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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Question to whoever from Naughty Dog is reading this thread, would you say this is better or worse than the execution videos

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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

It's not so much the surprise of the twist but rather the tension or mystery that precedes the twist imo.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

With that said if they're threatening spurious legal action I'm all for spiting their stupid bad game. Return FYAD to the forum index just so its title can once again be a spoiler

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

There are definitely things that are informative or fulfilling to engage in in spite of not being fun. "Contrived videogame scenario where you are forced to kill someone's dog every few minutes" does not, immediately, seem like one of those things to me.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

There's no direct payoff but reviewers are entirely dependent on the goodwill of games developers. Doubt the guy who strongly suggested that they shouldn't have made this game in his closing paragraph is getting advanced access to review ND's next title.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

It is okay for a game to be unpleasant. People fall over themselves to recommend LISA for example despite it being genuinely a depressing experience. Some folks will swear by Drakengard despite it being a game that hates you. In fact it got two sequels and two spinoffs all of which feature protagonists who could be classified as villains.

I am not saying TLOU 2 succeeds but "not fun" can be a good experience if done right.
Drakengard has evil protagonists and dark themes but it is for the most part not deliberately unpleasant to play. I think there's a major distinction there.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Honestly I'd prefer for the game not to be successful just so it isn't taken as a positive case study for grinding your employees to dust during the production of a game.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Hey guys, what if this game is actually good?
That would introduce a meaningful moral choice to the game, of whether it's acceptable to buy the game and financially support terrible working practices that are killing the industry in the long term

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

quote:

In an interview with GQ, director Neil Druckmann described feelings the studio was hoping to evoke in players, specifically tied to feelings of guilt or regret relating to the violent acts Ellie commits.

“I was like, ‘Oh, we can make the player feel that,’” he said. “We can make you experience this thirst for revenge. This thirst for retribution and having you actually, like, commit the acts of finding it and then showing you the other side to make you regret it. To make you feel dirty for everything you’ve done in the game, making you realise ‘I’m actually the villain of the story.’”
To me this seems like the biggest misstep the game is making. Having a game with brutal and unpleasant gameplay where you're aware of how bad what you're doing is all the time can work. Having a game where you think you're doing good and then are later exposed to the real consequences of your actions so that you feel regret can work. But TLOU2 is clearly trying to do both, which means you get flashback scenes to demonstrate how the actions you took that were already clearly framed as bad were, in fact, bad.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I don't think this is an Andromeda or Anthem situation, the game looks and plays OK and has a reasonable amount of content. It's just the writing isn't anywhere close to what the rapturous early reviews and developer interviews promised.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

To me having a group of insanely evil assholes who have to be slaughtered en-masse seems at odds with the 'revenge bad, consider the humanity of your enemies' theme. Like what if Joel's killer happened to be from one of the groups of irredeemable fuckers? Guess cross country revenge would've been good and cool then, it was just Ellie's bad luck that the killer was not a completely awful person?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I think 'is it OK to kill one person to save many people' and 'is it OK to kill a bunch of people to save one person you care about' are both famously contentious moral topics

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I think you could argue a reasonable number of gang related conflicts are a result of a series of reprisal killings

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

The title is clickbait but the actual video is more measured and I think it does a decent job of articulating why the characters actions don't make much sense. It contrasts the believable and well depicted scenes of grief with the absurd mass murder revenge quests the characters launch into.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

bobjr posted:

Ellie does resolve to only go after Abby, and ignoring gameplay her friend tend to be already dead or openly provoke her into killing them.
'Ignoring gameplay' is a pretty big caveat. In the first game you could make some argument that you're killing to survive, or save humanity, or save someone you care about from people who want to do them harm. These aren't necessarily good things to do, but there is at least some moral ambiguity to them and they come from a relatable place. Whereas killing hundreds of largely unrelated people in a selfish quest for revenge or torturing someone to death in front of their loved one is obviously and inarguably monstrous.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

He confirms Israel-Palestine was the catalyst inspiration for the story specifically seeing Israelis be lynched when he was young and being angry and then getting older and seeing the event from a different perspective. (at about 10:30)

punk rebel ecks posted:

#2 Scars is just plain evil. They are basically the Khmer Rouge. And the game makes it clear that Abby and others dislike them because they don't "stay on their island".
This seems pretty bad to me, especially with the upthread argument that the scars seem to be based on Muslims

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

There is room to criticise Joel but I think his motivations are far more justifiable than the personal desire for revenge that drives both TLoU2 protagonists.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

smoobles posted:

ahhh you're right the cult of child rapists who torture apostates by cutting out their intestines while they're still alive are the good guys, thank you Goon for pointing this out
They're definitely bad in the context of the game, but to me the game including a group of people who are so evil that war criming and mass murdering them is justified is in itself a political statement. Especially if you read it as part of the I/P metaphor.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Indecisive posted:

oh but joel doing it just cuz he feels like it is perfectly normal right? what happened to its ok because it's necessary to survive in the post apocalypse?
Do you not see a clear moral difference between doing something to survive or protect someone you love and doing something for revenge?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Fallen Hamprince posted:

The 'they kill to many henchmen' thing feels a lot like watching a musical and complaining about how it doesn't make sense that all these chimney sweeps can sing and dance like trained professionals. Plus in most cases you don't have to kill anyone; it's entirely possible to sneak through and that's probably the most story-consistent way to play the game considering Ellie isn't a space marine and couldn't plausibly take down whole squads of enemies over and over again.
I'd accept the "musical excuse" for the vast majority of games but a lot of people were trying to claim that TLoU2 was better than those other games and had something serious to say about the violence you inflicted (thus justifying how excessively graphic it is).

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

It's pretty clear to me that the reviewer meant there's a lack of beats where characters examine why they're still on a revenge rampage while it's in progress. The fact that the rampage ends just before it reaches its intended target doesn't change that.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 3, 2020

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Does playing with the dog that you already killed earlier in the game really qualify as a "moment of levity"

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I really liked the structure of Yakuza 0, both storylines were interesting and it was cool how they came together.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

The gameplay can be enjoyed as its own thing but plenty of people (even people who liked the game) have pointed out that it's completely at odds with the storyline that treats killing people as a serious line crossed rather than something you've done hundreds of times already.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

In general I have a lot more sympathy for stories about LGBT suffering if they explore actual difficulties people face or examine society's attitudes. As opposed to eg a story where the cult the writers made up wants to use a trans man as a breeder slave.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Nier: Automata is the first thing that springs to mind

e: Automata spoiler: It also fits the "Are there any other games where you play as someone who killed your previous protagonist" question someone asked a while back but I couldn't find a way to bring it up without spoiling the game

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Jul 20, 2020

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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

paper mario: the thousand-year door

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