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40K got up its own rear end at least a decade ago and half the fans are unironic fascists. i kind of like the models and aesthetic but nobody can afford them and nobody with any sense wants to play with the other people who play it.
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May 1, 2020 07:49
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warhammer 40K started out life as a way for games workshop to keep making judge dredd figures when their license was running out. a lot of the early 40K stuff was either minor resculpts or just renamed figures from their dredd line. the original metal bikes, with the guns on either side of the front wheel, were one of the longest-lived sculpts originally made for judge dredd.
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May 14, 2020 22:57
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Relevant Tangent posted:Seems like a dumb take, you're letting the people who say things like purge the xenos in the emperor's name on twitter ruin letting little plastic and/or metal things fight to the death while drinking a brewski or soda with your buds. yeah it's not twitter i'm talking about if you haven't had the same problem, more power to you.
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May 18, 2020 23:40
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Tias posted:I haven't followed the newest developments, but it often poked heavy fun at itself, yes. It really depends. The core books and codices went through a long period of scrubbing any trace of humor, irony, or self-mockery, in both "fluff" text and actual rules. Some good examples are how the Machine Spirit goes from a mockery of Imperial ignorance to an actual thing that demonstrably exists and even makes some units more effective in the game proper, or how "Red onez go faster" goes from a superstition to an actual game effect explained as a psychic power driven by collective Ork psychic power. There's also a real shift around the Imperial Guard, where they go from tragic or tragicomic to just straight unironic oorah "first and last line of defense" heroic sacrifice stuff around 4th-5th edition and the increasing emphasis on Cadia. (It's interesting how the online community resists this change! Flashlight memes last a lot longer than the tragicomedy in the IG codices.) Parallel to that you also have Rogue Trader (the RPG, not the original 40K book) and the licensed Black Library fiction taking a more askew look at things. A lot of this is because the authors who liked the tragicomedy spend less time writing game books and more time writing proper books! But even Rogue Trader eventually gives way to a more popular Space Marine spin-off (which is sadly lacking in irony) before rights issues finally torpedo the entire line.
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May 19, 2020 14:22
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Cerv posted:are they still not bringing Squats back? when was the last time squats had an army list? the insert in second edition?
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May 19, 2020 23:24
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PeterWeller posted:Squats were also always more viable and better supported in the Epic game, where they got giant gun trains and armored zeppelins. But those kinds of units couldn't really be reproduced for 40K's 28mm scale in the early 90's. So 40K Squats were just little round dudes who used Imperial ground vehicles and some bikes. They were essentially a slightly tougher but less varied Imperial Guard. They had some unique, goofy field artillery, including a reverse mortar that shot drill projectiles on a parabolic arc through the ground, and a quad-barreled mortar. The Thudd Gun quad-mortar even had its own special weapon template in WH40K 2e, made of four attached small blast templates attached to each other with paper tabs and brass chads. The weapons weren't taken from WHFB, but the rules for them would be very familiar to anyone who played it: they were tiny units of a couple-three crewmen and a single field artillery piece with bespoke rules. They weren't exactly the same as, say, an Organ Gun or a Helblaster Cannon or a Doom Diver but they were recognizably the same type of unit, with the same type of battlefield role.  40K 3e got rid of a lot of these one-off blast templates, and folded most of the WHFB-style war machines and weapon teams into larger units, eventually pushing nearly every weapon towards the Space Marine style of rifle-carry or shoulder-mounted weapons. I don't think these units were ever even in the Imperial Guard's codex for 3e; I do recall at the time that the fact that they weren't included in the IG list was taken by some as a hint that they were being saved for a Squat codex. That obviously didn't happen. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 17:14 on May 21, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 18:37
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PeterWeller posted:I think the only artillery pieces that survived the 3E transition were the Eldar support platforms (which would transition into being more like an IG heavy weapon team), Ork big guns, and that awful poorly cast metal brick, the thunderfire cannon. The Thunderfire wasn't introduced until much later. Googling says 5th edition although I'm not sure about that. e: I might be misremembering this, or have it backwards. This was all to focus on the new Mad Max, melee-first direction for Orks, inspired by Gorkamorka. 40K 3E had a lot more emphasis on moving troops in transports and dreadnaughts, so Orks got new stripped-down wartrukks and got the first dreadnaught unit in the entire game, killa kanz. Orks in 2e had a reputation for being a gimmicky, shooting-focused army, while 3e remade them into a horde-based army that rushed melee in transports. That didn't entirely work - they were notoriously bad for almost all of 3e - and a lot of the goofiness was reintroduced later. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 19:30
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Cease to Hope posted:
fwiw I think I do have this backwards. I think it might've been that they were removed from the 40K 3e core rulebook (which was the only Ork list for a long time!) and readded in considerably less-silly form in the 3e Ork codex. I'm not 100% sure, though.
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May 20, 2020 19:51
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PeterWeller posted:I wouldn't call 2E Orks a shooting focused army. I doubt it was the intended way to play, but 2E Orks were exceptionally bad at melee all around. Having lots of models didn't make you very much better at melee, their melee weapons were mostly poor, their high-points elite units were absolute fodder in melee, and most of their non-special-characters couldn't kill their points in trash or win duels. What did work for 2E Orks were their special, goofy shooting units, as well as a few units that didn't quite work as intended but could do work anyway. In particular, some of those goofy weapons (particularly the Shokk) were great at instantly eliminating your opponent's mega-characters. Optimizing 2E came down to running fairly small numbers of the most goofy, extreme units in the vast majority of cases. There wasn't much to make you actually run your army list's basic troops, other than possibly social opprobrium. A lot of people considered it a really "cheesy" way to play.
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May 20, 2020 20:59
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Filthy Hans posted:imo Genestealer Cults fixed that problem to an extent genestealer cults have been around longer than tyranids though
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May 21, 2020 02:49
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Generally speaking, it's not worth engaging with takes like the one you quoted. There are a lot of people out there desperate to tell you the game died X years ago and only rich Nazis play it now. Mostly these people are bitter weirdoes who drifted away from the game/fiction but cannot let go. Filthy Hans posted:If I wasn't poor as gently caress I'd consider doing Death Guard, Chaos Marines, Genestealer Cults and AdMech armies. They all have fantastic models but putting together a 2000 point list for any of them apart from Death Guard looks like it would cost over $500.  40K models run double to quadruple what they cost when I played, and even then groups were falling apart because of dramatic jumps in model prices.
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May 22, 2020 05:47
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You can't have ambiguous morality in a setting with no mysteries, and these 80s/90s tabletop settings hammer any possible mystery out with explicit, canonical detail.
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May 28, 2020 02:55
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It probably doesn't help that a significant number of Tau stories present them as good guys who do what is necessary to survive in a hard universe.
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May 28, 2020 06:38
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Hodgepodge posted:The real joke is that their optimism is the "end of history" optimism of neoliberalism. Of course they're assholes, they are enacting manifest destiny. Their aesthetic is a sleeker, nicer looking war machine that serves exactly the same purpose as all the scary looking ones. The punchline is that you bought into it, that all it took was a nice coat of paint and some diplomatic niceties for you to buy in. Which again falls into the neoliberal trap of "the alternative is literally monstrous" because the alternatives are literally monsters. There's no satire; it's just another brand of self-satisfied cynicism. 40K supposed social commentary always ends up at this dead end.
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May 28, 2020 09:46
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It's possible, but Pournelle was copping Dune, and 40K has a lot of Dune in it, including things that weren't in Pournelle's books.
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Jun 3, 2020 02:31
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Wasn't one of the canon flags for DKOK the Imperial eagle over an Iron Cross? Granted, the Imperium is lousy with Iron Crosses. e: This is currently for sale, in fact. 
Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 04:24
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A Tatzenkreuz, that sort of flaring cross, is about as iconically German as you can get, doubly so with the Imperial eagle superimposed that way. When GW codes Bretonnians as French, they just put fleur de lis all over their poo poo. It's not subtle. The sample painted model even paints it black on red. 
Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 13:30
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On the other hand, apparently 8th edition finally changed the name of Stormtroopers, so that's something at least.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:54
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The Death Korps of Krieg also originally had pickelhaube helmets. This is from the second Codex Imperial Guard for 40K 3rd edition. The Death Korps were originally mentioned in the first Codex for 3rd, although I can't find a good scan of it to post. That was also the first codex with Stormtroopers, although I can't rightly recall if they were in the Imperial Guard list in the main rulebook or not.
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Jun 8, 2020 17:49
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From earlier in the thread:PeterWeller posted:I think the only artillery pieces that survived the 3E transition were the Eldar support platforms (which would transition into being more like an IG heavy weapon team), Ork big guns, and that awful poorly cast metal brick, the thunderfire cannon. The Thunderfire Cannon was from later, but it's based on an old model that was also revived (IIRC around the same time), the Rapier Laser. Rapier Lasers were also on Space Marine lists in second edition, although they were (again IIRC) removed in third.  This is the best image I could find, and that's not the original crew; originally they were packed with servitors, like the model in the foreground here.  Incidentally, I think the servitor model without any guns might be the oldest sculpt Games Workshop still sells. It dates back all the way to at least Second Edition.
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Jun 8, 2020 18:27
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PeterWeller posted:I think some of the Eldar warlocks are even older. They are, you're right! The Eldar Warlock with the sword across its body is from the original Eldar line, and the Space Wolf Terminators are similarly old. They're from 1993, and the one-piece servitors are from 1995. Tulip posted:The oldest model that GW still presents as 'present' I can think of is globadiers, who are from like the loving 90s. They haven't replaced those models after all these years, too? Wow. In fairness, those are pretty good models. twistedmentat posted:I just want to point out Ww1 Germany and WW2 Germany are very very different. Dkok are firmly in ww1 and just because chuds have cooped them does not make them untouchable. It's complicated. Nazis and neo-Nazis both exalt WWI Germany for different reasons, and a lot of those things percolated into broader popular culture by way of (neo-)Nazi propaganda with or without the actual German Nazi take on them. The idea of badass and terrifying evil-but-also-cool long black coats and Totenkopf insignia is both shorthand for fascists and shorthand for badass ruthless take-no-prisoners soldiers. Likewise the idea of elite warrior-society Stormtroopers. These are both based on WWI Germany, but they're based in WWI Germany when actual fascists use them, too. I don't think you have to be a fascist to design something like that or be attracted to that sort of design, but if you're selling miniatures like that, you're going to attract a disproportionate audience of fascists. I don't think it's intentional dogwhistling on GW's part (although that black Tatzenkreuz on red field is pretty unfortunate).
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Jun 9, 2020 05:49
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Mordja posted:Wait how does that make sense when they're able to put Gargants together? in the fiction, gargants barely work, even by the extremely low standards of titans "working". i don't know the forge world rules for 28mm scale gargants (are there even any rules?) but in 5mm Epic their shields didn't regenerate, and their weapons were prone to failure. plus, orks do actually build trucks and battlewagons and mekork bodies and dreadnaughts and such. they're just all weird bespoke one-offs in the fiction, contrasted with the other factions that can actually mass-produce their vehicles. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 19:42
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Plus, neither 40K nor Fantasy have a lore bible the way, say, Star Wars and Star Trek have, so lots of things just conflict, or were last mentioned in game books that have been out of print for two decades.
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Jun 9, 2020 21:20
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Hodgepodge posted:this is way more interesting and realistic than 'cannon,' and gently caress anyone holding up star wars as how things should be done no, 40K has lots of cannon  but yeah, canon is highly overrated.
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Jun 10, 2020 07:18
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Filthy Hans posted:tag urself, I'm the skull cherub i'm the giant obvious bullet trap in the front of the hull
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Jun 12, 2020 04:12
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twistedmentat posted:Vroooom vroom! Is this replacing attack bikes, or supplementing them? Because it's like the third fast light two-man scooter with a big machine gun, if not.
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Jun 13, 2020 19:54
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Cerv posted:Sneak up on their right to attack cos he can’t rotate the turret without tearing the driver’s head The turrets on these sorts of vehicles have never been super practical.   
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Jun 13, 2020 21:16
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Schadenboner posted:I don't think the Ridge Runner is *that* doofy? It even has an undercarriage armor plate. it's more the turret with a tiny traverse that still manages to clip another crewman in the head
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Jun 13, 2020 23:11
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Schadenboner posted:In-universe I think it's supposed to be more-or-less the 40k version of a Hilux Technical and the crew spotter IIRC is optional wargear? yeah all of the new GSC vehicles are technicals or repurposed industrial equipment. although i think they can also just take IG stuff as brood brothers? i dunno, i don't know a lot about new GSC
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Jun 14, 2020 00:08
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Hodgepodge posted:while the actual writers actually seem to have floated the idea of female space marines occasionally since way before that was being asked anyhow. ??? People have been asking about female space marines as long as GW has been making space marines.
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Jun 21, 2020 07:03
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Hodgepodge posted:they were in rogue trader stuff, so there's been examples of it as long as there have been space marines as well, it's just that they've been Not Cannon since whenever someone decided that mattered and was the sort of thing that needed to be decided Right. I'm just saying that the writers aren't leading the way on this; they're very tentatively dipping their toes into subjects that people were talking about thirty years ago.
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Jun 21, 2020 07:18
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I get the feeling that if you wanted female space marines you were supposed to take your space nun faction with their chastity armor and like them, which is not sufficient at all but that seems to be the intention. I wanna say that the Sisters of Battle and the chainsaw-and-fire faction from Necromunda were really the start of the burn-the-witch, suffer-no-witch-to-live thing in 40K, but my memory of that time's a little fuzzy for an effortpost.
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Jun 21, 2020 08:10
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Not really. I think that's a dismissal a lot of people knee-jerk to. As I recall GW just wanted to expand the view into the Imperium's religious nuttery and decided to do cool space nuns as they already had space monks. The Sororitas were pretty well fleshed out when they launched, with their own supporting range of priests and Frateris Militia (shittily armed faithful). I don't remember if Necromunda Redemptionists came before or after. The Redemptionists were apparently in the Necromunda expansion, in 1996, and Codex: Sisters of Battle was 1997. I couldn't tell you offhand when the first miniatures came out. Around then, sometime. The Sisters were never terribly popular because their models were all-metal and thus very expensive, and their line was relatively tiny compared to other armies. Their first codex has five units in it after the character section, and one of which is the same Rhino as Space Marines and one of which isn't even Sisters of Battle. Mostly people bought them to use them as an ally contingent with Imperial Guard. Internet Kraken posted:Probably because Space Marines are the poster child of the setting whereas the Sisters of Battle are very much regulated to the sidelines. Yeah, mainly this. Marines always had plastic models, a well-fleshed-out line with many options, and multiple army books in every single edition (including the one of the first armybooks for each edition), while Sisters of Battle were metal-only for literal decades, and didn't even get an armybook for most editions. People were even speculating that they were going to be dropped entirely, for a long time. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 08:49
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Oh man, I forgot how incredibly terrible Frateris Militia were. They're worse than gretchin while they cost more points. They're BS 2! They can take "special weapons" on one in five models, but it turns out their "special weapons" list is just nonsense like a boltgun or hand flamer (back when hand flamers had about a 2" range).
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Jun 21, 2020 09:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Sounds like the loyalist equivalent of Chaos Cultists, who are usually similarly pathetic. Cultists had a much, much better wargear list. They could take actual flamers that didn't rely on their terrible BS, template weapons that would scatter on a miss, or you could just take five of them for a cheap-but-inaccurate heavy bolter. Frenzy also helped a little bit, although you'd never want to send WS2 T3 units into melee. I did forget that Frateris (and Cultists) could take shotguns, which were quietly OP in 2e. Shotguns always pushed back living enemies and knocked them over half the time, negating their next movement phase. Since 2nd edition was so focused on characters and giant creatures, a weapon that could stunlock melee monsters that you could take on average dudes was very, very good.
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Jun 21, 2020 09:59
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Since I am reminiscing about the early 90s like an idiot, I'm gonna talk about how weird and bad melee combat was in 2nd edition. Also Necromunda, although it's a bit less weird and bad in that game. Charging would be basically recognizable to someone playing 40K today. You doubled your base movement (no randomness) and moved into contact with the nearest unengaged enemy model, or alternately a closer engaged enemy model although that was usually a bad idea for reasons that will become clear. Dudes who charged or are in melee skipped shooting, and you usually couldn't end up in melee except by charging or being charged. Melee was totally different from later editions, though. Each one-on-one contact between opposing models is resolved as a separate combat. Each player takes their model's WS, rolls d6s equal to the model's attack score, and adds the highest die to the WS. Charging gives +1, a handful of circumstantial poo poo that rarely came up gives bonuses or penalties. Multiple attacks are weird, because they give you more chances to roll high, but they also give more chances to roll crits or fumbles. Each crit (every 6 after the first) gives +1 to your final score, and each 1 is a fumble and gives -1. Also, you get a parry for each sword you have. A parry lets you force your opponent to reroll a die. However, if both sides parry, they cancel each other out instead. If one side has a higher score, they hit their opponent a number of times equal to the difference. If they tie, the model with higher Initiative hits the enemy once. If a model is in base contact with multiple enemies, you handle each of these fights individually in turn, although the later combatants get +1 attack and +1 to combat score for each person their opponent has already fought this turn. Hits in close combat were resolved using the strength and armor save penalty of any single weapon the attacker was wielding. This includes pistols, which were usually better at dealing damage than whatever melee weapons the model could take. The ideal weapon loadout for dedicated melee characters was usually a parry weapon (a sword or chainsworsx since they're cheap and you're not going to hit with them anyway) and their faction's best high-str melee weapon (power fists were the baseline, with STR 8 and -5 to saves). Regular melee troops would take a sword/chain sword/power sword for the parry if they could, and usually plasma pistols, power fists, or power swords to actually do the damage. This made close combat in 2e exhausting. Both players rolled multiple dice just for the to-hit calculation, and it required remembering how many enemies each model has already fought. Actually resolving a relatively straightforward fight between two units took ages, and complicated fights where each model touched multiple other models were a nightmare. It also made it very random. Dedicated melee combatants tended to have better melee weapons than ranged units who just had basic STR 3 or 4 hits with pistols or default hand weapons, but they weren't actually much better at winning combat. WS 3-4 with 2-3 attacks and maybe a parry lost combat to WS 3-4 and 1 attack distressingly often, especially against numerous enemies or if they didn't have the charge bonus. Horde armies could win combats with outnumber bonuses, but their wargear list was often so bad that they did relatively little damage when they won combat, while non-melee units could often countercharge them, win combat, and do significant damage with just default STR 3/4 hits. It also made characters and high WS monsters unstoppable gods of melee combat. High-ranking characters regularly had WS7 or more, so they'd wade into a unit and annihilate everyone in base contact. Most characters usually couldn't kill more enemies than they could make base contact with, but they'd regularly hit each of those based enemies three or more times. 2e armies were usually tricked out characters with a bunch of unimportant mooks tagging along, and the melee rules were a big part of that.
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Jun 21, 2020 11:21
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Space marines aren't monks. Nothing about their aesthetic resembles monks in any way. Mechanicus are monks, dark angels are monks, ministorum are monks, but space marines are mainly chunky supersoldiers. None of the "lore" about space marines being hidebound religious fanatics comes out in the actual miniature line, and definitely none of the stuff about their weird organ transplant puberty stuff. They're just large men with ornate and ancient-looking, vaguely Germanic armor and chunky, goofy weapons.
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Jun 21, 2020 18:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:How do you retcon it properly though? You write new stories and hit anyone who complains on the nose with a rolled up newspaper
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Jun 21, 2020 19:03
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Half of those images are dark angels or mechanicus, and the other half aren't monklike in any way and are linking to articles repeating 40K "lore"
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Jun 21, 2020 19:36
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There is a fundamental disconnect between what space marines are in 40K lore and what they are in literally everything else. Take, for example, the idea that space marines are space monks that live in space monasteries. Think about all of the things actual monks are. Space marines aren't reclusive or cloistered. They're crusading supersoldiers out looking for fights in almost every scene they're in. Every edition of 40K has a space marine on the cover, not worshipping in solitude, but out kicking rear end. Their simple ubiquity never makes them feel like they're separate from 40K as a whole; rather, 40K factions could easily be sorted into roughly three equal-sized groups of space marines, their allies, and their enemies. Space marines aren't ascetic or impoverished. They have big, bold, gaudy armor, with lots of decorations, and they're the best armor and best weapons in the whole Imperium. It's easy to pick individuals out, because they have the fanciest armor and the fanciest weapons. The lore claims marines are hidebound, but the way you're encouraged to personalize both individual models and your army as a whole puts the lie to that. There are space marines whose aesthetic is that they're ascetics, but dark angels are mainly the exception to the whole. Monks wear simple clothing out of an effort to renounce individualism and materialism, while every space marine is out there in big, bold, brightly-colored, customized armor. Space marines aren't particularly spiritual. This isn't a specific quality of space marines so much as an exclusive quality, when you contrast units deviating from their baseline. Sisters of Battle and Ministorum get special rules for believing really hard in the Emperor. The particularly fervent factions of space marines get special rules for being fervent, rules most space marines don't get. Space marine rules are almost entirely materialistic, focusing on the details of the stuff they own and use, rather than what space marines believe in or how they worship. Monks are clergy, while space marine clergy is a specific, separate unit. Chaplains are priests attached to a largely secular organization. Chapels and chaplains are the religious sub-part of a whole that is not chiefly religious. You don't need a chaplain for monks because their entire home and their entire lives are dedicated to worship; they don't need a separate carve-out specifically for worship. There's a lot about how space marines look in 40K art and work in 40K the game that doesn't go along with the "lore". They aren't weird mutants: there's two or three other whole factions of weird mutants, while space marines are the baseline for basically every unit in 40K. They aren't conservative or bookbound, since there's about one new space marine thing for every new thing any other army gets, and you're encouraged to make up your own new flashy look for them. They aren't inhuman; they're basically just dudes in armor and they're the intended intro faction for new players to identify with. They obviously aren't rare or elite: again, intro faction for new players, and you'll always find at least one marine player for every other faction player. GW writers can say that space marines are rare elite hidebound monks that live in space monasteries, and you can write any number of articles on 40k.wikia.com to that effect. The problem is that only people who read the rulebooks cover to cover, or dig into the novelizations, or read 40k.wikia.com, will ever know or care about that. So people (IMO quite reasonably) demand things that are congruous with the way space marines look and play while ignoring the lore they didn't read because it's boring and terrible. A Buttery Pastry posted:How do you tie these new stories into existing lore? Talking retconning the last 10k years of imperial history here, not adding something to the present day setting. The latter would be extremely easy to do, even if I'm not sure how much representation you'd end up getting out of putting a bunch of girls through a process that makes them hypermasculine and completely nonsexual. You don't! I'm old enough to remember when they just threw a ton of poo poo from Rogue Trader out the loving window because it was too boring or esoteric or possibly a copyright violation. You can just do that. Like, the problem with Age of Sigmar is that the new game was stupid and the new setting is not great. Throwing out all of the Tolkien fanfiction wasn't the problem there! Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 20:19
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