|
Arist posted:This doesn't matter. It just doesn't. The details of "how would the Fireflies make and distribute the cure" legitimately aren't important to the story, not just because they never get that far but also because it's beyond the scope of the story being told. Again, it's a fairly straightforward moral dilemma, and it's infuriating that people go so far to try to invalidate it because they don't know how to interpret media in a reasonable way. Plus, I think Abby's flashbacks reinforce that the Fireflies did have a decent shot at a vaccine and at least the doctors were reasonable people.
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 14:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 17:56 |
|
|
snoremac posted:Yeah. If there are shades of grey in the morality of Joel's choice, he's less interesting. The entire narrative momentum behind 2LOU's story is that there are shades of grey in all of the choices that everyone makes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 14:53
|
|
|
BeanpolePeckerwood posted:It actually is the point and it does matter, because it's an interactive medium where all kinds of things can be sought, heard, traversed, and inspected. Everything matters within the context of story, all the details which the devs painstakingly added to paint a broad and complex picture of a world and social tapestry [not entirely unlike our own] matter, regardless of how many times you energetically tell people in any of these threads that they don't. Both games are engaging in a variety of storytelling techniques through mechanical design, performance, and art direction that ultimately converge and funnel into more confined yet ultimately ambiguous conclusions. If certain things don't matter to you it's because you are omitting them from the record by choice. I'm gonna bow out here because this argument makes me want to walk into the ocean, but, like: First, "the point" was referring to MY point, and you don't get to decide what that was, I do. My point was exactly what I said it was. Second, you're dressing it up in a lot of obsfuscatory language here but you're not actually really saying anything meaningful beyond "things matter if they're in the story." Well, yeah, no poo poo. I'm saying these details aren't in the story and thus do not matter.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 14:55
|
|
|
Arist posted:I'm gonna bow out here because this argument makes me want to walk into the ocean 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 14:58
|
|
|
Something I really like about the last cutscene in this is when Ellie is talking to Joel and he says he would do it all over again. I like to think that him saying that solidified in Ellie the desire to eventually forgive him and have him back in her life. He knows that his decision caused them to stop talking for years and that he says he would do it again without hesitating helps her realise just how much he cares for her. I have no idea if that is true, but I like to think it is. That she was wavering on her decision and this pushed her along.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 15:09
|
|
|
It certainly feels like a coming up for air moment in 2LOU's story because they've kept the player from any sort of resolution for almost the entirety of the game's length.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 15:13
|
|
|
BeanpolePeckerwood posted:The entire narrative momentum behind 2LOU's story is that there are shades of grey in all of the choices that everyone makes. I say all this while still liking Joel and feeling a lot of sympathy for him. He's a tragic character. snoremac fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jul 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 15:14
|
|
|
snoremac posted:I'd like to know about the shades of grey behind the pedo cannibal's choices I mean, how else is the whole family gonna eat thursday night chili-mac?
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
VideoGames posted:Something I really like about the last cutscene in this is when Ellie is talking to Joel and he says he would do it all over again. I like to think that him saying that solidified in Ellie the desire to eventually forgive him and have him back in her life. As much as I think there are issues with how they set up the Fireflies and the practicality of things, I am glad 2 didn’t have Joel use that to try and convince Ellie, and instead went with a more basic answer where he didn’t try and find logical excuses to an emotional decision.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 15:31
|
|
|
TLOU2 at least made it pretty clear that regardless of the player’s opinion of the Fireflies’ competence, Joel believed they would have been able to pull it off, and so did Ellie. There’s something to be said about the difference in how the player feels about it and the characters. The ambiguity might extend to other characters in the world, but at least from Joel and Ellie’s perspective they thought the Fireflies would have actually made a cure. personally i think they had a snowball’s chance in hell but i agree with Arist in that it never really was something that Joel thought about or considered Dewgy fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jul 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
Anything's possible in this world. Tommy and his friends managed to get electricity going again for an entire town. All it takes is slowly making the right decisions. Cave in every corpse's head so you can be sure they're not zombies playing dead, remove the bodies, get holes in houses patched up, clean out the rubble, save whatever books you can find, eventually progress can be made. Also I don't know what Joel believes about the surgery, I assume he was convinced they could kill Ellie and his brain shut down on thought beyond that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 20:37
|
|
|
IMO I think it's fairly believable that all the characters believe Joel destroyed the last chance for a cure even if that isn't actually true. -The Fireflies were on the verge of falling apart already and Ellie was the last, desperate hope. Even if there's another doctor out there who could make a vaccine, things were already fragile enough that this was just the last straw. -Naturally, Abby and her friends would think the same way, plus because of who the surgeon was in Abby's case. -Joel believes it imo primarily because he needs it to be the truth. It happened, he made his choice, closing the book on it forever. It needs to be done with. -And Ellie believes it because no one tells her otherwise. Joel acts like it was the last chance and even when he realizes that he's lying the firefly logs paint it that way too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
RareAcumen posted:Anything's possible in this world. Tommy and his friends managed to get electricity going again for an entire town. All it takes is slowly making the right decisions. Cave in every corpse's head so you can be sure they're not zombies playing dead, remove the bodies, get holes in houses patched up, clean out the rubble, save whatever books you can find, eventually progress can be made. I think that's true for the 2nd game, but I think that it's a little disconnected from the world they presented in the 1st one. In the 1st game the QZ is so starved there's hour long lines for rat BBQ, Pittsburg community rob and murder anyone that comes around and still look like they're ready to murder each other over a can of beans, another community have resorted to cannabilism and still can't consistently get enough meat to sustain themselves (there's a note with WE HAVE TO DO BETTER written on it). Tommy (who seems to be doing the best out of everyone) describes his community as something like 15 families strong which translates to gently caress all people. The impression I got was that it was only a matter of time before people went extinct and everyone kind of knew it (they were the literal 'Last of Us'). Cure was the last chance to save the world and Joel didn't give a gently caress because there was no circumstance or stakes that would have made him okay with letting his replacement daughter die. 2nd game makes it a little more ambiguous because after the 5 years(?) following the first game Tommy's community is huge and trading coffee with travelling groups, it's burrito night at the stadium and farming is going good on cult island. I can totally believe that the military were fucks and useless at keeping a city alive and those other communities from the first game were in really tough times that year but I still think naughty dog were trying to present a different situation for the world in the 1st game than the one you see in the 2nd. I don't think the change in world state really effects the rational behind Joel's choice but it sure does make it easier for people to say "maybe the fireflies were wrong to say killing Ellie to get the cure out of her brain wasn't the last hope for humanity". The Neal! fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 01:52
|
|
|
The Neal! posted:I think that's true for the 2nd game, but I think that it's a little disconnected from the world they presented in the 1st one. In the 1st game the QZ is so starved there's hour long lines for rat BBQ, Pittsburg community rob and murder anyone that comes around and still look like they're ready to murder each other over a can of beans, another community have resorted to cannabilism and still can't consistently get enough meat to sustain themselves (there's a note with WE HAVE TO DO BETTER written on it). Tommy (who seems to be doing the best out of everyone) describes his community as something like 15 families strong which translates to gently caress all people. The impression I got was that it was only a matter of time before people went extinct and everyone kind of knew it (they were the literal 'Last of Us'). Oh right, I totally forgot about people being an obstacle in making a cure. I was just thinking infrastructure and getting another surgeon. Yeah, they're doomed unless the zombies mutate and make anti zombies that make zombies back into people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 03:35
|
|
|
Arist posted:This doesn't matter. It just doesn't. The details of "how would the Fireflies make and distribute the cure" legitimately aren't important to the story, not just because they never get that far but also because it's beyond the scope of the story being told. Again, it's a fairly straightforward moral dilemma, and it's infuriating that people go so far to try to invalidate it because they don't know how to interpret media in a reasonable way. There's multiple problems with this. This first is that you are misrepresenting the intent of people who doubt that the fireflies would have been capable of mass producing a cure. That whole thing sprung up in response to a significant amount of people finishing the game and going " Wow Joel doomed humanity to save Ellie" or "he turned into a monster" etc. Saying that Joel doomed humanity is just as speculative as saying the Fireflies couldn't have pulled it off. One is just as "headcannon" as the other, because the game never gives a solid answer, and we have no idea if he actually doomed humanity or not. That said, over the course of a 15+ hour game you will inevitably have opinions and feelings in regards to both Joel and the Fireflies, their actions and motivations. This is going to affect how you feel about what happens at the end of the game. To say the entire context surrounding everything that happens in the game "isn't important" is ridiculous. Which brings us to your point being ultimately that "It doesn't matter because Joel didn't know that" and you are right. From Joel's POV he very well might be dooming humanity. He doesn't care if he does, as long as he can get to Ellie, and I don't think that has ever been a point of contention. Like, I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. However a player feels about this is going to vary from person to person, but it seems like you don't think other people know this as well? That said, there is absolutely moral grey area surrounding his actions. His actions were in direct response to saving someone he loved after a massive betrayal by the Fireflies that involves murdering a kid. Whether or not it was the right or wrong thing to do is extremely debatable, and part of what makes the ending so good. And none of that has anything to do with "headcannon or fanfiction". That is based directly on events that occur shortly before the end of the game. You seem to have a hard time separating Joel's intent, from a separate aspect of the story, which is the player being able to peer in from the outside. For some reason that I can't comprehend, you have deemed the whole latter aspect of the game not worthy of discussion. The funny thing is that I think pretty much everyone agrees on Joel's intent. There is no grey area there, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim otherwise. But there is a ton of grey area in everything else about the situation. And we, as the players get to witness all of it go down from an outside perspective . The idea that grey area makes the ending "boring" is a complete  to me, because grey area is the reason people are still discussing, and arguing about the end of this game 7 years later.Edit: Arist posted:it's infuriating that people go so far to try to invalidate it because they don't know how to interpret media in a reasonable way. Also please just stop it with this stuff. You really don't need to point out how dumb you think everyone who disagrees is all of the time. It's really obnoxious. veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 04:49
|
|
|
As for the differences between how 1 and 2 present the state of the world of the importance of the vaccine - I think, putting the actual timescale aside for a second, in 1 the game really needs to flesh out how hosed everything is so they focus almost entirely on that to sell Joel's dilemma. In 2, that dilemma isn't the story anymore, Ellie's immunity is pretty much irrelevant, and it's a different story about a group of people that live in a world scarred by cataclysm. I can see how going just by one you would think that humanity is about to go extinct, but in 2 it seems like a new era is already in its nascent stages. Jackson is a completely functional community where people could live out a lifespan, going by what they show. It is precarious due to the threat of invading forces human or infected (although the latter seem pretty much under control), but has grown a lot in a few years, and there's nothing to say that it is the only one. There might be dozens of settlements like Jackson in the US alone, hundreds around the planet. So maybe the human population is reduced from 7 billion to like 500 million or something, with a few million scattered in organised enclaves, I don't know. There are still plenty of people around, just not heaving cities of them anymore. Life will go on despite the destruction, and 2 is more interested in dealing with the implications of that than 1 is. I think this might be why I like 2 so much more than 1. I'm playing 1 again now. I only thought it was okay back when it came out, and this time I care more because of 2, but it's much more simplistic and preoccupied with the post-apolypse genre. A cool direction for part 3 might be that the end of the world isn't actually the end of the world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 06:42
|
|
|
I guess I agree with that veni. You can sympathize with Joel's decision while finding it morally wrong in the abstract, which is where I've always been at. I've always seen the Fireflies' treatment of him as contrived, making them unpleasant in that moment in a way that's not meant to be representative of them but to spur Joel into action in a believable way. But taking them at face value here makes sense to me now if it can be done without diminishing the gravity of Joel's decision, which from his perspective (he understands he's potentially destroying a vaccine) I suppose it isn't diminished. There's definitely no getting around the fact that they don't wait for Ellie's consent to sacrifice herself. It would've been easy for the writers to add a catch that exonerated the Fireflies here like they must operate within the hour or the virus will mutate a delta variant within Ellie or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
I wonder how long it would take for Jackson to clear the zombies in their area since it's not like their population can ever go on an upward trend once they run out of cities and towns to shore up their numbers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 06:56
|
|
|
roomtone posted:As for the differences between how 1 and 2 present the state of the world of the importance of the vaccine - I think, putting the actual timescale aside for a second, in 1 the game really needs to flesh out how hosed everything is so they focus almost entirely on that to sell Joel's dilemma. In 2, that dilemma isn't the story anymore, Ellie's immunity is pretty much irrelevant, and it's a different story about a group of people that live in a world scarred by cataclysm. I don't think Joel had a dilemma. It was a pretty cut and dry "I am not going to let them kill her and anyone who get's in my way is DOA" scenario. It's not like he was the weighing pros and cons. I think there are all sort of ways to feel about what Joel does at the end of the game. That's kind of why I love the ending so much. And I find most of it interesting even when I disagree with it. The only take I truly can't stand is "Joel has become a monster" because I do not think that is what the game was going for at all, and it's completely at odds with how relatable his motivations are and ignores what the Fireflies did. And on that note... snoremac posted:I guess I agree with that veni. You can sympathize with Joel's decision while finding it morally wrong in the abstract, which is where I've always been at. I've always seen the Fireflies' treatment of him as contrived, making them unpleasant in that moment in a way that's not meant to be representative of them but to spur Joel into action in a believable way. But taking them at face value here makes sense to me now if it can be done without diminishing the gravity of Joel's decision, which from his perspective (he understands he's potentially destroying a vaccine) I suppose it isn't diminished. I'm not too far off from this, but my take is that what Joel did was wholly sympathetic and heinous at the same time. I think it's very easy to feel "I would have done the same thing" while knowing how much weight it carries. But it also happened in response to something else very heinous, and I think the Fireflies dug their own grave by going about it in the worst possible way. I've never seen it as contrived though. The whole game really focuses on how the Fireflies are at their wit's end. They aren't evil but they are extremely desperate and made some really poor decisions. Joel killing Marlene seems to be the thing that gets a lot of people. And I get it. We all like Marlene. But he shot her after she pulled a gun on him and then finished her off with "you'd just come after her" . Which was 100% correct. It wasn't the ridiculous spite move that some people make it out to be (not that you said that) A lot of the "Joel bad" takes just get me because it involves putting so much faith in the Fireflies. An organization who had wholly proved that no one should put any faith in them whatsoever. veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 07:37
|
|
|
roomtone posted:As for the differences between how 1 and 2 present the state of the world of the importance of the vaccine - I think, putting the actual timescale aside for a second, in 1 the game really needs to flesh out how hosed everything is so they focus almost entirely on that to sell Joel's dilemma. In 2, that dilemma isn't the story anymore, Ellie's immunity is pretty much irrelevant, and it's a different story about a group of people that live in a world scarred by cataclysm. Yeah, this is why I'm always yammering on about it not being the end of humanity but rather the end of civilization, I think it's an important distinction and an interesting read re: the narrative intent of the devs. Look, I know we all exist within a cultural context that is hard to imagine parting ways with, that feels immense and all-consuming and invincible and forever, but the very nature of climate fiction calls forth that little spectre in the back of our heads to remind us that humans once existed without civilization, that we were not always the apex godkings usurping and demolishing the natural lifecycle, and that many of our finest nurturing traits as a species were honed during a murky past that predates the sort of extractive hedonism of the anthropocene.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 09:01
|
|
|
veni veni veni posted:I don't think Joel had a dilemma. It was a pretty cut and dry "I am not going to let them kill her and anyone who get's in my way is DOA" scenario. It's not like he was the weighing pros and cons. You're right - poor wording. I meant the ethical dilemma for the player rather than Joel. He never even considered doing otherwise. BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Yeah, this is why I'm always yammering on about it not being the end of humanity but rather the end of civilization, I think it's an important distinction and an interesting read re: the narrative intent of the devs. Look, I know we all exist within a cultural context that is hard to imagine parting ways with, that feels immense and all-consuming and invincible and forever, but the very nature of climate fiction calls forth that little spectre in the back of our heads to remind us that humans once existed without civilization, that we were not always the apex godkings usurping and demolishing the natural lifecycle, and that many of our finest nurturing traits as a species were honed during a murky past that predates the sort of extractive hedonism of the anthropocene. I've been thinking lately about post-apocalyptic fiction in general. I've seen the phrase 'it is easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism' often enough to know this isn't remotely original, but I think it is clear that beyond the power fantasy of being totally free in a world without institutions, I think there's also an abandon and relief component to the appeal of this setting. The idea being that not only is our cultural existence suffocating and monotonous, but it's also so lopsided in terms of equality and excessive in consumption that having the problem being removed from us by force of disaster is enticing of itself. Almost feels deserved. People blow up their own lives to escape them all the time, this genre is just that on a civilization scale. It's not even worth untangling; just blow it the gently caress up and we'll start again. I don't think society actually has a death with but I think the problems we have are so entrenched that it's actually fun/relaxing to sit and imagine a world where most people were dead and the remainder had a blank slate on which to start all this poo poo over again. The violence and grimness of these settings is a kind of revenge on the world before you move on. I wonder what the progression of it will be, because like I mentioned I think you can see just from last of us 1 to 2 a progression from 'blow it up' to 'now what?' - but at least this series, they haven't gotten to a suggestion for the latter yet. BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Look, I know we all exist within a cultural context that is hard to imagine parting ways with, that feels immense it's getting easier as time goes on
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 10:00
|
|
|
roomtone posted:I've been thinking lately about post-apocalyptic fiction in general. I've seen the phrase 'it is easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism' often enough to know this isn't remotely original, but I think it is clear that beyond the power fantasy of being totally free in a world without institutions, I think there's also an abandon and relief component to the appeal of this setting. The idea being that not only is our cultural existence suffocating and monotonous, but it's also so lopsided in terms of equality and excessive in consumption that having the problem being removed from us by force of disaster is enticing of itself. Almost feels deserved. People blow up their own lives to escape them all the time, this genre is just that on a civilization scale. It's not even worth untangling; just blow it the gently caress up and we'll start again. Yeah, as far as our immediate future goes I'm a bit of a climate doomer, so climate fiction in all of its forms is almost a coping mechanism for me, something that helps me feel like I'm not completely crazy and that yes, this world is in fact completely out of whack. Humanity itself is so much more than the last 10, 000 years of organized extraction, conflict, and biosphere rape, and yeah, we've got some dark poo poo within us, too, but this whole geological era is like one huge physical and psychological trauma injury that we just can't get over. If you want to read a fiction book that speculates about the longform future of humanity post-climate change check out Dale Pendell's "The Great Bay"
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 17:56 |
|
|
I bought this on the week of release but decided to take a break late in day 1 of the Abby section. Anyway, just knocked out the rest 16 months later. Gameplay was pretty fun all in all, story had some issues though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2022 02:26
|
|
