesn't Ellie get dragged away by Tommy in the middle of a nervous breakdown

Maybe you should think about it less and pay attention instead.

The Unnamed One
Jan 13, 2012

"BOOM!"

Joel rescuing Abby is one of the few inarguably selfless things the guy has done in either game.

Lol

Lmao

Pulcinella
Feb 15, 2019


Joel seems to also have softened up a bit over the years. Also I imagine Jackson gets a lot of visitors and people who want to join. There are some NPC conversations at the very beginning mentioning they are about to leave Jackson to return to their hometown, but they are going to miss electricity.

For all Joel knows Abby could have been someone trying to get Jackson and got caught up in a snow storm/hoard of infected.

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

The Unnamed One posted:

Joel rescuing Abby is one of the few inarguably selfless things the guy has done in either game.

Lol

Lmao

Yeah it's way out of character though. Both him and Tommy are in that scene.


Necrothatcher posted:

and doesn't Ellie get dragged away by Tommy in the middle of a nervous breakdown

Maybe you should think about it less and pay attention instead.

Lmao and she left a map on the ground that says "we are here" of all things. And Abby, after suffering countless silly detours in her 10 hours stretch, pulls a Daenerys and instantly zips from there to the theater. Come on now. It's ok to admit the game has a bad story, you don't have to be defensive about it.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Kawabata posted:

Yeah it's way out of character though. Both him and Tommy are in that scene.


Lmao and she left a map on the ground that says "we are here" of all things. And Abby, after suffering countless silly detours in her 10 hours stretch, pulls a Daenerys and instantly zips from there to the theater. Come on now. It's ok to admit the game has a bad story, you don't have to be defensive about it.

I'm sorry but the story is real good and even if it wasn't, trying to argue that via cinemasins level criticisms is dumb as gently caress

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Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

Necrothatcher posted:

I'm sorry but the story is real good

Yeah stopping a story in its climax to force you to play a character you don't care about for 10 hours is usually indicative of solid storytelling. I also loved the "oh but you see dogs aren't bad and you killed them" commentary and Abby's Dances with Wolves bit with the Scars, just groundbreaking stuff right there.

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