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bornbytheriver posted:On this day, one year ago: The origin of crying wolf
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May 12, 2020 15:14
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WhyteRyce posted:I don't think Fred Van Vleet has ever been on the same team as his son  one of the only cases where the dad came into the league AFTER the son
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May 12, 2020 15:21
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dokmo posted:two and a half minutes of charges Dokmo noooo Why charges? D: We need to discourage that poo poo.
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May 12, 2020 15:28
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Oceanlife posted:I will fight you all forever on this. The fact that we can actually have an argument about old man Wilt being better than Kareem in his prime shows how much better Wilt was in his prime. Kareem wasn't in his prime. Kareem was 22-25 years old when he played Wilt. Sarcopenia sets in at 25 and by 27-30ish players hit their physical peak in life. This is exacerbated by basketball being an endurance sport which typically means players don't peak until they're 30. That's also just one game. Wilt and Kareem almost split their series even at 14 games for Wilt and 13 for Kareem. Kareem and Wilt also split their first 10 games, IE where Kareem was "in his prime" and Wilt was an "old man". Wilt didn't have to play against much deeper talent, he played against trash and poo poo. The Celtics were his only challenge. Kareem had to play against the unified league during his prime when the ABA folded in 76. This flooded the field with Artis Gilmore, George Gervin, Dr. J, Rick Barry, and Moses Malone. Also athleticism doesn't just come from being able to jump higher or run faster than the next guy. Kareem's endurance across 20 seasons is otherworldly. You talk about old man Wilt but Kareem was legitimately an old man playing and putting up 10/5 in his age 41 season. Wilt may have been cooler in the fact that he had a more playboy lifestyle but Kareem is a staunch civil rights activist and cancer research advocate. Writer, director, and actor. Wilt doing coke and plowing a bunch of groupies doesn't really hold a candle to that. Or actually it does but for the purpose of this argument it doesn't. Kareems the best player of all time. Better than Lebron and MJ, and definitely better than Wilt.
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May 12, 2020 15:42
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Only one of Kareem and Wilt has written an episode of Veronica Mars.
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May 12, 2020 16:04
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dokmo posted:two and a half minutes of charges i'm gonna make one of these except it's just gonna be a supercut of Lowry taking charges set to baby got back
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May 12, 2020 16:06
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Doltos posted:Kareem wasn't in his prime. Kareem was 22-25 years old when he played Wilt. Sarcopenia sets in at 25 and by 27-30ish players hit their physical peak in life. This is exacerbated by basketball being an endurance sport which typically means players don't peak until they're 30. This is true (Edit: Or not) in baseball but I really don't think this is true in basketball, especially when talking about the star players. Lebron's best seasons were from 24-28, same with Durant (Shaq was 25-30, Garnett 25-30, Kobe 25-30). By 30 most NBA players are at or nearing the end of their prime. I am not sure I've ever looked at 26 or 27 year old player and thought they'd be better better past 30. I can't find a single star player who had their best season at 30 (or even 29).  Generally even this chart is skewed older since marginal players can lean on experience or are out of the league. Look at almost any star player and you'll see their peak usually comes before 30 (which can include their prime, but usually the latter part), even if they are still really good into their early 30s. Kareem's prime was huge but he was also pretty much in it when he came into the league. The guy basically stepped on the NBA floor ready to dominate and held it until his late 30s. I completely agree with you on Kareem's endurance/durability. Lockback fucked around with this message at 16:32 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 16:12
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It's extremely not true in baseball.
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May 12, 2020 16:15
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morestuff posted:The NBA should bring back territorial rights so Charlotte can compete at some point The Bobcats basically drafted as if they had territorial rights and it led to picks like Sean May.
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May 12, 2020 16:27
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Henchman of Santa posted:The Bobcats basically drafted as if they had territorial rights and it led to picks like Sean May. — Yeah but they'd also have Zion — Sean May would have been a solid pick if his bones worked
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May 12, 2020 16:34
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SilvergunSuperman posted:It's extremely not true in baseball. Yeah, I've heard that "Physical Peak at 30" more around baseball where a guy might have his best season at 30 or even a little older but that's basically unheard of in basketball.
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May 12, 2020 16:34
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Does anybody offhandedly know of any good source for season retrospectives? In the depths of my boredom last night I watched what must have been the NBA films championship video from the Celtics win in 1986. It's a very entertaining mix of basketball highlight reel and cultural artifact. Is there any other source for these? The main issue with it is it understandably focuses on the celtics, and I would've preferred more time spent on the young up and coming Karl Malone or Patrick Ewing and less time interviewing Danny Ainge's wife. I'd still recommend it to a sufficiently bored basketball junkie just for the overwrought writing and Larry Bird passes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlhTJ2L4W0w
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May 12, 2020 16:36
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I wonder if we're seeing a shift in career trajectories among elite players, as usage patterns change (like fewer practices and other high stress nongame activities). Like Lebron and Harden and Lillard and possibly others have long peaks that are going into their 30s, something I don't think we saw much of in earlier generations.
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May 12, 2020 16:37
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man
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It’s the steroids.
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May 12, 2020 16:45
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dokmo posted:I wonder if we're seeing a shift in career trajectories among elite players, as usage patterns change (like fewer practices and other high stress nongame activities). Like Lebron and Harden and Lillard and possibly others have long peaks that are going into their 30s, something I don't think we saw much of in earlier generations. Injuries being more likely to be diagnosed correctly, with better treatments is also probably a huge factor. Even if you're not talking about big injuries like ACL tears, the fact that guys can get MRI's for soreness and are quicker to rest of small wear & tear injuries probably does a lot.
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May 12, 2020 16:46
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LeBrons going to play until he's 50
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May 12, 2020 16:50
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This:dokmo posted:I wonder if we're seeing a shift in career trajectories among elite players, as usage patterns change (like fewer practices and other high stress nongame activities). Like Lebron and Harden and Lillard and possibly others have long peaks that are going into their 30s, something I don't think we saw much of in earlier generations. Combined with this: Lockback posted:This is true (Edit: Or not) in baseball but I really don't think this is true in basketball, especially when talking about the star players. Lebron's best seasons were from 24-28, same with Durant (Shaq was 25-30, Garnett 25-30, Kobe 25-30). By 30 most NBA players are at or nearing the end of their prime. I am not sure I've ever looked at 26 or 27 year old player and thought they'd be better better past 30. I can't find a single star player who had their best season at 30 (or even 29). Is probably the answer. Statistical output doesn't always have to equal a player being in their prime. A host of factors influences how many points a person scores, from usage to team makeup to experience to athleticism. Same with the other categories. As you said in your post players are more experienced as they get older and score better. That could be part of the definition for the concept of an athletes peak. Experience + Athleticism. Being able to put together all your athletic talents by displaying better body control, shot selection, or tactical prowess. It's like we remember Minnesota Garnett for his sheer athleticism and Boston Garnett for his championships. Which one is the better peak in terms of success? How much credence do we give a player for putting up a ton of points on a bad team or putting up less points on a good team? How much do injuries and usage actually play into a player being at their peak form of athleticism? Lebron's "best seasons" are usually his highest point scoring seasons but not his best rebound or assist seasons. One involves banging down low and the other involves ball handling, both which require high athleticism in the NBA. Shaq dealt with constant injuries after his age 27 season which was also his best season which was also 2 years older than Kareem's matchups with Wilt. Kobe again put up his best statistical scoring seasons at age 27-28. His 30 ppg aged 24 season coincided with Shaq's age 30 season, so saying playing alongside an ultrastar in his prime could lead to more statistical output. Garnett led the league in rebounding and had his best statistical scoring seasons between the ages of 27-30. Again injuries and usage saw his numbers dip after his age 30 season.
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May 12, 2020 16:57
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Lockback posted:Yeah, I've heard that "Physical Peak at 30" more around baseball where a guy might have his best season at 30 or even a little older but that's basically unheard of in basketball. This waa the conventional wisdom for a long time but for the most part baseball players actually peak at like 25-27. Debunking the idea that they peak in their early 30s was an early Bill James thing iirc. MourningView fucked around with this message at 17:05 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 17:01
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Baseball is also the sport where you go out and destroy your body in every non-contact way possible. Pitchers defy the range of a human elbow and batters wrench their backs as badly as golfers. They also play a ridiculous amount with 3-4 games a week regularly from March to October. Nagging injuries are bound to sap athleticism by the time they get older.
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May 12, 2020 17:24
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It's always fun to chuckle at Robert Sarver https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/gi3it3/suns_owner_robert_sarver_after_jayson_tatum_made/
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May 12, 2020 17:33
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https://theathletic.com/1807946/2020/05/11/jayson-tatum-phoenix-suns-boston-celtics-draft/?source=emp_shared_articlequote:Then the Phoenix Suns coach, Watson had played with or coached some of the best shooters ever: Ray Allen, Kevin Durant, Mike Miller, Damian Lillard and Jason Kapono. Watson had seen them do some incredible things, but he does not recall any workout quite like Jayson Tatum’s pre-draft audition for the Suns. Tatum warmed up with a ballhandling drill, Watson recalled during a phone call Monday afternoon, and then the wing went straight to the corner to shoot 3-pointers. Players normally work their way out to the arc slowly, taking closer shots first. Tatum did not bother. Even without any shots to loosen up, he was already hot. I have no clue what this feels like
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May 12, 2020 17:36
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dokmo posted:I wonder if we're seeing a shift in career trajectories among elite players, as usage patterns change (like fewer practices and other high stress nongame activities). Like Lebron and Harden and Lillard and possibly others have long peaks that are going into their 30s, something I don't think we saw much of in earlier generations. Almost certainly. Load management is real. I think people can still be at the top of the game in their 30's.....they just can't do it 3-4 times a week is the main issue. Your body's ability to recover and recuperate in one or two nights degrades to much more of an extent than your stamina and muscles do. So being smarter about recovery, which is where so much of modern training focus is at, goes a long way. Obviously everyone likes to make up what ifs so you take it with a grain of salt, but I remember Steve Nash in his last two failed Laker seasons saying something along the lines of "if the season only had one game a week, I'd be out there right now." Also not an NBA game, but with all the MJ talk going on it's a good time to look back on the story of him taking on a Bobcat at 1v1 when he was 50. quote:He looked out the window of his office and saw his brother dominating one of the best players on the Bobcats in one-on-one. The next morning, Larry says with a smile, Jordan never made it into his office. He got as far as the team's training room, where he received treatment. CRISPYBABY fucked around with this message at 18:12 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 18:09
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CRISPYBABY posted:Almost certainly. Load management is real. I think people can still be at the top of the game in their 30's.....they just can't do it 3-4 times a week is the main issue. Your body's ability to recover and recuperate in one or two nights degrades to much more of an extent than your stamina and muscles do. So being smarter about recovery, which is where so much of modern training focus is at, goes a long way. Sarver is terrible but there is no way they were getting Tatum no matter how much they wanted him.
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May 12, 2020 18:13
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Lockback posted:Sarver is terrible but there is no way they were getting Tatum no matter how much they wanted him. During workouts the Celtics were trying to trade down so you never know but it's mostly just to laugh at Sarver interrupting a shooting drill streak and thinking that adding another scorer to complement Devin Booker is a bad thing
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May 12, 2020 18:47
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i miss Steve Adams' brick wall screens
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May 12, 2020 19:00
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Cool Buff Man posted:During workouts the Celtics were trying to trade down so you never know but it's mostly just to laugh at Sarver interrupting a shooting drill streak and thinking that adding another scorer to complement Devin Booker is a bad thing Didn't Boston pretty much immediately say they would have taken Tatum #1? They traded down because they knew LA was taking Lonzo and that Philly would want Fultz if they were on top. Given that I don't know what the Suns would have offered (outside of Booker) that would have pried any of those 3 away from their picks. Agreed though, Sarver is the actively harmful owner in the league and that is saying something. I guess TJ Warren is pretty decent but thinking you wouldn't need a shooty, switchy, bouncy guy that plays multiple positions because you have Devin Booker and that's enough is a big brain take.
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May 12, 2020 19:14
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It takes a true visionary to watch Steph and Klay shoot their way to a title and a record-breaking season and then say "why would I want two shooters?"
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May 12, 2020 19:22
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Lockback posted:Didn't Boston pretty much immediately say they would have taken Tatum #1? They traded down because they knew LA was taking Lonzo and that Philly would want Fultz if they were on top. Given that I don't know what the Suns would have offered (outside of Booker) that would have pried any of those 3 away from their picks. the suns gave away tj warren for cash though.
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May 12, 2020 19:23
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https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1260272163489288194?s=19 They're still gauging to see if the season might be played? Just scrap it and call it lost imo
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May 12, 2020 19:28
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The Celtics/reporters who act as PR for the Celtics have definitely played up that they would have taken Tatum 1 since it happened but my memory at the time is that they just didn't see a huge gap between the top few guys so they figured there wasn't much harm in moving down and getting extra picks. Which to their credit is still way more correct than I was on Tatum vs Fultz, though I would still really like to see a do over for Fultz's career
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May 12, 2020 19:31
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I'd say that regardless the bigger issue is, did sarver look at the guards from fox thru i dunno, DSJ and say "don't need another devin booker"? did he say that about markkanen? fast forward a year and did he say that about doncic? another year, did he say that about coby white? and we ended up with cam johnson anyways...
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May 12, 2020 19:34
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Mr. Funktastic posted:https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1260272163489288194?s=19 Players, and people in general, like millions of dollars
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May 12, 2020 19:37
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hifi posted:I'd say that regardless the bigger issue is, did sarver look at the guards from fox thru i dunno, DSJ and say "don't need another devin booker"? did he say that about markkanen? fast forward a year and did he say that about doncic? another year, did he say that about coby white? and we ended up with cam johnson anyways... Ayton was specifically played at Arizona and booker wanted him. He was also good choice at number 1
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May 12, 2020 19:43
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hifi posted:I'd say that regardless the bigger issue is, did sarver look at the guards from fox thru i dunno, DSJ and say "don't need another devin booker"? did he say that about markkanen? fast forward a year and did he say that about doncic? another year, did he say that about coby white? and we ended up with cam johnson anyways... Ayton over Luka was mostly about wanting the local guy and Sarver being a big Arizona booster, I think. The most recent draft they definitely went the complete opposite direction and were going with shooting above anything else. Metapod posted:He was also good choice at number 1 lol
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May 12, 2020 19:43
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the 2018 draft's top 5 is in the correct order if you loop around from the third pick luka jjj trae ayton bagley totally defensible!
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May 12, 2020 19:46
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Ayton is a double double machine and gets treated like he's trash
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May 12, 2020 19:53
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Metapod posted:Ayton is a double double machine and gets treated like he's trash the young man just wants to play power forward and piss all night long, why won't they leave him alone?
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May 12, 2020 19:56
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Metapod posted:Ayton is a double double machine and gets treated like he's trash Its hosed up op
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May 12, 2020 19:57
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Metapod posted:Ayton is a double double machine and gets treated like he's trash He's not trash there just is not a universe where he's the best player in that very good draft unless some other guys get hurt.
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May 12, 2020 20:00
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| # ? May 21, 2024 03:02 |
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Remember this https://twitter.com/KellanOlson/status/1213338658679345152 Thats cool. Protect Ayton
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May 12, 2020 20:04
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