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Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

at least he could gently caress ee'char

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I can only dream of a slum like that!

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost


I've always been extremely angry that the spider is not on deep space nine

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

seriously, o'brien has a far longer memory of his time with ee'char than his wife.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

There are only like 4 human characters to choose from and I think they were just struggling to find something for Franklin to DO.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

mind the walrus posted:

You're not wrong, it's just that most of those things are done away with by the end of the first episode of DS9. Sisko's burnout is functionally gone. Jadzia and Bashir never really get to spend any time being too good/green for their surroundings. Kira never gets to voice her frustration at being punted into the corner by her bosses. It's just funny. I think that's a small part of why Garak and Quark work-- they're both actual cast offs who hosed up at their jobs elsewhere and truly have nowhere else to go.

I like the early seasons best for this reason, because it really does feel more like the band of misfits. A lot of the fan content I enjoy (yes it exists!! buzz off!!) tends to highlight it and that's the most fun.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost


From this, we can tragically infer that Kira ate Christina.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

mind the walrus posted:

My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf.

garak cant leave ds9 dr bashir is there

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I don't like Avery Brooks's performance as it fits in with the rest of the cast. He's not a bad actor but I think he's from a completely different acting school and it's jarring. Some pushback against Sisko was pure racism but some of it was legitimately stage acting among TV actors.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

also the pilot is really really bad

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Sisko comes off as kind of an rear end in a top hat tbh. Very righteously indignant often when it's not appropriate. I get he's pissed about his wife but Picard isn't Locutus and it's basically making GBS threads on a man with a horrific torture experience that occurred in service to the federation. It ~feels cool~ but it's actually cruel and a terrible first impression. Feels very 90s edgy.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I actually do find the focus on a huge war (while unsuccessfully egregiously mimicking what Babylon 5* was doing) a huge negative turn for Trek.

*Not to mention in B5 the literal resolution is pointing out fighting a war loving sucks poo poo

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Also a lot of fans like Sisko punching Q in the face but I just think it's stupid

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

It's completely undercut multiple times by things like the unprompted intervention of the wormhole aliens.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Verviticus posted:

it would probably be really hard to reconcile Q with the prophets honestly

I think instead of get rid of Q, they should just have pretended he didn't exist. That's what they did for the Borg (thank god).

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Dreylad posted:

I watched What You Leave Behind and man Garak gets a pretty brutal ending.

fun fact: he is physically assaulted by every major crewmember except jadzia

tbh like literally not a single good thing happens to him in the entire show.


But on that note, that final scene in the final episode was cut from the initial airing, despite him being a very popular character. so if you were watching it live the first time he basically just disappears.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost


it's bizarre to have Ezri be a counselor, just based on the balance of the show, because both Vic and Quark already fill that function.

tbh, Ezri should have left because she's trill and been like 'you're all nice but I'm off to my next life, like I'm supposed to' and then we get a Federation idealist, since once they take the stupid gmo route with Bashir he's no longer that character. but maybe not an optimist. I'd have liked to have seen a female Vulcan, perhaps, who sees the opportunities inherent in the war.

This is because though sisko loves 2 bitch about the federation (half of ds9 is casting shade at tng), the federation the show is sniping at becomes increasingly distant as tng and its characters/events become further separated. it would have helped the show a lot to have a very standard Starfleet character to bounce things off of, and to further show when she's actually right (thematically, that the federation is right)

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Aglet56 posted:

i like ezri a lot as a character but this also sounds pretty good

ezri is a big influence imo on the character of marcy in Travelers. both are kind of classic sci-fi explorations of the impact of memory on personhood

I think she's a perfectly good character but I also think that she's not as helpful as another type of character would've been, and I actually do respect the point that they're trying to make with the Trill, and I do sort of like the episodes where an alien makes an alien decision and the audience is supposed to sort of think about it for a while. They're sorry that she's gone, it feels like she should be able to stay, but that's not how our culture works and she's confident with the decision moving forward

I would've still kept her for a while, but maybe send her off in a two-parter about a third of the way through the season

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I feel like he got more characterization than she did half the time

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

like suddenly jadzia was going to have something important to do

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

would have been a nice fuckin change

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

McSpanky posted:

O'Brien's own wedding episode counts

haha

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

star trek afterlife is a big party and, im told, kirk and spock are kissing there

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It's really interesting how Garak is one of the recurring lizard-brain Cardassians and a ruthless, amoral spymaster, but almost all of his episodes and main arcs are specifically about his emotional vulnerability. Feels like it brings home the theme that Cardassians are people like anyone else, and their society doesn't value the care a person needs to function properly, while ironically the Federation and Bajoran crew are the ones who care about Garak's wellbeing and intervene when he's having a breakdown.

what's especially interesting is this is exactly a weakness because he gets used and then discarded by the federation also. like viewed on its own, his storyline is not especially gratifying

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

in camp 371 he calls out sentiment as a weakness and though the show is like, implying that he's wrong (obviously), the show itself fails to make it an incorrect assessment from his point of view, particularly from that point forward

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I think the point is more his failure to establish connections and emotional stability is what makes it a weakness from his POV.


I just think there was a huge divide between what the show thought it was doing, and often what it was doing

for example, cardassia flips at the last moment to be on the "right side" and clearly that was the wrong move since the federation sure as hell wasn't going to orbitally bombard cardassia prime like the dominion did? and the war was a done deal anyway. so "punish the cardassians" was definitely a box they decided they needed to check, but it ends up being a punishment for a rare decision to do the right thing. it's loving weird.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

On a lighter note: Nog's send-off party with him auctioning off his childhood belongings is played like just another cynical Ferengi thing, but looking at things like Asian weddings and graduation parties, it strikes me like a lot of rituals being a socially acceptable way to give a young person money to launch their life without it appearing as charity. Not like most of his material goods are going to be worth much, especially with replicators being a thing.

jadzia openly buys bashir some of nog's crusty old porn because she is a great friend

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Sanguinia posted:

I thought it was OK as a one-sided thing. Younger people being enamored with older people isn't exactly a rarity in real life, and Garrak generally handled it better than most TV characters in the 90s would have, ie by NOT encouraging her or reciprocating her feelings. Even after she died his thought was to wonder WHY she loved him rather than to reciprocate. He did have that line about how being around her made his crappy life not feel so bad, but you don't HAVE to interpret that in romantic terms.

Particularly because I don't think it's entirely crazy to want to have some interaction with the only other member of your species (1/2) who isn't actively hostile to you. They make a point that Cardassians are vain and xenophobic so exile probably super-sucks on those grounds. She's got a crush on him and yeah, so what? He doesn't reciprocate. It's still handled badly on the show, and it could've been handled better, but I don't think it really changes anything.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Joking about shipping Garak with Bashir raises a good point: was there even one LGBTQ character in DS9?

yes. garak and bashir. thanks.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Peachfart posted:

Well, it was the 90's, so not explicitly. But Garak comes closer than nearly anyone else on TV at the time.

he's unambiguously coded as such*, and I'd argue that it's half the point, since ds9 took monolithic cultures from tng and add characters that were supposed to be 180s of that (like on purpose, as part of the way they addressed Trek generally and tng specifically). rom. nog. klingon chef. martok. party time science officer. cardassians in tng were militaristic hardasses, so to have one who is a fop is their way to poke at that.

someone always loves to come in and be like "oh it's very REGRESSIVE of you to assume just because he talks about accessorizing and tucks his napkin into his collar he's supposed to be homersexual " to which i can only say, don't be dense. obviously media communicates concepts in ways other than having the characters constantly announce "GOOD MORNING IM GAY" like some sort of early 2010s webcomic


*(and the writers have said it was their intention, though, Behr, I think, has a revisionist view of ds9 times, and the actor said it's what he was going for)

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

feel free to hash it out in the "I don't find Kirk/Spock compelling" thread because, they're watermelon jelly bean.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Might be nice also to hang out with someone who probably doesn't even have a frame of reference for the eugenics wars

but definitely does understand demanding parents lol

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

mysterious frankie posted:

Yeah it had to be a relief to know that Garak, if he found out, would consider Bashir’s origins extremely interesting, and probably say something compellingly cryptic about it. Only person on the ship he could be sure wouldn’t turn him in, who also seems to genuinely enjoy his company.

Yep. He's his first friend on the station.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Yep. I'm also struggling to think of a non-heternormative relationship (for the current host) of either Jadzia's or Kurzon's. Hell, even Odo, who comes from a race for which sexual dimorphism is meaningless, only hooks up with femme-presenting aliens.

That depends on how you interpret him having goo intercourse with other changelings, because he does have that form of interaction with a male presenting changeling.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Polaron posted:

I mean, there was the one that prompted the whole discussion with Jadzia, where she was 100% ready to go off with her previous host's ex-wife and the gender wasn't the issue for anyone involved, it was the fact that she was the ex of a previous host.

Jadzia also tells Pel to try to make a pass at Quark before she knows that Pel is female (and expresses surprise when she finds out that Pel is female).

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Schadenboner posted:

I'll be honest and say that the whole "former hosts" thing (and the cortical stacks thing in A Memory Called Empire) is as gently caress for me, sexually and cognitively?

Once we learn Curzon was lusting after Jadzia and nearly ruined her life over it until he manipulated events (without her knowledge of either aspect) to get access to her body via the Dax organism, ......... good work Star Trek

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Woebin posted:

I always had the feeling that many of the people working on DS9 wanted to go more explicitly queer but that someone higher up wouldn't allow it. I blame Rick Berman.

That's easy to do, although it would certainly have been more than one person. That said, gently caress Rick Berman very much. However, I strongly contend that it is bigoted to assume that a character is automatically canonically straight unless you see them engaging in explicit homosexual activity. It's like saying that if an anonymous writer in a story isn't explicitly female, by default they are canonically male. (Or that assumption about posters!) There are certainly some where I think the burden of proof would be higher or that you might credibly feel that it's not what the author was going for, but where the burden of proof has been set I think it's indicative of a belief that LGBT behavior is incredibly abnormal. Where it isn't particularly.

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I mean, some historians still contend Frederick the Great wasn't gay. The guy who wrote, "Fortune has it in for me; she is a woman, and I am not that way inclined."

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Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

This all reminds me that DS9 was just a soap opera with Star Trek skin.

y

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