|
Mordja posted:And yet no Total Warhammer, weird. Just this moment read about a digital/physical release special edition: savage edition
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2020 19:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 04:18 |
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:I didn't play BFG but those sorts of rules in wargames often suck hard unless you're doing a specific narrative matchup and have a large collection. If you're playing at a game store or tournament where you've got a set list for the day/event, then you necessarily must tailor for all comers and a list that can play radically different from anyone else has an obvious huge advantage. And if you're new or don't have money to drop then those factions can even make pure friendly games suck because you just don't have the models to counter their shenanigans. Necrons were better on paper however they paid for their better stats and abilities with increased costs and a way harsher victory points table. The problem with them is that many people only played standard search and destroy battles instead of scenarios with victory points and campaigns, where they were far more balanced if I recall correctly. The point about gunlines in Fantasy was kinda funny, I don't know how they fared in 8th edition, but in 6th and 7th edition, playing a gunline in a tournament was a great way to not win and also making three other people angry at you for messing up their chances. It was very hard to get massacred but it was also very hard to get a decisive win, so instead you got a lot of draws and minor defeats/victories, which was not the point of tournament play.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2020 19:05
|
|
|
RickRogers posted:Just this moment read about a digital/physical release special edition: savage edition Yeah, I saw that. Kind of weird in that it's just the first game and two of its DLCs when it's been so superseded by TWW2, but I guess stuff like this is just for the collectors.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:If you built knowing you were fighting a gunline, you won. If you had an all-comers list, then basically the entire game is decided by how well the gunline player rolls. This is the skew list experience and many of GW's games have been plagued with it. I'm given to understand static gunlines in particular are why both 40K and AOS largely shifted to objective-based, table-control play.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2020 22:42
|
|
|
RickRogers posted:I'm sure most of us have experienced this before, like when the person introducing me to mtg at a games club just used a pure mill deck in my first game and laughed the whole time because I could do literally nothing to counter. Then the second game they decided to go easy on me and just use their best competitive deck to teach me how to properly loose and not learn anything. Also taught me that he was a dick head and I should just stop playing and enjoy the card art. When I used to intro people to magic I had five mediocre but decently balanced against each other decks that I'd let people choose from to play against me using one of the remaining four and then show a couple of sideboard cards for their deck afterwards and be like "your deck would be way more awesome if you had this" and the number of people who told me a variation of your story was staggering because they thought I was going to rig the decks and wreck them like the last person who tried to get them into it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
Mordja posted:Yeah, I saw that. Kind of weird in that it's just the first game and two of its DLCs when it's been so superseded by TWW2, but I guess stuff like this is just for the collectors. It's not even the first physical release of TWW in this style, either. It's kinda baffling.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2020 02:46
|
|
|
Barudak posted:When I used to intro people to magic I had five mediocre but decently balanced against each other decks that I'd let people choose from to play against me using one of the remaining four and then show a couple of sideboard cards for their deck afterwards and be like "your deck would be way more awesome if you had this" and the number of people who told me a variation of your story was staggering because they thought I was going to rig the decks and wreck them like the last person who tried to get them into it. I think drafts are the best way to introduce people to magic. I played a lot in college and never bought a single card. Most of the group I played with were in the same boat. With drafts it goes from a niche nerd game you have to prepare for to a fun card game you can casually play over a couple of hours. Using preset decks has to get really repetitive after a few games too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2020 03:20
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:that and by the time the emperor is taking over Christianity is barely really remembered outside vague stories and some histories. i doubt any of the Abrahamic faiths survived to that point. Generally, I do appreciate that the setting's distant past is still the far future for us. At least in that regard the setting doesn't fall victim to the usual "sci-fi/fantasy authors do not understand numbers" issue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2020 13:49
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:IIRC, there have been references to history from our time, down to specific people, even if the precise context and names aren't always all that accurate. For the Abrahamic faiths I'd assume their history would be something like "the rebel Jisa overthrew the Rhomaion Empire using a variety of biological weaponry and crowned himself Baesilus Baesilōn of pre-Atomic Afro-Eurasia in the ancient city of Babylon." Maybe Christianity and Islam would be cast as a schism within a single faith, since it's not unusual for the present to color our interpretations of the past and the Imperium is basically founded on religious schism. yeah. like 40k society is still super advanced compared to us. its just used to be alot more so until everything went to hell because of various reasons. its also as a history nerd. history as a actual acadmic application/science is maybe been a thing since the enlightenment at least in the western concept of academic history/schooling. long before that it was always mixed with myths and legends and allegory. though you have plenty of pretty good histories from the islamic golden age and the various dynasties in china/asia/india. but even now, we only know so much history from certain times/cultures periods/societies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2020 23:39
|
|
|
That and pretty much every source of information and technology in the Imperium has explicitly been turbofucked by demons from hell several times over.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 07:05
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:IIRC, there have been references to history from our time, down to specific people, even if the precise context and names aren't always all that accurate. For the Abrahamic faiths I'd assume their history would be something like "the rebel Jisa overthrew the Rhomaion Empire using a variety of biological weaponry and crowned himself Baesilus Baesilōn of pre-Atomic Afro-Eurasia in the ancient city of Babylon." Maybe Christianity and Islam would be cast as a schism within a single faith, since it's not unusual for the present to color our interpretations of the past and the Imperium is basically founded on religious schism. Dan Abnett's books make allusions to Christianity; there is a vaguely Catholic religion called Cruxianism that existed around the time the Emperor was starting to do his thing on Terra circa 30k, and a planet called 'Sancour' (Sacré Cœur) that is explicitly described to have been named and settled by 'proto-Cruxians'. So something recognizable as descending from Christianity existed at least as late as the beginning of the Great Crusade. re. Judaism, the Emperor would have banned any surviving form of Judaism as a religion but wouldn't have cared at all about secular Jewish culture or ethnicity. Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. like 40k society is still super advanced compared to us. its just used to be alot more so until everything went to hell because of various reasons. its also as a history nerd. history as a actual acadmic application/science is maybe been a thing since the enlightenment at least in the western concept of academic history/schooling. long before that it was always mixed with myths and legends and allegory. though you have plenty of pretty good histories from the islamic golden age and the various dynasties in china/asia/india. but even now, we only know so much history from certain times/cultures periods/societies. The Imperial Standard posted:Kappa-Nu AX77446: Greetings, Guardsmen. While many of you will never know the joys of replacing one’s body with an invulnerable augmetic shell, some of you may get to experience the next best thing – serving worshipfully in the belly of one of the Omnissiah’s war machines. For your edification, we have recovered records of three popular vehicles preceding the modern day Leman Russ, plucked from Terra’s history:
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 07:32
|
|
|
Fallen Hamprince posted:Dan Abnett's books make allusions to Christianity; there is a vaguely Catholic religion called Cruxianism that existed around the time the Emperor was starting to do his thing on Terra circa 30k, and a planet called 'Sancour' (Sacré Cœur) that is explicitly described to have been named and settled by 'proto-Cruxians'. So something recognizable as descending from Christianity existed at least as late as the beginning of the Great Crusade.  Anyway, based on the Imperial iconography, Cruxianism would've been widespread on the worlds where the Imperial Cult was formalized in a recent enough past that they could just lift iconography and style wholesale. Though that thought just makes me want to see versions of 40K where instead of gothic cathedrals and Catholicism, the aesthetic is Angkor Wat and Hinduism, or a similar styleset of another region pushed to its limits.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 08:38
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Cruxianism? Sounds like Christianity minus Christ. I agree, but I would imagine these days that runs the risk of/being accused of, cultural appropriation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 11:37
|
|
|
RickRogers posted:I agree, but I would imagine these days that runs the risk of/being accused of, cultural appropriation. you've seen lizardmen/seraphon, right? and tomb kings? and necrons? i dunno. i don't think fears of being accused of cultural appropriation drive GW so much as a generally conservative, navel-gazing artistic direction. even their big new departures are just mining the books from the 80s and 90s for underdeveloped ideas, often as not. why take a risk on doing something new with the imperium, when people will eat up marines but big or zoats or bringing back exodites or something?
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 11:44
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:or zoats or bringing back exodites or something? tbh Zoats and Exodites are interesting ideas that were thrown aside in the "everything is GRIM and SERIOUS" era
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 11:54
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:you've seen lizardmen/seraphon, right? and tomb kings? and necrons? Yes of course, that's why I wrote 'these days', and I was referring more to religious iconography. Personally I imagine their art direction is driven more by business decisions, investors (sell more models!) and so on, rather than creative laziness. I am 100 percent sure that as soon as an artist starts fiddling with religious institutions other than Catholicism in their style (these days) then they would get a letter from top telling them to stop that poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 11:58
|
|
|
Ancient civilisations are seen as a different thing with cultural appropriation, it's not like there's a lot of modern people with clout who identify with Pharaonic Egyptian aesthetics, and not much for Mesoamericans, though that might be changing. Mind you, for all we know the average reaction to descendants of Aztecs and Mayans seeing their cultural heritage portrayed in a wargame as plastic lizard people riding dinosaurs is 'loving sweet!' Though I may be biased.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 12:13
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:tbh Zoats and Exodites are interesting ideas that were thrown aside in the "everything is GRIM and SERIOUS" era It wasn't really about being GRIM and SERIOUS so much as dealing with the fact that most army lists only had models for about 60% of their line, and usually only one (affordable!) plastic unit kit. Take Exodites, for example, which never had any model at all, and were cut from the army list entirely in 40K's third edition, in the army lists in the 3e rulebook. Even after cutting all of the Harlequins and Exodites, a good chunk of the Eldar list still didn't have any models at all, or only had expensive metal models. The only plastic kits, aside from vehicles/jetbikes, were monopose plastic Guardians armed with lasguns, despite the fact that every Eldar player wanted at least 20 guardians with shuriken catapults or Dire Avengers. And people were really excited about Eldar back then, since Dark Eldar were included in the main box and the (all-but-unchanged-to-this-day!) Falcon gravtank model had just come out. (It blows my mind how much of the current Eldar line dates back to the 90s, and how much of it really holds up.) It felt good to have new things announced for your faction back then because they were usually plastic models that were cheaper than the models in blisters, then sold 3-5 to a pack. (Later cut to 2-4 to a pack, then down to 1-2.) You had rich boy armies, where you needed a lot of models and/or those models were only available in metal, or affordable armies, where key units were all plastic kits. By third edition, the affordable armies were also better-looking and easier to customize, since they were multi-part plastic kits rather than difficult-to-assemble or mono-pose metal casts. So, yeah, it would've been nice to get Exodites, but people really wanted plastic Guardians or plastic Dire Avengers or any plastic aspect warriors since half of them were a pain to assemble and liked to fall over a lot or Shining Spears or Dreadnaughts (now Wraithlords) that had all their weapon options included or a dozen other things. People wondered what would happen to Harlequins or Exodites (or Squats or Arbites or Genestealer Cult, some other notable groups removed in 3e) but mostly nobody could afford those all-metal armies before they were discontinued anyhow. Zoats aren't quite like Exodites. While most of the stuff that was "squatted" was ditched in 3e, Zoats were already gone in 2e. The Tyranid army list has only gotten three or four genuinely new units that weren't on their list in Codex Tyranids for 40K 2e or the Hive War book for Epic 2e, back in 1995. (3e was 1998 onward.) I wanna say it's just Tyrant Guard, Raveners, Tyrannofexes, and variations on existing kits, but I feel like I'm forgetting something important. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Aug 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 12:35
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Ancient civilisations are seen as a different thing with cultural appropriation, it's not like there's a lot of modern people with clout who identify with Pharaonic Egyptian aesthetics, and not much for Mesoamericans, though that might be changing. Mind you, for all we know the average reaction to descendants of Aztecs and Mayans seeing their cultural heritage portrayed in a wargame as plastic lizard people riding dinosaurs is 'loving sweet!' Though I may be biased. Yup, but modern religion....ooooh. Better not. RickRogers fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Aug 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 13:00
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Mind you, for all we know the average reaction to descendants of Aztecs and Mayans seeing their cultural heritage portrayed in a wargame as plastic lizard people riding dinosaurs is 'loving sweet!' Though I may be biased. This is where you run into problems with cultural appropriation, when you guess at what people might think rather than asking them or involving them directly in the creation. The answer, like always, is less that GW is worried about cultural appropriation and more that it's a mostly white British company making toys and games for a chiefly white British audience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 13:07
|
|
|
I think cultural appropriation was the wrong term, I meant more 'religious appropriation', like giant mosques in space
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 13:23
|
|
|
RickRogers posted:I think cultural appropriation was the wrong term, I meant more 'religious appropriation', like giant mosques in space It's the same thing, in practice. A mosque is just a building. The building you picture when you picture a mosque, with minarets and a dome, is a product of a particular culture, just like cathedrals with arches and stained glass and spires. You can't really separate religion from culture; people just tend to be a bit more irritable about insensitive takes on sacred cultural practices than more prosaic ones.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 13:54
|
|
|
The Imperium and its religion are extremely derivative of western civilization and lift poo poo wholesale from christianity so it'd be extremely weird to see them using like, hindu iconography. Like, the imperial cult is very unsubtly a pop culture version of medieval/early modern catholicism. Grimdark space hinduism would need different sorts of fanatics. e: well you could definitely have planets using a hindu-ized version of Emperor worship in 40k but the "stock" version is hella catholic Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Aug 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 14:50
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Grimdark space hinduism would need different sorts of fanatics. Lord of Light is a pretty good book. Bonus points for the only Christian in the book being literally a necromancer Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Aug 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 15:07
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Imperium and its religion are extremely derivative of western civilization and lift poo poo wholesale from christianity so it'd be extremely weird to see them using like, hindu iconography. Like, the imperial cult is very unsubtly a pop culture version of medieval/early modern catholicism. Grimdark space hinduism would need different sorts of fanatics. Seconding that if you haven't read Lord of Light, you should really do that thing. I assumed a lot of the early profile-only units or things like Exodites were functions of the GW office staff having free access to all the conversion bits they could ever want, then someone taking the idea and running with it. Throw some Dire Avenger and Scout parts on a High Elf dragon rider, instant Exodite, make your own, kids.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 15:44
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:It's the same thing, in practice. A mosque is just a building. The building you picture when you picture a mosque, with minarets and a dome, is a product of a particular culture, just like cathedrals with arches and stained glass and spires. You can't really separate religion from culture; people just tend to be a bit more irritable about insensitive takes on sacred cultural practices than more prosaic ones. I half agree, in practice yeah sometimes but in principle each religion is it's own global club and likes different styles to its holy buildings that stay the same wherever they get built. Local influence is there though. But the terminology associated with religion is the thing that be problematic I imagine. I think after the Imperium and their space Jesus cathedrals, the Tau come closest to what was meant. Like a combination, 'budhist-shinto-dauist' look and philosophy, but in space. Then one could try it with Judaism...and who knows.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 17:18
|
|
|
The Tau have their own thing going on culturally, being an Eastern mishmash that's arguably a mix of Hindu castes and vaguely Chinese Communist collectivism, with possibly unintentional irony that their cultural position resembles the British Empire and their battlefield doctrine is most comparable to modern first world militaries with emphasis on superior firepower, combined arms and battlefield intelligence. You could do an Islamic imperialist aesthetic, but for reasons that should be obvious that'd be problematic in its own way... though reminded that the Tallarns are basically Arab-flavoured Imperial Guard, and possible precedent for Islam-flavoured Imperial factions. Especially given how much the setting rips off Dune.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
I liked the Exodites. I even made some lizard rider models for them once upon a time. Sad to hear they got Squatted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 17:31
|
|
|
I don't think exodites have ever been decanonized, there's still references to them here and there. I thought they were just a theoretical excuse to bring in fantasy warhammer elves like feral orks are. They wouldn't be the only group that sounds interesting but are doomed to never get any official support. There's a lot of stuff like that. Megarachnids sound cool. Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Imperium and its religion are extremely derivative of western civilization and lift poo poo wholesale from christianity so it'd be extremely weird to see them using like, hindu iconography. Like, the imperial cult is very unsubtly a pop culture version of medieval/early modern catholicism. Grimdark space hinduism would need different sorts of fanatics. What about if they borrow from Orthodox christianity? That's a lot more colorful and even have their own minarets and onion towers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 18:19
|
|
|
One of the perpetuals in the hh novels is explicitly said to be the last member of the Cathric faith.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 19:32
|
|
|
I reckon a style based on Hinduism could be fun to experiment with in the setting. Great span of history and architecture, lots of different subcultures. There are a relatively large number Hindus in the UK, so it's not like they couldn't find some to develop a concept. Eldar do have some elements of Hinduism what with avatars and all the Gods, so maybe explore that. I'm going out on a limb here, but Hindus might also not be inclined to take things....too personally.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
It's still Christian tho. A truly "global" Imperium with lots of little tidbits from here and there in the architecture etc would be amazing but prolly a bit beyond what you can doctor into the setting organically at this point. E: the Orthodox thing. I loved the Chaos Dwarves' Babylonian thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 20:28
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:e: well you could definitely have planets using a hindu-ized version of Emperor worship in 40k but the "stock" version is hella catholic Maybe some planets ended up getting destroyed for chaos worship because they gave the emperor an eagle head though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:
Invent a revolutionary human splinter faction and make their flagship have a giant flying red square as its bridge e: 
Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Aug 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Invent a revolutionary human splinter faction and make their flagship have a giant flying red square as its bridge Blessed is the mind too small for TRUMP
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 22:35
|
|
|
I still don't like that almost every "named" character doesn't wear a helmet. The helmets look awesome. Put the helmets on. Design them how you want for distinction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I still don't like that almost every "named" character doesn't wear a helmet. The helmets look awesome. Put the helmets on. Design them how you want for distinction. They should wear helmets that are giant casts of their own heads a la Saints Row 3.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2020 01:51
|
|
|
Tulip posted:They should wear helmets that are giant casts of their own heads a la Saints Row 3.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2020 06:04
|
|
|
I think Shrike of the Raven Guard is one of the only special characters to always wear a helmet, because the ol' beaky just works for obvious reasons.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2020 07:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 04:18 |
|
|
there is a new edition of blood bowl coming out and some of the pages have leaked, so please enjoy this new art
Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Aug 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2020 09:04
|
|