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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Keiko is cool and good and Rosalind Chao plays her absolutely perfectly.

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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Nebakenezzer posted:

Some movies as well

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade:


The older I get the more Harrison Ford's genuine contempt for the fans makes sense.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I like to imagine Sisko couldn't help but resent and treat O'Brien a little worse after that day

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Pick posted:

I've always been extremely angry that the spider is not on deep space nine

Just pretend its skin flakes make Bajorans bust out into hives or something

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I mean it's like that Angel One planet where Wesley almost got put to death for stepping on the flowers-- the Federation probably warns tourists off and doesn't give them good trade deals.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



It was pretty pretentious to invent a blue collar title for O'Brien and to try to make him a working man in Starfleet in a universe that bent over backwards to posture about how it was somehow beyond class and the chain of command existed solely on merit/aptitude. Functionally it didn't even make a difference-- he was shown to be on a peerage/competence level of everyone else and the title didn't really mean dick.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



It's especially funny that like Dax and Bashir and Kira are all these hot shots in their fields and Worf, Garak, and Odo are these unicorns... and Sisko is literally designated "The Special," but all the marketing likes to make it seem like DS9 is this place for cast-offs.

I mean that's true if you focus solely on Garak, Odo, and Kira... and arguably Worf, but even when DS9 wasn't going to be anything but a Federation nannycam for the Bajor/Cardassian border, it wasn't like Starfleet was sending in the D-List.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



You're not wrong, it's just that most of those things are done away with by the end of the first episode of DS9. Sisko's burnout is functionally gone. Jadzia and Bashir never really get to spend any time being too good/green for their surroundings. Kira never gets to voice her frustration at being punted into the corner by her bosses. It's just funny. I think that's a small part of why Garak and Quark work-- they're both actual cast offs who hosed up at their jobs elsewhere and truly have nowhere else to go.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Sanguinia posted:

Sisko was promoted to a strategic command position after DS9 fell yeah. He was second to Admiral Ross, who was portrayed as one of the top command guys for Starfleet during the war.

That said, I always thought Sisko's strongest skill was his political acumen. The way he handles the constant schemes and crises that plague Bajoran and Cardassian space, how he navigates the 'cold war,' with the Dominion, how he handles the tightrope of his role as Emissary, it all takes a political mind that I would argue even outstrips Picard's.
Definitely. SFDebris described Picard as a 19th Century Model of a Modern Major General, riding in on a horse and riding out just as soon, fixing crisis points. Sisko is a trench worker who sleeps beside his men and insists on being the first over each hill. Both are good and necessary, but different.

If Picard had to deal with Sisko's docket, he'd burn out and corrupt in some really awful way under the pressure that would end-- at best-- with a hasty resignation. Meanwhile Sisko couldn't handle mobile missions, he'd get caught in some conflict bad enough that he wouldn't want to pull out even when all the smart money says that's the better long play. Before you say "he did that all the time with Gamma Quadrant stuff" bear in mind he had DS9 to anchor him. He always had some rats nest to navigate. A flagship like Enterprise is always on the move.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Pick posted:

I like the early seasons best for this reason, because it really does feel more like the band of misfits. A lot of the fan content I enjoy (yes it exists!! buzz off!!) tends to highlight it and that's the most fun.
I don't disagree. Season 4-5 have some pretty rad stuff but anyone who has done any kind-of community building can appreciate the "yeah nearly everything's broken, no one appreciates what we're doing, but we're hanging on and have got each other" camaraderie vibe of the first 2-3 seasons.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Nebakenezzer posted:

It's a theme on the show on how most of the cast members are alienated from their native cultures. Odo, Garak, Quark, Rom, Nog, (Actually all of Quark's family) and Worf are all outcasts, sometimes by choice. As mentioned, Sisko has rather understandable emotional issues and is being given a command post as he seems all burnt out in his previous career tracks. Kira is a small, impossibly angry person at the start of the show, and you get the impression that the Bajorians sent her to the station because 1) She's unquestionably a steadfast guardian of Bajor's interests, 2) Is an experienced terrorist/rebel, and thus excellent if the poo poo goes down, and 3) holy poo poo she's annoying, get her out of here. I mean, I'm pretty sure most of these characters have been formally thrown out of their societies for one reason or another.

Admittedly O'Brien is a champ, as is Dr. Bashier, but their motivation for coming for DS9 is that they like a challenge and want new experiences. (Huh, no wonder they fell into bromance.)

My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



"Or elsewhere."

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



The Romulans or Ferengi would have taken him in a heartbeat if he really felt the Federation didn't have his back, and while it would have been a downgrade even further from being a tailor who is sometimes allowed to do Senior Staff Missions, he could have swung it.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I did really love that scene and it's a great example of the writers understanding how to use the characters to bring the best out of each other.

Pick posted:

garak cant leave ds9 dr bashir is there
Also true.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Yup, and he did it to Kira of all people. It was a nice way to show both that he's an arrogant jag and that for all of her anger she still isn't gonna straight-up murder fools.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



What's funny is that Brooks is pretty subdued at first. It's only toward the end of the series that he's a ham to rival Shatner.

Also it makes a depressing amount of sense how high hopes would be for DS9 only for the first episode to tank early audience engagement. It's not even a bad episode but the Wormhole Aliens, Bashir and Dax being deliberately hard to like, and Quark being an acquired taste... yeah even if it didn't have all the other factors Animal-Mother mentioned it was still not doing itself any favors.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Pick posted:

Sisko comes off as kind of an rear end in a top hat tbh. Very righteously indignant often when it's not appropriate. I get he's pissed about his wife but Picard isn't Locutus and it's basically making GBS threads on a man with a horrific torture experience that occurred in service to the federation. It ~feels cool~ but it's actually cruel and a terrible first impression. Feels very 90s edgy.
Well yeah, Sisko is a macho rear end in a top hat. There was that time the framing and the performances make it unambiguously clear that Sisko is making Quark kiss his dick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiFznzKnrLc

A lot of DS9 is like that-- stuff that fans rationalize as "oh it's Star Trek being pushed to its limit" when really it's Star Trek retrofitted with a more conventional and traditional macho sci-fi show skin. It comes out on-balance better because the Trek trappings prevent machismo from taking over, but there's a reason some nerds consider the dogfights and macho warhawking in DS9 the "true" jumping of the shark for the franchise.

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 12, 2020

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I don't mind the punching but I do find the " Sisko punched Q once and Q never bothered him again" meme a bit of missing the point. On the one hand like yeah it's true, but it's also true that Q found DS9 primitive, backwater, and boring and thus never bothered with it. It's the God-Being equivalent of pissing on the floor-- sure it works in keeping him away but you also just lost a powerful social contact who can Deus Ex Machina your rear end out of jams.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I grew up visiting a single dad starting around '96 and while Sisko is a widow and not a divorcee they really did key in on single dad energy well. There's a moment where Sisko does this really annoying macho fist thing with Jake's face in the first episode and it's the exact kind of self-absorbed crap my dad would do. Even though I didn't watch it during first run DS9 is kind-of nostalgic for me in that it feels like going to visit that crappy apartment on weekends, complete with that mid-90s green tones that showed up in everything.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Sanguinia posted:

Um... the intervention of the wormhole aliens was, in fact, DIRECTLY PROMPTED. By the protagonist. In direct relation to his character arc concerning his relationship to them, to faith and to his role as a spiritual leader.

Ben Sisko, the messiah of the Bajoran religion, spent the majority of the show wrestling with the fact that he knows that the Gods in that religion are simply powerful aliens and that taking on that messianic role is in many ways incompatible with everything he believes and represents. He slowly, in episodes before that intervention, comes to accept that role, the responsibilities, the attachments to Bajor that come with it, and even discovers a measure of real faith in those aliens and the destiny they've laid out for him. Then at the moment where the fate of everything he cares about is to fall to ruin, he turns around and, in his role as their messiah, demands that those Aliens do the same thing they've demanded of him time and again: accept the mantle that's been thrust upon them.

"You want to be Gods? Then be Gods. I need a miracle."

And this is why I'll go to bat for DS9 over BSG any day. I don't give a gently caress that BSG wanted to involve actual religion, and on a micro scale BSG is way more watchable than DS9 ever was, but DS9 actually managed to thread its thematic needles by being organized and having a plan.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



It's admittedly more of a theoretical benefit

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



When Brooks is good he's really good, but toward the back half of the series it gets to be a bit much. I actually feel like a real douchebag saying it because I can tell it was motivated by very very real things in his real life that he must have been forced to deal with regularly as the lead in a nationally syndicated mega-franchise show for 7 years... but the Benny stuff is a bridge too far. It touches on some super real problems that persist to this day and in isolate they're good television, but as part of a Star Trek show I kind-of hate it.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Thing is that Benny Russel episode isn't just about racism or the civil rights struggle but about early science fiction and the struggles it has trying to be progressive, the premise being very much like what caused EC to stop making comics. The other writers in the episode are references to various other sci-fi authors, with O'Brien's being an Asimov stand-in most obviously.

The themes aren't always as unsubtle as Star Trek usually is. But say, take Dukat's rants about the Bajorans, and consider in context he's saying this to an African-American man, who has literally experienced historical eras of segregation and stratification by race and class.
Yeah I get it. I'm saying that the actual Benny stories don't really dovetail with the rest of Star Trek as a whole, even if they're an important work in their own right saying important things.

Sanguinia posted:

This reminds me of the Casino Heist episode where Sisko doesn't want to help because the program whitewashes the racism of the 60s, ranting about how black people could only be laborers or performers and would never be permitted to be customers on the strip. But it turns out that by the year her cites that Sinatra and the Rat Pack had been working with Sammy Davis Jr. on the desegregation in Vegas for like a decade and succeeded in strong-arming a lot of the big hotels and casinos into going along with it.

I always thought that was kind of funny since I heard it. Like maybe by that point in the war Sisko is so frayed that its getting hard to keep all his Enlightened Starfleet Renaissance Man skills strait and his encyclopedic knowledge of history is starting to blur a bit.
Yeah see that didn't bug me because it felt plausible and fit with what I'd expect from Star Trek in a fresh way-- of course a black officer might have a less favorable take on an old holosuite program, even if he did get the time period a bit muddied. Benny literally subsumes the entire premise of the fiction inside of his mind.

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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Peachfart posted:

It's almost like it was a show made in the 90's that was referencing the still ongoing racism of the 90's.
Yeah I'm a super douchebag for not liking it. It's almost like I said that right off.

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