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Woofer
Mar 2, 2020


Hillary won those debates like the Falcons won the super bowl.

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Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Woofer posted:

Hillary won those debates like the Falcons won the super bowl.

I mean, she did, it just didn't matter since everyone's opinion of Trump and Hillary was already baked in, and the gains she made after the debates were mostly erased by election day (In part due to ~emails~).

Woofer
Mar 2, 2020


Acebuckeye13 posted:

I mean, she did, it just didn't matter since everyone's opinion of Trump and Hillary was already baked in, and the gains she made after the debates were mostly erased by election day (In part due to ~emails~).

If that’s a win then I have no idea why debates exist.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Debates exist to comfort the liberal fantasy that people's minds can be changed if you just present your argument eloquently enough, despite scientific evidence that it just causes people to dig in to their held beliefs even more.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


Hillary is the 2016 Debate and Popular Vote Champion. Poor Trump!

Oxygenpoisoning
Feb 20, 2006


Tv advertising revenue of course.

My guess is Biden at some point challenges Trump’s manhood and starts doing push-ups while Trump does his over exaggerated facial and hand gestures, then Fox News spins it as manly to take the high ground.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

Internet Wizard posted:

Perhaps the second or third google results then

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisw...e/#2a53def980dc


https://news.stanford.edu/2020/03/3...e-age-covid-19/


Or just keep assuming you know better without even a single search, I guess

That was disingenuous of me, I was trying to type up a response before I had an appointment and didn't give it the nuance it deserved. I didn't mean to play a game of find-a-more-convincing-article-nope-not-good-enough.

I know it's not known at a rigorous level because it's very difficult to know at a rigorous level. You can't design an experiment to determine meaningful broad conclusion because the question is too generic to clearly demonstrate an all-cases fundamental truth. You need bodies of literature which will likely determine a complicated answer. The way to analyze these kinds of effects will be to consider a variety of inputs and determine based on either experiment or analogous data how each of those effects appear to have influenced outcomes. I believe there is evidence that supports that working from home increases productivity in many cases--I believe most for office-type work. But I'm confident that the proportions of the benefits change from case to case.

So, lets break down that Stanford article to show what I mean:

quote:

That research was based on a randomized control trial on 1,000 employees of Ctrip, a Chinese travel company.
Already I ask myself, are the work habits, tasks, objectives, and work culture analagous between the tasks of an employee Chinese travel company and the various tasks of executives and engineers at a Silicon Valley tech firm?

quote:

The experiment revealed that working from home during a nine-month period led to a 13 percent increase in performance – almost an extra day of output per week – plus a 50 percent drop in employee-quit rates.
Will these rates apply similarly to someone being paid a six-figure salary?

quote:

The Ctrip experiment also explicitly asked employees to work from home four days a week and come into the office every fifth day.

In-person collaboration is necessary for creativity and innovation, Bloom says. His research has shown that face-to-face meetings are essential for developing new ideas and keeping staff motivated and focused.
The experimenters here identified that they do not want to completely lose touch with their employees. Do these effects transfer if you live in Des Moines, (unless you travel into your Facebook office once a week?)


quote:

The element of personal choice is a final factor contributing to the success of Ctrip’s work-from-home policy that is absent in the current situation. Of the 1,000 Ctrip employees offered the choice to work from home, only 500 volunteered. The others wanted to remain in the office.
This part is analogous, because this situation is talking about choice.


quote:

After nine months of allowing those employees to do their jobs at home, Ctrip asked the original volunteers whether they wanted to keep working remotely or return to the office. Half of them requested to return to the office, despite their average commute being 40 minutes each way.

Why was that?

“The answer is social company,” Bloom says. “They reported feeling isolated, lonely and depressed at home. So, I fear an extended period of working from home will not only kill office productivity but is building a mental health crisis.”

Despite the drawbacks, Bloom suggests a few things that can help stem the productivity decline he fears: Regular check-ins between managers and their teams; maintaining schedules that strive to separate work life from family life, and collaborating with colleagues on video calls rather than phone calls.

And long term qualitative review of the study suggests that this implementation of remote work is problematic.




A model to determine what kinds of jobs improve would be huge, require invasive and massive survey and experimentation, would need to be performed outside of the current context, and would also be limited in descriptive power to the technological and social contexts it was measured in--the experiment would need to be repeated to adjust for changes in:

-social perception (i.e. workers may be more receptive now than they were last year),
-legal requirements and ramifications (10 years ago, there was zero liability for data compromise, now there is some, though little, 10 years from now there may be more),
-technology (will advances in VR and our willingness/ability to engage in online leisure more generally allow us to reap the benefits that Bloom ascribes to face-to-face meetings?)
-other factors

That's how I can feel confident that a study without sufficient resolution and predictive power doesn't exist.

But you don't need one. We don't learn to ride a bike by learning how all bikes work, how all physics work, and how we can manipulate those properties by contorting our bodies in real time. We learn to ride a bike by starting to ride a bike and detecting deviation and making small adjustments. When you limit your question from "Is remote work good?" to "Is a particular implementation of remote work effective for this particular firm" you can make changes, perform local experiments, and determine how those affect local metrics.

I believe that if we completely abolish local work tomorrow forever, there's a lot of risk associated with that decision. I think not recognizing that remote work has benefits would be a mistake as well. And if some people prefer to work remotely, sufficiently such that they're willing to take pay cuts to remotely work full-time, then that's a good indication that if you do not implement a policy and a framework to support those people that do, you're leaving valuable talent on the table. Personally, I advocate for more remote work and more remote work options. The reason has less to do with productivity and cost benefit, but with a desire to be more free, with people more in charge of their own happiness. If this becomes true, it wont be because it's more effective. It'll be because it's at least acceptably less effective, but the worker prefers it. But we also have to solve a lot of other issues before that would be true in all cases.




Enough of all that. I think what this is, more than anything, is Zuck opening his mouth and mangling HR imperatives through the eyes of a soulless robot. What he said is, (paraphrased in an ominous voice)You don't have to come back to work, but we're paying you less if you move and if you lie there will be consequences.

The same policy could have been described as, For employees local to the bay area, we're considering a remote-work intensive employment option, allowing employees to work from home 90% of the time if they wish. Because the infrastructure that supports this could support work elsewhere, and Facebook (TM) is an employee-oriented company that wants to support the desires of our talent, and even though we don't yet fully know the costs and benefits of working remotely, when we get back to work we're considering employment outside our concentration areas as well! Our implementation plan is tentative and likely to change as we learn more, but because this is a person-oriented business and I'm a person with blood and emotion and all of those things you real humans have, we'll be offering generous renegotiation for employees who prefer to utilize this remote work infrastructure and operate from outside our primary employment area.

But Zuck isn't programmed to do that, so here we are.

piL fucked around with this message at 17:09 on May 22, 2020

90s Solo Cup
Feb 22, 2011

To understand the cup
He must become the cup





CBJSprague24 posted:

Biden is going to shoot himself in the dick and hand Trump four more years on a silver platter, isn't he?

Already made my peace with the fact that Trump's walking away with another term. I'm just here to see how badly Biden manages to gently caress up and embarrass himself in the coming months.

Woofer
Mar 2, 2020


90s Solo Cup posted:

Already made my peace with the fact that Trump's walking away with another term. I'm just here to see how badly Biden manages to gently caress up and embarrass himself in the coming months.

Hopefully he takes the entire party down with him.

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7pz7CqWTMs

Johnny Five-Jaces
Jan 21, 2009




Woofer posted:

Hopefully he takes the entire party down with him.

hope is a mistake

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Y’all missing the entire point of this whole mess


https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/...navirus-4156457

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005



Holy gently caress 2020 finally delivers good news

BigDave
Jul 14, 2009

THERE WILL BE REPERCUSSIONS! NOTHING CAN EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!


shame on an IGA posted:

Holy gently caress 2020 finally delivers good news



Hot drat!

I thought it got cancelled because the animators tried to unionize?

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020



Acebuckeye13 posted:

I mean, she did, it just didn't matter since everyone's opinion of Trump and Hillary was already baked in, and the gains she made after the debates were mostly erased by election day (In part due to ~emails~).

I watched those debates and she didn't win.

LongDarkNight
Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.

Oven Wrangler

90s Solo Cup posted:

Already made my peace with the fact that Trump's walking away with another term. I'm just here to see how badly Biden manages to gently caress up and embarrass himself in the coming months.

On the brightside we won't have to worry about presidential elections ever again.

C.M. Kruger
Oct 28, 2013


facialimpediment posted:

Fuckin RIP

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/statu...4287725574?s=19

That French wackodoctor probably got a bunch of people killed. This still isn't the gold standard randomized trial, but it's overpowered by sheer numbers / locations.

Meanwhile in India:
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1263854238196568065

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008



https://twitter.com/markknoller/sta...0291231744?s=19

This is classic Trump. He wants to be running a unitary government but doesn't want any of the risk or downside and then blames governors

A Bad Poster
Sep 25, 2006
Seriously, shut the fuck up.



Nick Soapdish posted:

https://twitter.com/markknoller/sta...0291231744?s=19

This is classic Trump. He wants to be running a unitary government but doesn't want any of the risk or downside and then blames governors

Fine, loving whatever. One problem solving another problem by creating a third problem.

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

"Roll on, thou deep and dark blue ocean, roll!"



PeterCat posted:

I watched those debates and she didn't win.

maybe its a berenstain berenstein thing

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


BigDave posted:

Hot drat!

I thought it got cancelled because the animators tried to unionize?

It front and centers adult swim so they probably found a new backer.

CRUSTY MINGE
Mar 30, 2011
Chelsea Manning is a goddamned HERO


I don't know what it is, but every time I see Betsy DeVos pop up in my news feed, I feel like I'm going to see Christine Baranski play her in a CBS movie about a scandal in like, a decade.

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


tuca is my fave disaster

Knives Amilli
Sep 26, 2014



ngl id take 85k in the suburbs of Dallas vs 100k in the Bay Area

Grip it and rip it
Apr 28, 2020


Biden campaign considering "Real n**** roll call" by Lil'jon & The Eastside Boyz ft. Ice Cube as their campaign anthem

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


^I don't even know if that's a loving joke or not. (they should use Nobody Speak)

Best Friends posted:

I think Biden is the only dem Trump would be willing to debate, after how Hillary of all people wrecked him. Dems will not pull out of a debate because following the norms when engaging republicans is their core value. I think they're going to happen.

Trump doesn't think Hillary wrecked him, and neither does 1/3 of the country. He's going to win the debate(s) against Biden, because all he has to do is show up and repeat catchphrases. He will absolutely say "lock him up" referencing Hunter.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 19:53 on May 22, 2020

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Is FTGE still ok, despite potential to be construed as homophobic? Because my brain has reached the limit of stupid it can take and would be ok with an asteroid strike.

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

I'm too dumb to get probated


thanks for clearing up Hilary won those debates, guys, wow counted for so much.

facialimpediment
Feb 11, 2005

as the world turns


https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1263921919738490880

Everyone will forget about this by Tuesday, it will come back in ads around October/November as the new "you didn't build that", and some Trumper will whine on TV about how white people can't say the n-word.

The election was likely already over months ago because Donnie can't shut his trap and can't help but try to be the lead story every day. His campaign keeps putting out distorted/edited clips so this genuine fuckup won't break through. This will likely happen many more times and it still won't matter.

Biden will win by 8%, 304-234. It's not 2016.


BTW: The Republican candidate for Senate in Oregon is having a normal one:

https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/sta...927846109540352

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Godholio posted:

(they should use Nobody Speak)

And turn it up right at that *one* part...

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005



Godholio posted:

^I don't even know if that's a loving joke or not. (they should use Nobody Speak)



Mind Playing Tricks

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010


shame on an IGA posted:

Mind Playing Tricks

I was just jamming to this Geto Boys classic

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Knives Amilli posted:

ngl id take 85k in the suburbs of Dallas vs 100k in the Bay Area

100k in the Bay Area means you're probably not working at FB lol

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

shame on an IGA posted:

Mind Playing Tricks

Praying

Hot Karl Marx
Mar 16, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


Fun Shoe

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/st...mber%3D777pti34

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Welcome to the resistance, Kayleigh

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Brian Beutler (@brianbeutler) Tweeted:
Fixed it for you, @nytimes. https://t.co/TH5dOnaRQ5 https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/st...9124391938?s=20

NYT: Flouting norms, Trump has four Supreme Court justices arrested.

MrMojok
Jan 27, 2011



supposedly at some point recently the Trump Admin was discussing resumption of nuke testing

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Woofer posted:

If that’s a win then I have no idea why debates exist.

Ostensibly, debates exist to give candidates a chance to speak directly to undecided voters and for each candidate to clearly enunciate their stances on a number of issues while challenging their opponents. In the modern campaign reality, of course, the questions are chosen to generate soundbites, there's not enough time for answers to reach anything of substance, and candidates are carefully coached to avoid straying from any of their pre-established answers and talking points, so they're effectively campaign commercials for undecided or persuadable voters who are only casually aware of the candidates and their proposals (which consists of more people than you'd think, most people aren't mainlining the news or twitter). (modern debates are extremely bad regardless, of course)

As to why the 2016 debates failed to change the result of the election despite Clinton 'winning' all three (Going by polling at least), a lot of it comes down to the fundamentals of why she lost 2016 to begin with, but also because the last debate took place nearly a month before the election, which gave Trump time to recover enough to the point that, when Clinton got hit with the Comey letter at the last minute, he was able to pull ahead by slim margins in just enough states to win.

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AreWeDrunkYet
Jul 8, 2006

I am a strawman spewing, non listening, logic challenged douchebag supreme trolling TFR. Ignore me.


Microsoft's CEO of all people made a decent observation about the current corporate work from home situation. It's one thing to go home suddenly for an emergency and continue to be productive with same team that has been building relationships in the office. But that may not extend indefinitely, especially once there's natural turnover on the team. Eventually the people you need something from aren't the same group you get lunch with every day and go out for a happy hour with now and then. Does that mean employees are less invested in the outcome of their teammates' work? Does it mean what was previously done informally now has to be an official process? There's only limited data on this as you point out.

I don't doubt that remote work is at least as productive in most circumstances for interchangeable workers whose output you can specifically measure - call center agents, QA testers, etc. But it's a much less obvious question for highly technical teams that rely on a variety of related skillsets.

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