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Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007
GW BRAINWORMS CREW OFFICIAL HYPE MAN

College Slice

Relevant Tangent posted:

Seems like a dumb take, you're letting the people who say things like purge the xenos in the emperor's name on twitter ruin letting little plastic and/or metal things fight to the death while drinking a brewski or soda with your buds. The vast majority of people I've met in the fandom don't let the unironic fascists play with them and the unironic fascists tend to be bad at the game so they're not winning tournaments with their 'completely canon SM chapter that uses the swastika' or whatever. I think it's fun to paint models, then fight with those models, and the people who are unironic fascists can be dealt with appropriately ostracized/punched depending on ability.

Generally speaking, it's not worth engaging with takes like the one you quoted. There are a lot of people out there desperate to tell you the game died X years ago and only rich Nazis play it now. Mostly these people are bitter weirdoes who drifted away from the game/fiction but cannot let go.

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Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Relevant Tangent posted:

Seems like a dumb take, you're letting the people who say things like purge the xenos in the emperor's name on twitter ruin letting little plastic and/or metal things fight to the death while drinking a brewski or soda with your buds. The vast majority of people I've met in the fandom don't let the unironic fascists play with them and the unironic fascists tend to be bad at the game so they're not winning tournaments with their 'completely canon SM chapter that uses the swastika' or whatever. I think it's fun to paint models, then fight with those models, and the people who are unironic fascists can be dealt with appropriately ostracized/punched depending on ability.

This is the right take, but keep in mind that some of the major online 40k personalities, and some of the companies that cater to the 40k hobby, have some really fashy tendencies. If you care enough to check you can go post in the tradgames subforum, there's basically a list of the major offenders but I don't know it well because I only dabble in the hobby. One example, though, is a company called GreenStuffWorld that sells modeling supplies and they got caught out selling fascist iconography and were really pissy about it when they got enough bad publicity to force them to get rid of the worst of it, and they may have reintroduced it anyway. It's really depressing that a hobby consisting of painting little plastic transhuman soldiers, critters straight out of the Alien franchise and Tolkienesque orks that fly about the galaxy with axes and machine guns requires vigilance to keep track of fascists if you don't want to give the wrong person money/retweets/views etc.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT PEWDIEPIE

(This red text bought on behalf of the Save Lowtax From Crippling Medical Debt Fund.)



people really want their politics to boil down to consumption choices, but this in turn is because they don't want to associate with fascists and brands crowd out all other signifiers until you're in deep and a libertarian who has never bathed is telling you about his imperial guard regiment painted with a not-a-swastika which represents "celtic pride" which is why an infantry unit dressed in future space ss uniforms would use it

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?

Filthy Hans posted:

This is the right take, but keep in mind that some of the major online 40k personalities, and some of the companies that cater to the 40k hobby, have some really fashy tendencies. If you care enough to check you can go post in the tradgames subforum, there's basically a list of the major offenders but I don't know it well because I only dabble in the hobby. One example, though, is a company called GreenStuffWorld that sells modeling supplies and they got caught out selling fascist iconography and were really pissy about it when they got enough bad publicity to force them to get rid of the worst of it, and they may have reintroduced it anyway. It's really depressing that a hobby consisting of painting little plastic transhuman soldiers, critters straight out of the Alien franchise and Tolkienesque orks that fly about the galaxy with axes and machine guns requires vigilance to keep track of fascists if you don't want to give the wrong person money/retweets/views etc.

No this is the wrong take. I've been in this hobby for nearly 30 years, including working for GW in both an office and a retail level and while I've seen a few people who are edgelords and weirdo nerds, i've never seen anyone involved in the hobby that was an out and out fascist. It does exist, but it is a very small minority and it gets laughed at and ostracized from the community. The fact this requires you to interact with people directly, means there's a filter that other nerd hobbies lack.

And you can't use some 3rd party guy online that is probably one person in their basement who's a chud to paint an entire community as fash. Plus you need to vet everyone online. nothing like watching some youtuber for years and then suddenly hear them make some offhanded chud remark.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007
GW BRAINWORMS CREW OFFICIAL HYPE MAN

College Slice

Yeah, TM has the right of it. "the hobby is just fash etc etc" is, like I said, an angle usually taken by people with an axe to grind. Same as the more specific "GW is dying" "the models are bad now", and "no one can afford to buy in".

For reference, GW have been breaking records for profit in recent years (and sharing them with staff). They have a line of fiction catering to actual children. And they lead the market in not pushing creepy tits-out exploitative representations of women in their product.
The people who actually write for GW are loving baffled by online posters. rightwing or otherwise, who can't understand that it's satire. We know from a first-hand goon account that their marketing people just flat out laughed a guy out of the room for suggesting they reach out to one of the right wing youtube channels during an interview.

There are fash and creeps in the wargaming/miniature painting hobby, but they have always been here. I'd argue that historicals are way more prone to loving a Hitler. The important thing is that they are not in any way a majority, or in a position of actual influence. and they are most definitely not welcome.

Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 14:36 on May 18, 2020

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015



Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

They have a line of fiction catering to actual children.
...
The people who actually write for GW are loving baffled by online posters. rightwing or otherwise, who can't understand that it's satire.

tbh this was partly why i was against warhammer babies when they first announced it

some, but certainly not all, angsty teens have enough trouble seeing the satire for what it is because they're at a point in their lives where they're just gonna think whoa, cool space marines! and miss the point even tho there's a blazing spotlight burning a hole through the awful dystopia they live in, i have no idea how they plan on effectively conveying that point to little kids and i personally think that marketing at actual children is a bad move - i mean, it's not impossible but i see room for a lot of error and i don't like it

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?

There are fash star trek fans, so literally everything has fash fans. I bet there are hard cure Nazi knitting circles.

Guyver
Dec 5, 2006



Isn't the backstory for Star Trek "poo poo got hosed then socialist utopia happened"

What are they unironic cardassian fans?

frogge
Apr 7, 2006




I've seen "Dukat did nothing wrong" posted unironically so yes.

JackMann
Aug 11, 2010

Secure. Contain. Protect.


Fallen Rib

It's true that almost every fandom has at least some fash lurking in it, I do think there's a lot more in 40K for your average fash to latch onto.

Now, to be clear, 40K was intended at its start to be satire by way of 2000 AD. A lot of the fascist tendencies in the Imperium were intended to be deliberately and obviously self-defeating. The crackdowns and oppression lead directly to more chaos cults, their willingness to throw away their own men costs them more victories than its grants, and the religious dogma keeps them from advancing their technology.

However, this has led to a problem over the years where writers have often lost the thread. Part of this is that it's hard to tell a story with absolutely no good guys. The Imperium are the protagonists of the setting, and most books are written from their perspective. It's natural to want to have your viewpoint character, well, at least sympathetic. There are some good ways you can still do this without excusing the faction (Ciaphas Cain's refusal to follow standard protocol springs to mind), but a lot of writers have defaulted to Hard Men Making Hard Choices. Suddenly, the hard crackdowns and oppression are the only thing keeping the chaos cults from spreading. Only by throwing waves of Guardsmen at the enemy can victory be assured. All attempts to create new technology lead to heresy and ruin.

To Games Workshop's credit, they've recognized this in recent years and a lot of the fiction has been focused on how the Imperium's fascist tendencies actually make it more susceptible to threats. Bringing in Roboute Guilliman has helped by bringing in an outside set of eyes who can look at it and say "What the hell are you doing? Don't you see how this is not helping? Don't you understand that you're the reason Chaos has come so close to destroying us?"

The biggest issue it still has, and this is a problem with Grimdark settings in general, is that it rarely presents any better alternatives. That's part of any dark setting; the idea that everything is terrible and there's no real hope. However, this makes it easy for the fascist player to still say, "Well, maybe it sucks, but the other factions are just as bad or worse! The eldar are dying out, the tau use mind control, and the other xenos just want to kill everyone!" If you look deep enough in the lore, you've got the Interex, who were a non-fascist, fairly successful human civilization that was more successful in fighting chaos and got along with non-human civilizations (and were wiped out by the Imperium, naturally).

Still, overall I would say that the 40K community is becoming less fash-friendly. There are still a lot of reactionary fuckwits in the fandom, but there are more people calling them out, and the out-and-out fascists are no longer being welcomed in most gamestores (outside of the ones owned by fash). It's still not always great, and it's important to be calling out the assholes trying to use hobby spaces for recruiting, but the majority of the fans these days are no worse than any other group of nerds.

Guyver posted:

Isn't the backstory for Star Trek "poo poo got hosed then socialist utopia happened"

What are they unironic cardassian fans?

A lot of it comes from the fact that Star Trek was for many years synonymous with science fiction. It was difficult to be a sci-fi nerd and not be a Star Trek fan. Conservative types would try to reinterpret it through their own lens to try and either argue that it wasn't really socialism somehow, or else try to argue that it doesn't actually work and of course the Federation would quickly turn to a more conservative, capitalist form of government aaannnyyy time now, guys, really. Star Fleet Battles, which turned Star Trek into a conservative mil sci-fi wargame is a pretty cogent example of this.

JackMann fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 18, 2020

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Relevant Tangent posted:

Seems like a dumb take, you're letting the people who say things like purge the xenos in the emperor's name on twitter ruin letting little plastic and/or metal things fight to the death while drinking a brewski or soda with your buds.

yeah it's not twitter i'm talking about

if you haven't had the same problem, more power to you.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






The Orks are the only faction that gets the 41st millennium

Politics are for losers, smash poo poo every day

Senator Drinksalot
Apr 30, 2013


Orks are the most fun part of both Warhammer settings

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Yeah, TM has the right of it. "the hobby is just fash etc etc" is, like I said, an angle usually taken by people with an axe to grind. Same as the more specific "GW is dying" "the models are bad now", and "no one can afford to buy in".

.

what the gently caress

most of the newer plastics rule imo apart from some really cheesy dynamic posing at times

some of the primaris are too much of a departure for some players but that doesn't mean the models aren't great from a technical perspective

Senator Drinksalot posted:

Orks are the most fun part of both Warhammer settings

absolutely

the new rules even let you kamikaze the enemy with your fliers

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007
GW BRAINWORMS CREW OFFICIAL HYPE MAN

College Slice

Filthy Hans posted:

what the gently caress

most of the newer plastics rule imo apart from some really cheesy dynamic posing at times

The complaints of Toxic Fans seldom intersect with reality.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Some Elf posted:

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude."

Senator Drinksalot posted:

Orks are the most fun part of both Warhammer settings

checks out, Orks are the bezt

Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 05:05 on May 19, 2020

Senator Drinksalot
Apr 30, 2013


I especially like how they think the Imperium actually likes them because they keep building big poo poo for them to come knock down

Tias
May 25, 2008

Deyr fe,
deyja fraendr,
deyr sjalfr it sama,
ek veit einn,
at aldrei deyr:
domr um daudan hvern.


Still Dismal posted:

Was warhammer ever that ironic though? I mean yeah the imperium are over the top fascist theocrats, but it's also a universe where hell exists and is real and is constantly trying to invade, so I don't know if it was ever meant as that much of a parody.

This thread made me look up warhammer poo poo for the first time in forever, and man, what happened to the story-line? Robute Guilliman is back, and there are now super-space marines who have mechs?

Some of the new models do look cool as hell though.

I haven't followed the newest developments, but it often poked heavy fun at itself, yes.

Comstar
Apr 20, 2007

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Princess Celestia


I'm still waiting for Female Imperial Guardsmen beyond, I think, 4 figures in 40 years?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Tias posted:

I haven't followed the newest developments, but it often poked heavy fun at itself, yes.

It really depends. The core books and codices went through a long period of scrubbing any trace of humor, irony, or self-mockery, in both "fluff" text and actual rules. Some good examples are how the Machine Spirit goes from a mockery of Imperial ignorance to an actual thing that demonstrably exists and even makes some units more effective in the game proper, or how "Red onez go faster" goes from a superstition to an actual game effect explained as a psychic power driven by collective Ork psychic power. There's also a real shift around the Imperial Guard, where they go from tragic or tragicomic to just straight unironic oorah "first and last line of defense" heroic sacrifice stuff around 4th-5th edition and the increasing emphasis on Cadia. (It's interesting how the online community resists this change! Flashlight memes last a lot longer than the tragicomedy in the IG codices.)

Parallel to that you also have Rogue Trader (the RPG, not the original 40K book) and the licensed Black Library fiction taking a more askew look at things. A lot of this is because the authors who liked the tragicomedy spend less time writing game books and more time writing proper books! But even Rogue Trader eventually gives way to a more popular Space Marine spin-off (which is sadly lacking in irony) before rights issues finally torpedo the entire line.

Bucnasti
Aug 14, 2012

Listen to him, men. He's just crazy enough to do it!


Cease to Hope posted:

It really depends. The core books and codices went through a long period of scrubbing any trace of humor, irony, or self-mockery, in both "fluff" text and actual rules. Some good examples are how the Machine Spirit goes from a mockery of Imperial ignorance to an actual thing that demonstrably exists and even makes some units more effective in the game proper, or how "Red onez go faster" goes from a superstition to an actual game effect explained as a psychic power driven by collective Ork psychic power. There's also a real shift around the Imperial Guard, where they go from tragic or tragicomic to just straight unironic oorah "first and last line of defense" heroic sacrifice stuff around 4th-5th edition and the increasing emphasis on Cadia. (It's interesting how the online community resists this change! Flashlight memes last a lot longer than the tragicomedy in the IG codices.)


Y’all need to be reading the Regimental Standard.

https://regimental-standard.com/

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant



Senator Drinksalot posted:

I especially like how they think the Imperium actually likes them because they keep building big poo poo for them to come knock down

If the Imperium spent five minutes understanding orks they could be unreliable allies but nope, purge all xenos all the time.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015



Cease to Hope posted:

Parallel to that you also have Rogue Trader (the RPG, not the original 40K book) and the licensed Black Library fiction taking a more askew look at things. A lot of this is because the authors who liked the tragicomedy spend less time writing game books and more time writing proper books!

on the one hand, the rogue trader rpg lets you play as the 1% in space (really, the 0.00000000000001%) so you're enjoying the setting as much as it can be enjoyed because you're astronomically wealthy and all manner of decadence is yours but the satire is 100% there

you're in a ship filled with workers slowly mutating from from reactor leaks and unsafe working conditions, you have actual slaves moving around ordnance, every time your ship takes damage thousands of plebs die because you're hilariously overcrowded, you can 'upgrade' your crew quarters to inhumane slave pens which take up very little space and power giving you more room for your space mansion, you can have discipline masters running around cracking heads of naysayers, you can have gladiatorial pens where you make your crew members fight to the death for your entertainment, etc, etc, etc

the fellas i know who played this had rogue trader be their first 40k experience and for them the comedic levels of misery and dystopia that permeated the rpg was shocking to them, they tried to play as nice guys trying to make a living in awful setting but even that was hard because your profit margins were always on the line

Relevant Tangent
Nov 18, 2016

Tangentially Relevant



The most profitable thing to do in rogue trader is instantly mashing the betray button whenever the opportunity arises. Doesn't matter what you're betraying; society, sanity, or existence itself just slam that button as hard as you can.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Rogue Trader is massively improved by playing as a crew of rowdy Ork Space Piratez instead

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Comstar posted:

I'm still waiting for Female Imperial Guardsmen beyond, I think, 4 figures in 40 years?

That would be nice, as would female space marines that aren't battle nuns.

I'm one of those people who's attracted to the grimdarkness of the setting. It's more that I like the setting's romanticized, no-one-knows-what-actually-happened past (setting aside the generally poor later writing that has filled in some of these gaps), its tragic heroes, and central conflict that is best summarized by a fresco painting. Characters that dehumanize themselves in different ways for various reasons or live in shades of gray are just more interesting. I also like that it can live alongside the satire and comedy aspects without much conflict. Like whenever it gets too much you can hit the note of orks or guardsmen as Black Adder characters.

JackMann posted:

Still, overall I would say that the 40K community is becoming less fash-friendly. There are still a lot of reactionary fuckwits in the fandom, but there are more people calling them out, and the out-and-out fascists are no longer being welcomed in most gamestores (outside of the ones owned by fash). It's still not always great, and it's important to be calling out the assholes trying to use hobby spaces for recruiting, but the majority of the fans these days are no worse than any other group of nerds.

Donald Trump has woken up a lot of people to the prevalence of fash elements in various fandoms and provoked a backlash against it. Suddenly it went from being a theoretical concern that could be avoided if you didn't go to certain websites to On Your Doorstep.

hard counter posted:

the fellas i know who played this had rogue trader be their first 40k experience and for them the comedic levels of misery and dystopia that permeated the rpg was shocking to them, they tried to play as nice guys trying to make a living in awful setting but even that was hard because your profit margins were always on the line

I vaguely recall a story retold in tradgames about a Rogue Trader player group that tried to play it like Star Trek and didn't put any armaments on their ship.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.


Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



are they still not bringing Squats back?

sorry I don't have more up to date 40k material

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Cerv posted:

are they still not bringing Squats back?

sorry I don't have more up to date 40k material

when was the last time squats had an army list? the insert in second edition?

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.

Age of Sigmar has squats.

CarpenterWalrus
Mar 30, 2010


lol if you're not currently playing or running a Dark Heresy 1E campaign right now

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Cerv posted:

are they still not bringing Squats back?

sorry I don't have more up to date 40k material

Squats never existed and we have always been at war with Eurasia

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




CarpenterWalrus posted:

lol if you're not currently playing or running a Dark Heresy 1E campaign right now

I'm a 2E game right now, playing a Mechanicus Investigator.

Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013


This thread makes me really happy I have never been exposed to anything Warhammer.

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003




Someone actually made this. In Italy.

I would really like to know the full story behind Donald the Despoiler one day.

JackMann
Aug 11, 2010

Secure. Contain. Protect.


Fallen Rib

Cerv posted:

are they still not bringing Squats back?

sorry I don't have more up to date 40k material

No indication that squats are going to exist as an army ever again, but they made a couple of Forge World squat characters for the new Necromunda.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



Cease to Hope posted:

when was the last time squats had an army list? the insert in second edition?

yeah I'm 99% sure that was it.
but the 2nd ed box was when I first got into Warhammer so spent a few years waiting for a proper codex before giving up the hobby lol

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?

Straight from Jes Goodwin, everyone was embarrassed by the squats, the models looked silly and they had no idea how to translate dwarfs into 40k without said sillyness with their current tech.

I mean if you want to play squats, Khardon Overlords are basically them, just with like an airship theme.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


The fluff just moved away from Squats too. Their relationship with the Imperium was much like the WHFB Dwarfs' relationship with the Empire. They were allies who helped the Imperium with technology. As technological stagnation and xenophobia became bigger and bigger parts of the Imperium's lore, their relationship with the Squats made less and less sense.

Squats were also always more viable and better supported in the Epic game, where they got giant gun trains and armored zeppelins. But those kinds of units couldn't really be reproduced for 40K's 28mm scale in the early 90's. So 40K Squats were just little round dudes who used Imperial ground vehicles and some bikes. They were essentially a slightly tougher but less varied Imperial Guard.

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Feldegast42
Oct 29, 2011



A pity, because some of the concept art were basically Hells Angels dorfs in space and that would have been sweet

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