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Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!



stev posted:

I think it gets very murky when you're talking about the story. The second a publisher starts saying 'the reviewer interpreted this art incorrectly and should change it' we're in very dodgy territory - even if they're technically correct in this instance (the best kind of correct).

It just feels like a line that shouldn't be crossed. If I were a reviewer and someone demanded that I amend my incorrect conclusions about a story I'd be very wary of having anything to do with them in future.

If my review of the first Avengers film says that the heroes dont team up in it because i stopped watching part way through, itd be a lovely review. Even if I put that review out during an embargo itd still be a lovely review becauss it got story beats wrong.

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stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.





Pocky In My Pocket posted:

If my review of the first Avengers film says that the heroes dont team up in it because i stopped watching part way through, itd be a lovely review. Even if I put that review out during an embargo itd still be a lovely review becauss it got story beats wrong.

I'm not debating that it's a lovely review, it absolutely is. I just don't think Sony themselves has the right to complain about it.

A better analogy would be saying the Avengers never considered themselves part of a team.

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy.




Taintrunner posted:

Honestly I think that's a large part of what pissed off so many people, as someone who finished TLOU:Remastered right before playing TLOU2 - Joel didn't get a chance to go out like a man. He's immediately wiped off the loving board and it's completely humiliating, all due to nothing but, from his perspective, nothing but incredibly unlucky coincidence.

It loving sucks poo poo as a storytelling device.

Joel dies because he's spent years softening. He and Tommy suggest that Abby's group come to Jackson to resupply, so it's not the first time they've encountered groups of strangers on patrol. There's also the patrol logs Ellie reads where they find survivors and bring them back to Jackson instead. Joel's guard is down because that's how he's lived for the last four years.

If you wanna get all grognard about it, he's standing in the middle of the room surrounded by eight to ten soldiers with no weapon in his hands. The gently caress was he going to do?

JBP
Feb 16, 2017

I will outlast the Chinese government's buying of fat lady avatars with the true grit of the greatest generation

stev posted:

I'm not debating that it's a lovely review, it absolutely is. I just don't think Sony themselves has the right to complain about it.

A better analogy would be saying the Avengers never considered themselves part of a team.

It's your publisher's job to ring up and loudly what the gently caress at anyone that opposes your success.

chinigz
Nov 12, 2016


Taintrunner posted:


It's literally the wheat field trad-GF fantasy that all the fascists dream of, and it's incredible that it's presented totally uncritically, especially from the perspective of a psychotic mass-murdering white woman

Can't say I found the atheist/jewish unmarried lesbian couple with their interracial adopted baby particularly trad or fascist myself. At least they're not in Jackson, a gated community.

Perfectly Safe
May 30, 2003

no danger here.

There's a fairly large spider in my bathroom. It's been there for over 24 hours. It's in a position that means I can't get a glass over it. I am fairly scared of spiders but don't approve of killing them.

Stormgale posted:

Actually i'll pick up on one more thing. If the enemies at all behaved like humans instead of killbots that occasionally went "HOLY poo poo MY FRIEND IS DEAD", getting scared and actually trying to escape, being afraid I'd give this game a lot more credit. You can handwave away Ellie being only able to press X to death by her need for revenge (I Think the game needed more distinctions for that to tack but not my point), but how the enemies act just really numbs the situation for me.

I stand by my conviction that this would have worked just fine if there hadn't been so many of them. The behaviours that they have are affecting at first. But you become so familiar with their limitations that it becomes a parody of itself; it goes from "I should care about this" to "the game's trying to trick me into caring about this" very quickly. "Oh no, they killed [algorithm searches for a name that hasn't already been used] Alan!" is not enough to carry the idea that these are people through several hours of Oh, more of these guys. I'm sure, on the other hand, that this was all great for the people who got to play a preview for an hour, and I feel like that was the point.

A lot of the problems with the way that this game feels would have been resolved if a big chunk of it hadn't been "fight your way through occupied territory". On what level does this make any sense?

stev posted:

As dumb as he's been you can certainly see why Druckmann has been so defensive of this. I can't imagine putting so much energy into a single project for six years only for it to be torn apart by chuds before it's even finished. Even legit criticism would be hard to take under those circumstances.


The record breaking sales and 10/10s probably help soothe him though.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that they're at ease with the anticipated reaction of the chuds. It hasn't hurt sales, it creates a shield that allows legitimate criticism of the game and ND to be dismissed, and it's a pretty good PR opportunity generally - people are talking about TLOU2 and have been for a long time.

What Druckmann does not like - what, indeed, game publishers don't like - is assessments of their games that don't come in the form of unrelenting praise. And the structure of the relationship between top tier game publishers and established game review organisations means that they feel somewhat entitled to 10/10 scores and sycophantic adoration. In such an environment, mockery and fairly consistent criticism of the game itself (amazing technical achievement but the story has issues is a pretty common refrain) feels very much like oppression.

Fellatio del Toro posted:

god now I'm thinking about the parallels and implications if, instead of the dumb rattlers, Ellie finally catches up with Abby and she's with the Fireflies
Awkward social situations.

Perfectly Safe fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jul 3, 2020

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Taintrunner posted:

The main problem with The Last of Us 2 is that the entire series is racist as gently caress. The Black family in TLOU1, the Asian siblings in TLOU2, Manny being a spicy sexpot Latino stereotype, not to mention the other minority characters that exist only to be tortured or die horribly for the sole purpose of motivating the cis white women player characters - the only reason people of color exist in The Last of Us is to be misery porn motivators for the white player characters. It's incredibly disturbing and quiet frankly, with everything going on, I'm shocked it hasn't been more openly condemned.

Yeah I hope whatever ND does next doesn't just use non white characters as pawns to be killed off as character studies for the white protagonists.

It's weird because Uncharted the Lost Legacy is in a sense very progressive in having two non white female leads, but who are played by white women. I'm non white myself and actually am not offended by that game and have some sympathy for the idea that games and voice acting don't need to be bound by the race of the actor, but as a whole it does paint a pretty weird picture.

If they make a game with a non-white lead played a non-white actor that would be pretty cool

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Perfectly Safe posted:

There's a fairly large spider in my bathroom. It's been there for over 24 hours. It's in a position that means I can't get a glass over it. I am fairly scared of spiders but don't approve of killing them.
Then use it to get internet famous. Make photos and post it in the Critterquest thread. We might be able to tell you what it is and how scared for your life you should be. (it is very scared)

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

It's weird because Uncharted the Lost Legacy is in a sense very progressive in having two non white female leads, but who are played by white women. I'm non white myself and actually am not offended by that game and have some sympathy for the idea that games and voice acting don't need to be bound by the race of the actor, but as a whole it does paint a pretty weird picture.
Kratos is voiced by a black man. Ever watch the Stargate TV show? He's Teal'c.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Cardiovorax posted:

Kratos is voiced by a black man. Ever watch the Stargate TV show? He's Teal'c.

Kratos is black though, but ashen, so he's white

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011
I got chased out of the Monster Hunter thread for garbage posting, now I shit up other Games threads with useless low-effort uninformed aggro noise. I somehow think "VN nerds" are beneath me and I belong on your ignore list.

Are you serious and Greek people are considered black by US standards these days? Because as a European I honestly don't even want to make assumptions anymore when it comes to how crazy you guys are willing to be about race stuff like that.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



The voice acting thing is incredibly dumb because one side is going “ok, no more white actors playing POC roles!” and the other side is going “we as POC voice actors don’t want to stop getting cast as white characters, but we also would like to not only get cast as minorities either, so in order for any of this to matter, we need more diversity in production and writing staff or this is all meaningless!” and the response has been “Kristen Bell gave up her role, what more do you want?!”

Cardiovorax posted:

Are you serious and Greek people are considered black by US standards these days? Because as a European I honestly don't even want to make assumptions anymore when it comes to how crazy you guys are willing to be about race stuff like that.

No Greek people are definitely white here in 2020, like Italians or Irish.

stev posted:

I'm not debating that it's a lovely review, it absolutely is. I just don't think Sony themselves has the right to complain about it.

I think there’s a difference between an unfavorable review (game is bad) and a lovely review (reviewer fails to complete game and says objectively incorrect or untrue things about the game) and gaming journalists are seemingly totally immune to criticism and should honestly not be immune to pushback just because the company who made the game is big and successful.

Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Jul 3, 2020

Perfectly Safe
May 30, 2003

no danger here.

Necrothatcher posted:

I mean, maybe. But regardless of the embargo review rules it's still factually incorrect to say "Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance."
I think it's accurate in the sense that he means it - it's just not accurate for all possible interpretations of what he says. Characters reacting to event and circumstance are not the same as characters who are reflecting on whether they're doing the right thing.

Cardiovorax posted:

Then use it to get internet famous. Make photos and post it in the Critterquest thread. We might be able to tell you what it is and how scared for your life you should be. (it is very scared)

It is a common house spider. It is of no danger to me whatsoever. My fear of spiders does not stem from a rational assessment of the amount of danger the spider presents to me. I am well aware that I am very frightening to the spider, but that doesn't help because that just makes it do things like running, which I do not care for. It's sitting in its web and I have no expectation that it plans to move. I have little fear that it's going to crawl across my face in the night. But whenever I go into the bathroom, I have to fix my eyes on it. I cannot not look away because I have to make sure that I know exactly where it is and what it's doing while I'm in there.

When I do throw spiders out, i have to leave the glass top down on the table for some time afterwards, just in case the spider is still hiding in there somewhere.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



The spider is keeping you safe from worse bugs. You should give it a drop of morning dew in a tiny mug and put her name on the lease!

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Perfectly Safe posted:

I think it's accurate in the sense that he means it - it's just not accurate for all possible interpretations of what he says. Characters reacting to event and circumstance are not the same as characters who are reflecting on whether they're doing the right thing.

that's being incredibly generous but okay

you would make a good lawyer!

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Sinten
Apr 12, 2008


Would just like to say that playing as a swole girl owns in this game, usually we're the targets of either mockery, scorn or fetishist gaze.

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