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mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


I’m rewatching ds9 for the first time in years and I cannot overstate how much I love Avery Brooks’ Sisko. It’s like, what if Jack Torrence got just enough therapy and medication before going to the Overlook, so the fact that he is fated to be its caretaker only keeps him at a constant state of low level annoyance that occasionally spikes when something especially stupefying occurs.

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mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Anonymous Zebra posted:

"Commander, you're saying you encountered a strange woman, can you describe her?"

*In extremely Sisko voice* Sisko: She was wearing reeeeddd

SISKO: All work and no jambalaya MAKES. BEN. GO. *slams hands on desk* CRAZY!

OBRIEN: I’ll, erm, get to work on the command level replicators, sir.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Like the Shining saturday morning cartoon where everybody all lives together in the big haunted hotel and there's wacky new guests, ghosts and/or ghost guests every week

If The Shining had come out a decade later Hannah Barbara would have has something airing on Saturday, and Danny would have had a cowardly talking hedge animal sidekick. I would associate the property with the cartoon more strongly than I do the source material.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


PurplieNurplie posted:

I knew DS9 was going to be special during the pilot, where Brooks just delivers the hell out of "we can't just lEaVe her!!!"


I was thinking to myself, "oh man, we get this guy for seven seasons?"

I think I was about 12 when it started and a fan of tng since I was really little, and I ended up hating Sisko at first because he was mean to Picard. I really held a grudge for a while, because he was short with the man who ostensibly killed his wife.

Each time I go back to the series as an adult I love Brooks’ performance a little more. He’s having ridiculous amounts of fun in the role and it’s infectious.

mysterious frankie fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 24, 2020

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Woebin posted:

It's been too long since I properly watched DS9, but I remember thinking that Sisko was a great dad.

Ben was a great dad and was even going to quit Starfleet entirely to focus on his son before he ran into the prophets. I didn’t mean to say I thought the child abuse aspect of Jack Torrence is what reminded me of him; it’s more Jack Nicholson’s intense, almost slapstick, energy that Brooks echos in Sisko and the situation they’re put in (spooky higher powers deciding they’re gonna manage a crumbling structure in the middle of nowhere).

E: Ben not Jake.

mysterious frankie fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jul 24, 2020

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Woebin posted:

Worf's a poo poo dad but would probably be a pretty cool uncle.

Worf seems like a lonely workmate your mom invites to holidays and has everyone call uncle. And he has maybe the coolest finished basement.

WORF: this is my bat’leth. It was passed down through my family for generations and is one of the few things my ex wife didn’t get in the settlement.
ME: wow.
WORF: this is a Targ skin. I acquired it after the divorce, so my ex wife can’t steal from me.
ME: neat
WORF: like she did 15 years of my life
ME: oh
WORF: and this is my train set. I named the mountain town Allman Brothers Town. I named it after the Allman Brothers Band. The Gagh they serve there is very flavorful.
ME: wow
WORF: would you like to play computer games now?
ME: do you have Duke Nukem 3D?
WORF: I have all the computer games.
ME: ...I used to want to be an archeologist when I grow up, but now I want to be you.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Baudolino posted:

If we see Bajor again in new trek media i hope it`s still a independent world and gripped with intense Sisko worship obsessed with guessing the day of his return. The traditonal faith focused on the prophets have been almost completely abanoned. No one cares about the Vedeks anymore, now it`s all about the emissary`s deacons who have built up a parallell organization.

Sectarian violence over whether Sisko wants you to eat jambalaya, gumbo or a baseball on his holy days.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cerv posted:

really we should be more worried about the rest of the cast who didn't have a crush on Garak 😍
what's wrong with them?

Bashir is the only one in the cast thirsty enough for novel distraction to find Garak intriguing. Dax maybe would too if she wasn’t old enough to be over nearly everything.

Bashir to me is so interesting because of how desperate he is to forge genuine relationships with all these people and why. Like, he’s the most gifted person there, but he also knows he’s lived his entire life on cheat mode and it wasn’t even his choice. He perceives his workmates as more interesting and deserving of attention because no one hotwired their genes to make them high performing; they had to work their asses off to get where they are and that gives them character. Most of them find his attention to be obnoxious at worst, patronizing and naive at best. Except Garak. Garak seems to like him, but he’s also just withholding enough to create a mystery. Even better than love, Garak offers a distraction from his sense of being made an outsider by his parents who configured and purchased him like one does an expensive computer.

This awareness makes him the one character closest to realizing he is a written fiction, with all the existential woe attendant to that fact.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Pick posted:

Might be nice also to hang out with someone who probably doesn't even have a frame of reference for the eugenics wars

but definitely does understand demanding parents lol

Yeah it had to be a relief to know that Garak, if he found out, would consider Bashir’s origins extremely interesting, and probably say something compellingly cryptic about it. Only person on the ship he could be sure wouldn’t turn him in, who also seems to genuinely enjoy his company.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cerv posted:

that's an interesting thought considering what happened to Sisko with the Benny Russell stuff.

Can you expand on that? I’m only near the end of season two in my rewatch, so I haven’t seen Far Beyond The Stars in what has to have been 10-12 years. I remember the basic plot, but not enough to make a meaningful reply.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Cerv posted:

so FBTS has a very explicit on the nose take on it with the character of Sisko being confronted with the idea that he and everything in his life are a work of fiction. so he has this big experience of that existential woe you mention but it comes and goes wrapped up in 45 minutes. although it would be revisited to less success in one later s7 episode I forget the name of and briefly in What You Leave Behind, it wasn't a part of his character for most of the show up until then and doesn't really come across in the rest of s6/7.

what you said about Bashir isn't a way I'd thought about his character before but it seems apt.
there's never an explicit moment of him openly addressing that existential question (unlike the final scene of FBTS with Sisko straight up saying "but what if we are the dream" to Kira). but I can see it now timing into his analytical and awkward outsider traits, and how he loved to play a role in holodeck fiction.

so while you said he was closest to realising he's fiction, my first thought was "but Sisko had that big moment of stating that question aloud surely that's closer".
but since Sisko rejects the idea and it doesn't inform his whole character it's not really close is it.

I'm definitely babbling now. kinds of grasping at the idea of what I meant to say but not quite getting it straight.


also it's been years since I've watch FTBS and think I might stick it on tonight. it's good TV.

I know what you mean when you talk about grasping for adequate expression. I guess a difference is that Sisko starts & ends as an “insider”. He’s been damaged by events in his life before the events of the show and he ultimately accepts this... I dunno, contract of fate being offered by the prophets, but at all times he’s integrated enough into his world to lose himself in the sense of belonging to the thing he’s part of. He can always plausibly deny fully accepting his instrumentality; his arc vis a vis the prophets is an extended negotiation over the terms of their partnership.

Bashir, by dint of needing to hide his origins since childhood and the emotional/intellectual effect of being who he is, always remains on the periphery of the narrative he exists in and has always borne the assurance that he is a commodity made by others to achieve a goal, minus the protections that a similar character, Data, has as a being lacking emotion and possessing a publicly known and accepted identity as a lovable curiosity. His arc is one of making inroads from the outside to the inside; the distracting sense of belonging to a moment that is natural to Sisko is a prize to be won for Bashir.

I dunno. This is all just off the cuff thinking so I dont know if it has legs.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


This time around watching ds9 makes me want Avery Brooks to play Lorq von Ray in a film adaptation of Nova.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


I was just thinking about the TNG episode where they play poker with the great scientific thinkers of history and Stephen Hawking is there, still in the chair. Like, I understand why it had to be that way if they wanted to let the professor be on the show(the production team would need to cure ALS), but in universe it still means they used a piece of technology so advanced that it can summon into existence anything in any permutation, to bring a man back to life with his full range of mental faculties, while making the deliberate choice to leave him a human pretzel hooked to a Speak & Spell.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Yeah, that's kind of a ridiculous complaint. If they brought back FDR should he have been doing backflips?

Yes? You cast a level 9 science magic spell to summon a version of someone who in life suffered from a horrible degenerative illness with the illness fully in effect for the sake of, what, verisimilitude?

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

What is the point of the exercise if not to see and experience them as they were?

Otherwise why not just simulate Hawkings mind in the body of a Gorilla with a rocket launcher?

Weird extrapolation. Why not create a Hawkings that can use his hands to play poker or, say, itch his nose=why not just make him a monkey wrought from cheese? Why not make him the poker table?

If a vital part of the experience is temporarily resurrecting a crippled man with accurate conditions they shouldn’t have made him with the little robotic poker arm. They should have also generated PhD candidates that hover around him, leaning close to receive his muttered poker instructions, then playing the cards for him. Otherwise, what’s the point of the exercise, apparently.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Also dumb. Hovering PhD candidates are neither part of Hawkings body nor his mind. They are not him.

In life Hawking’s chair never had a robotic arm that allowed him to independently receive, arrange, then present cards to the table. By dint of its inclusion the entire point of the game is, by your rules, rendered meaningless. Anarchy has been loosed upon Friday night poker.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


oh but seriously I posted:

his is the only opinion which matters

Not when you’re making a clone of him for funsies. Actually respecting him would mean not creating a fake Hawking to go on adventures with. Once you’ve crossed that bridge, of making an accurate simulation of a real person and putting them in situations for your pleasure without their explicit consent, your actions have shown a fundamental selfishness. So the only question that remains is what does how you remake them say about you. Imo, making a fully ALS’d Hawking kinda says you lack basic empathy. Bring him back before his illness rendered him unable to perform basic functions unaided. Why is that specific Hawkings preferable? Because you enjoy the aesthetic of this specific chairbound man?

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Having the robotic arm attachment so it can move some chips around for the convenience of the game doesn't change who he is. Him being able to stand and walk and move them with own arms would. It would not represent the same person.

We don’t see him press buttons to manipulate the arm. So is he controlling it with his mind? Sounds like they gave Hawkings telekinesis, or maybe a neurological implant that allowed him to control the arm. This is unacceptable. Only way to ensure the game is a meaningful experience is to let him watch the game as other people play.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Why would we see this? By the time he participated in this episode he had already lost the use of his hands and used the movement of muscles in his cheek to interface with a computer.

We need hard, inarguable evidence he is using his cheek to control the arm, in order to confirm that the amount of variation from source is sufficiently below tolerance level so as to remain Meaningful. If we don’t have confirmation, why not make him Santa Claus, or a cloud of pollen suspended in the air? It’s chaos!
—-
Also, humorous pedantry aside, it’s kinda lol to imagine Geordi sitting at a terminal, programming himself up a Hawking and specifically writing in a mechanical arm with cheek controls, then making changes to Hawkings brain so he’d know how to use it, maybe arguing with a future version of me on the internet about the decision.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

The entire holodeck simulation is about Data. The characters being simulated are not actually alive, so why would their wants, desires or dignity play any factor in Data's decision to create a simulation that accurately represents what they were like in real life?

IMO Data obviously needs stricter observation and restriction of duties that could impact the wellbeing of the crew. There’s a careless darkness in him evidenced by this almost accurate, but slightly augmented for convenience, Hawking.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Geordi would have programmed Hawkins to fall in love with him.

HAWKING: why. do. I. have. big. rocking. knockers.

GEORDI: well, I read an interesting article about... think Geordi... physiolo...

HAWKING: not. that. I’m. complaining. aaaaaaaaawoooooooga.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

GEORDI: Professor, can you help me calculate the alpha-wave transwarp injector ratio?

HAWKING: does. that. visor. get. you. mad. pussy?

GEORDI: Woah! Professor, that's not something I really want to talk about.

HAWKING: i. would. be. getting. it. wet. all. the. time.

GEORDI: Uh ok, can we stick to the calculations please?

HAWKING: i. see. still. a. virgin.

Lol

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Woah there! You think Star Fleet is some kind of military operation?? We're just "explorers", that's all!

It’s not military so long as you put the ability to decimate entire solar systems inside an outwardly innocuous, inviting shell that still intimates the ability to commit great violence. So basically just hot glue a Live Laugh Love wall decor thing to the front of the visor and you can stick any sort of ordnance in it, no problem.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


BYSTANDER: did that man just fire an isokinetic blast from his glasses?
ADMIRAL: Not glasses. “Diplomatic Face Gear” We painted them beige.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Two weeks ago the Federation was almost taken over by space worms and no one followed up on the sos their leader sent home before dying. Last week the omnipotent prankster who has a crush on bothering the exceptionally repressed Sir Joseph Porter rear end baldo we made captain of our flagship vessel violently introduced known occupied space to a group of cyborgs that are very interested in having us join their tech startup. But, yeah, turbonerd’s laser head is my main concern, definitely.

Honestly, living in the Trek murderverse, I’d be pretty ok with someone I trust being near me & packing at all times.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


McSpanky posted:

what the gently caress is going on in here

Very important conversations. The kinds that shape nations, and make people realize you’re smart and cool.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

The Federations politicking skills are basically on par with our current presidential administration. Utterly clueless and incompetent.


The Federation seems more like the EU; so long as it’s not being confronted with any kind of threat it does fine & acts smug about how enlightened it is compared to all the other poor benighted people who have not yet been blessed with unlimited holiday time to be obnoxious degenerates abroad; but the minute things get rough everyone gets lovely. Still able to keep it together, insofar as people and governments still function well enough to react to easy mode poo poo that shouldn’t be able to kill a people and their massive economy *cough*corona*cough*

America is more like the Cardassians. Smug about how awful our culture is, predatory as poo poo, hosed up legal system, and kanar looks like straight up karo syrup which lines up with where our soda consumption is going. Once our empire finishes crumbling we’d totally team up with the closest Dominion analogue- ideological differences be damned- just to get a taste of that sweet, sweet global domination again.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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DrBouvenstein posted:

The Federation secretly LOVES genocide.

You've got the aforementioned virus they want to unleash on The Founders, the TNG crew wanted to send Hugh back to The Borg, hoping his sense of individuality would destroy them from within, and when Future Janeway comes back everyone is a-ok with her infecting The Collective with a horrible neurovirus that severs the link to most of them.

BYSTANDER: you can’t just disappear dissidents to section 31 black sites!
ADMIRAL: I’ll tell you what I told that guy who saw the diplomatic head gear; if you paint it beige it’s actually good. Those are beige sites. Also the torture diplomacy rooms have rounded edges.
—-
Rewatching ds9 and seeing all the civilian clothes’ crazy cuts and patterns reminded me of what my grandma would sew. Looks like camouflage jumpers for going to war in a Bed Bath & Beyond’s curtain aisle. That might be the most nostalgic part of the of the rewatch.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

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Lead out in cuffs posted:

The Siskos start sporting some rad-as-gently caress 90s Afropolitan fashion somewhere around the middle of the series.

Legit psyched to see.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Lead out in cuffs posted:

The Dominion is weird in that they don't seem to have an industrial base, supply chains, trade, or any kind of centralization, yet somehow they can spew out warships. They claim the whole Gamma Quadrant as theirs, yet a bunch of species there haven't even heard of them.

Also they don't immediately announce themselves for years after alien ships start spewing through the wormhole and wandering around their claimed space. If the same thing had happened in the middle of Federation (or Romulan/Klingon/Cardassian/etc) space, there would have been starships dispatched to greet them immediately.

I'm pretty sure a lot of this was because the writers and producers only deciding the Dominion should exist a whole season after they came up with the wormhole, but it kinda makes for some weird/janky worldbuilding.

My understanding/guess is that the core three Dominion races stay pretty quiet unless they want something, then send Vorta to client cultures and say “spin up your factories, make a bunch of these ships/weapons. Jem’Hadar will be by to get them in X time.” They aren’t interesting in proselytizing and would rather keep a minimum number of races/planets under control to achieve their goals. Communication between cultures in Dominion space is likely intentionally disrupted because that serves the Dominion, since good information flow could lead to competing organizations forming explicitly to stop an organization that leverages races like they purely material infrastructure. Maybe your Dominion planets know about each other, have some communication but even that might be intentionally limited. Anyone you haven’t bothered incorporating doesn’t need to know poo poo, unless they try to gently caress with your or your stuff, and then they either get wiped out or incorporated, and now operate under the same communication rules as the rest of your asset races do.

I think the alpha quadrant spurned them to war just by popping out of the wormhole. Competing organizations are suddenly just... there, disturbing the balance of power by making bold declarative statements about who they are and what they do, instead of manipulating quietly, like you’re* supposed to.

*and by “you’re” I mean us. The Dominion. You guys are something else.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


McSpanky posted:

The Dominion: hi, we haven't marked any claimed territory or even made you aware of our existence until now but uh, this is all our stuff and also we just murdered a bunch of unarmed civilians, go away now kthxbye

Yeah would be a real stretch to say the Dominion was 100% justified in their aggression, based on the way they manage systems under their control in the quadrant. You can’t build an empire with secrecy and infojamming as its base and then be shocked when someone new shows up and starts touching all your stuff, as if they didn’t know it was your stuff.

Then again, they’ve been alone doing things their way for quite a while, so you can’t blame them for having diplomatic and administrative tendencies that seem alien to the Federation. But it’s hard to make them out as injured parties; more like extremely startled parties with methods of cohabitation that have thus far been untested by interaction outside of the system.

E: then THEN again they did find out the Dominion was a thing pretty early on and Quark had gotten some info from that wine merchant which indicated the Dominion leadership weren’t super big on chatting, and were a bit bigger on being left alone, so at that point they could have just restricted all traffic both ways in the wormhole and called it a day. “Ok, we know they’re there and they don’t want to talk to us. Blockade the shortcut to their territory and if the ever want to start diplomatic proceedings, we start diplomatic proceedings.” It’d definitely cause issues in the alpha quadrant, what with so many people hungry to start exploiting this new resource, but whatcha gonna do?

EE: then THEN then again, how could the entire Federation take action based on the hearsay of a rando Ferengi salesman? I think my ears are bleeding.

mysterious frankie fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Aug 18, 2020

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Barudak posted:

Finally, its time for a gritty reboot of DS9 where it shoots a missile barrage once an episode and the captain says gently caress

Sisko looks on with horror as the camera pans over a 4K cgi bajoran concentration camp.

He says the C word.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


I like how, in Past Tense, O’Brien quickly develops an accurate technique for using a transporter pad & the waste product of Defiant to time travel then a few episodes later, in Visionary, after Bashir has finished busting his rear end to save him, he’s like “no, use the delta radiation five hour time jump technique to do it. The one that will probably kill me.” Dude is super dedicated to dying.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Actually says something that Quark genuinely likes Jake and considers him more like what he wishes Nog was.

Everybody likes Jake. He’s one of the few characters in all of Star Trek- and I mean all of the shows- that doesn’t appear to have been programmed with a career path at birth, which I imagine makes him the most relaxing person to spend time with in the quadrant. Before him the most down to earth failson guy was Wesley, the genius level homeschool burnout who left the Academy and pursued his backup career, being a minor dimension traveling deity.

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mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Lead out in cuffs posted:

I mean, Nog is very much a failson in the eyes of his uncle and his culture.

Nog’s the son of a single father who is pretty low in Ferengi society (space station engineer, former barback for his punchline of a brother), who works his rear end of to become the first of his race to enter Starfleet.

Jake by comparison is a child of privilege who’s entered into a period of drifting. He’s the son of a famous and successful Starfleet officer/Bajoran cultural figure who turned down gift wrapped education opportunities both with Starfleet and Pennington, seems to mainly hang out in bars, and at best is infrequently published as a writer and reporter. Dude’s a major loser, but he’s a pleasant, carefree loser in a galaxy of high strung strivers and I imagine that’s a breath of fresh air.

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