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Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Kawabata posted:

Yeah stopping a story in its climax to force you to play a character you don't care about for 10 hours is usually indicative of solid storytelling. I also loved the "oh but you see dogs aren't bad and you killed them" commentary and Abby's Dances with Wolves bit with the Scars, just groundbreaking stuff right there.

The switch in perspectives and playing as Abby is probably the best bit of the game. I mean, it's not groundbreaking fiction or anything but the game tells a decent story in an interesting way.

e: also I cared about Abby so maybe that's why it worked. She seemed pretty cool to me and I understood her motivations.

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Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




"I didn't like it" is different from "bad writing" or "bad storytelling." An unexpected perspective shift at a key moment is not in and of itself a bad idea. In fact it's a pretty cool idea that can add a lot of drama.

The inverse--"I liked it so it's objectively good"--is also true, FWIW, but I think I see less of that in this thread.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Kawabata posted:

Or, I don't know, is Neil Druckmann considered an "auteur" now (think Jim Sterling's pronounciation of auteur please) and he doesn't accept feedback anymore?
Based off his Twitter feed, apparently

quote:

What also bugs me is that for all the improvements in gameplay I was harshly reminded that I'm still shooting grunts with a joypad at 30 fps. When the story turned to poo poo I tried to enjoy the actiony parts for what they were but man this game's hard to love. Your stealth options are alright but not that different from other games, shooting doesn't feel incredible and the way you collect resources just kills it for me.
There are definitive improvements to the combat/stealth and I have fun, very much so at points, but yes it just feels 'clunkier' than other stealth games, it didn't progress on this as much from TLOU1 as I would have hoped.

That being said I think a PS5 version at 60fps would improve things considerably, which is no doubt coming. The degree of control you have in customizing the difficulty, and the fact they add new modes for New Game + and still allow you to change them on the fly makes a second playthrough viable even though I found the game incredibly dumb and tedious at points.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


I just went back and rewatched the scene where Abby and Lev find the discarded map and dang, Ellie really did circle her secret hideout where her pregnant girlfriend is hiding. Looks like all those blows to head have taken their toll. Or maybe the mutated growth in her head is pressing down on her brain.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

In It For The Tank posted:

I just went back and rewatched the scene where Abby and Lev find the discarded map and dang, Ellie really did circle her secret hideout where her pregnant girlfriend is hiding.

no she didn't

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.



I do like how Ellie weaponizes her immunity a few times in the game.

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

Necrothatcher posted:

no she didn't



That screenshot literally shows the Pinnacle Theater circled in blue, so uh

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Dewgy posted:

That screenshot literally shows the Pinnacle Theater circled in blue, so uh

it doesn't say that this is her secret hideout

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Hey Lev, what do you think the circle in the middle is?

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

Necrothatcher posted:

it doesn't say that this is her secret hideout

Yeah but Abby would know the significance of everywhere on the map except for that location. It's hardly a stretch.

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

Necrothatcher posted:

The switch in perspectives and playing as Abby is probably the best bit of the game. I mean, it's not groundbreaking fiction or anything but the game tells a decent story in an interesting way.

e: also I cared about Abby so maybe that's why it worked. She seemed pretty cool to me and I understood her motivations.

I think it killed any momentum the game had. And it didn't have much: this is a very nihilistic, monotone revenge story without any glimmer of hope for most of the characters. You do sympathize with Ellie at first but by the end of her bit it's already too much because you can clearly see that the guys she's killing aren't villains nor did they all share Abby's feelings.

I don't think Abby's story or character are badly written per se, but the execution certainly fizzled out. Flashbacks also either didn't help in her case (I think we could fill a stadium with LoU players and ask "who gives a gently caress about Owen here?", no one would raise a hand) or were just not enough. We should've seen more of her father and way, way less of her romantic relationship.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Necrothatcher posted:

don't they meet in the middle of a massive infected attack without much time for chat?

and doesn't Ellie get dragged away by Tommy in the middle of a nervous breakdown

Maybe you should think about it less and pay attention instead.

I agree that the best way to enjoy this game is to not think about it that much

Seriously though I think this critique in particular that "Joel became stupid!" is one of the weaker ones, it's obviously a contrivance that Joel finds himself right alongside Abby at that point, but they're literally just running for their lives the majority of the time and just caught their breath. Joel doesn't have a second to be wary of the humans he finds himself with after diving through a door to avoid his flesh being torn off.

Now Abby not giving the slightest bit of pause by having her life saved several times by Joel in the past 10 minutes before immediately blowing out his kneecap was a little more difficult to accept. Not that she would/should do it of course, Joel deserves it - but seeing the contrast with what she imagined him to be and how he recently acted would evoke a little more dialog

The Unnamed One
Jan 13, 2012

"BOOM!"

I can buy that Ellie forgot to pick up the map considering that she was still reeling from the fact that she had just murdered a pregnant woman, and had to be dragged away by Tommy and Jesse.

But yeah, putting an obvious circle in your secret hideout is... lacking.

By itself itís honestly not much, but itís another example of the several (obvious) plot contrivances that fill the game

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Now Abby not giving the slightest bit of pause by having her life saved several times by Joel in the past 10 minutes before immediately blowing out his kneecap was a little more difficult to accept. Not that she would/should do it of course, Joel deserves it - but seeing the contrast with what she imagined him to be and how he recently acted would evoke a little more dialog

Yeah that made her look way worse right off the bat.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Kawabata posted:

I think it killed any momentum the game had. And it didn't have much: this is a very nihilistic, monotone revenge story without any glimmer of hope for most of the characters.

Uh, man, that's like, the point dude

btw did you get the preorder ammo count bonus? It rules, more opportunity to see the brain bits slide down the wall! But anyways, you see violence just begets viole-

Kawabata
Apr 20, 2014

You plebians just don't know what epic literature is. You should try reading Stephanie Meyer, E.L. James, Dan Brown, or Ayn Rand.

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

Uh, man, that's like, the point dude

No I know but you need some contrast to make a story work and they had none. Almost no levity, no hope, no redemption, nothing. Just an ugly monotone story that left me wondering: eh, who cares?

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Kawabata posted:

Yeah that made her look way worse right off the bat.

I don't even care that much if that makes her less relatable as a sympathetic character, it's more that the dialog is what I remember most about TLOU1, how different it was compared to other games in that I rarely thought "Well that sounds like something a developer/c-grade writer would write to keep the story moving". The vast majority of conversations felt actual grown adult writers crafted them, they talked just more...'naturally' than any other game set in a relatively present-day setting than I've played previously.

This isn't the case with 2, the dialog and character motivations just come across as far more obvious plot contrivances, the manipulation is far more obvious and clumsy imo.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Kawabata posted:

No I know but you need some contrast to make a story work and they had none. Almost no levity, no hope, no redemption, nothing. Just an ugly monotone story that left me wondering: eh, who cares?

There's a tonne of levity and jokes in the game. The dinosaur museum section is positively wholesome.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Kawabata posted:

No I know but you need some contrast to make a story work and they had none. Almost no levity, no hope, no redemption, nothing. Just an ugly monotone story that left me wondering: eh, who cares?

I'm parodying the response I often see, I agree with you. That's why TLOU1's emotional moments hit much harder for me.

I think Sterling's review sums it up for me, in particular this segment (edit: oh god the opening music choice for that review is so perfect)

quote:

TLOU2 is so overwhelmingly grimy and sleazy that at no point do I feel like my expectations have been subverted. I go in expecting a miserable, slimy time, so rolling around in the slime isn't a surprise!

There's no rug here to pull out from under me, the floor is bare.

Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jun 29, 2020

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Necrothatcher posted:

There's a tonne of levity and jokes in the game. The dinosaur museum section is positively wholesome.
In flashbacks, which serve to largely remind you how much better it was when there was actually someone with a personality the oppressive atmosphere could actually contrast with. The closest analog is with Lev and Abby at points when climbing the building, but that's extremely brief.

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.



It would have been kind of funny if we saw more of Abbyís dad and each time heís revealed to be more and more of a lovely person.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

In flashbacks, which serve to largely remind you how much better it was when there was actually someone with a personality the oppressive atmosphere could actually contrast with. The closest analog is with Lev and Abby at points when climbing the building, but that's extremely brief.

There's plenty of funny dialogue between Ellie and Dina, Ellie and Jessie, Abby and Manny and Abby and Lev.

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

Necrothatcher posted:

There's plenty of funny dialogue between Ellie and Dina, Ellie and Jessie, Abby and Manny and Abby and Lev.
We have vastly different definitions of 'funny' then

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Happy_Misanthrope posted:

We have vastly different definitions of 'funny' then

Necrothatcher is right that there is clearly moments of levity

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

Necrothatcher is right that there is clearly moments of levity

Oh I was laughing at points that's for sure

Refused
Sep 6, 2005


Kawabata posted:

No I know but you need some contrast to make a story work and they had none. Almost no levity, no hope, no redemption, nothing. Just an ugly monotone story that left me wondering: eh, who cares?

The vast majority of Abby's segment is her personal search for redemption, which she ultimately finds in helping Yara and Lev.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Thoughts on this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzfbUs9udWY

Personally I disliked Ellie more than Abby.

The Unnamed One
Jan 13, 2012

"BOOM!"

Abby went out of her way not to kill anyone besides the focus of her revenge.

Ellie killed a fuckton of people and dogs that had nothing to do with her own revenge path, before ultimately letting Abby go.

Itís not even close lol

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

punk rebel ecks posted:

Thoughts on this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzfbUs9udWY

Personally I disliked Ellie more than Abby.

Don't feel like listening to YouTube slurred speech guy #347094, so I skipped through a bit and chuckled at him saying the half-ending at the ranch makes no sense because Ellie just spent a bunch of time shooting people. Reminds me of the guy who posted that the relationship between Joel and Ellie in TLOU1 made no sense because they kept time skipping and never showed them getting closer.

So, my take is: This guy's an idiot and just wants to bitch for clicks.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Dewgy posted:

So, my take is: This guy's an idiot and just wants to bitch for clicks.

Correct, I'm willing to consider the POV of people who disliked the game but "absolute failure" is obviously just hyperbolic clickbait

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



The title is clickbait but the actual video is more measured and I think it does a decent job of articulating why the characters actions don't make much sense. It contrasts the believable and well depicted scenes of grief with the absurd mass murder revenge quests the characters launch into.

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!



bobjr posted:

I do like how Ellie weaponizes her immunity a few times in the game.

That little, hardly noticeable smirk when the ponytailed Rattler points out she's been bitten and is running out of time ...

mcbexx fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jun 30, 2020

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014

I AM TRULY ONE OF THE WORST POSTERS ON THIS SITE. LOOK UPON THIS GUY MANN REREG AND DESPAIR.


Noam Chomsky posted:

I'm just going to assume you understand and somewhat agree but can't engage because it would impinge on your need to fanboy this game.

You are profoundly mentally ill. Seek help.

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!



I wonder what the ratio is between people who saw the first gameplay trailer (Ellie vs. Seraphites in the Hillcrest Mall) who cheered Ellie on and went "Holy poo poo, look at the combat and those insane kills, game is going to be siiiiiick" and those who said "Uh-oh, this game looks kinda violent. I don't think I will enjoy this. I hope there'll be a button to talk things over in civilized discourse this time."

Happy_Misanthrope
Aug 3, 2007

"I wanted to kill you, go to your funeral, and anyone who showed up to mourn you, I wanted to kill them too."

mcbexx posted:

I wonder what the ratio is between people who saw the first gameplay trailer (Ellie vs. Seraphites in the Hillcrest Mall) who cheered Ellie on and went "Holy poo poo, look at the combat and those insane kills, game is going to be siiiiiick" and those who said "Uh-oh, this game looks kinda violent. I don't think I will enjoy this. I hope there'll be a button to talk things over in civilized discourse this time."

...what

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

I think there is a larger intersection in the Venn diagram of the people who are horrified by and excited by the violence in this game than you think.

The violence in this game is "awesome" in the literal sense (as opposed to as a synonym for cool)

The best depictions of violence in media instil a sense of jouissance as we simultaneously experience the thrill of the perpetrator and the pain and horror of the victim

Like, what happens to Yara's arm in this game is one of the most awful things I've seen depicted in a video game, but it's also completely compelling. "Clip her wings" gently caress

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Dewgy posted:

Don't feel like listening to YouTube slurred speech guy #347094, so I skipped through a bit and chuckled at him saying the half-ending at the ranch makes no sense because Ellie just spent a bunch of time shooting people. Reminds me of the guy who posted that the relationship between Joel and Ellie in TLOU1 made no sense because they kept time skipping and never showed them getting closer.

So, my take is: This guy's an idiot and just wants to bitch for clicks.

He basically argues that with Ellie they took the "Last Jedi Approach" (he doesn't actually say this) in which they completely ignore her character arc of the previous game of her disliking violence to fit this game's themes.

As for Abby he just keeps saying she's a hypocrite because she claims she is for peace yet she keeps killing people. He was also disgusted how she had sex on the boat after talking about torturing Joel. He was also upset how the Washington Liberation Front spoke of the Scars as if they were inhuman and had to be killed. So how could she be a sympathetic protagonist?

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



Anyone who thinks a sudden perspective change at a climax is bad should never watch The Place Beyond The Pines.

Though to be fair I was not a fan of the last third of that movie.

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

bok bok bok





College Slice

punk rebel ecks posted:

He basically argues that with Ellie they took the "Last Jedi Approach" (he doesn't actually say this) in which they completely ignore her character arc of the previous game of her disliking violence to fit this game's themes.

As for Abby he just keeps saying she's a hypocrite because she claims she is for peace yet she keeps killing people. He was also disgusted how she had sex on the boat after talking about torturing Joel. He was also upset how the Washington Liberation Front spoke of the Scars as if they were inhuman and had to be killed. So how could she be a sympathetic protagonist?

Thank you for your service.

also, lmao

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punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

I will NEVER become THE PIRATE KING!!! I am just a lazy, hypocritical idiot.


Dewgy posted:

Thank you for your service.

also, lmao

I mean I found it odd because:

#1 Abby never killed anyone she didn't have to kill. Maybe it also has to do with "how you play the game" but I take a much more stealthy approach so the only characters Abby killed in my playthrough were characters who absolutely had to die or else she would have.

#2 Scars is just plain evil. They are basically the Khmer Rouge. And the game makes it clear that Abby and others dislike them because they don't "stay on their island".

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