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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Remember the time when O'Brien literally died and was replaced by a time-duplicate from a timeline where DS9 was blown the gently caress up

Also when he got Bashir to learn alien poker-roulette to break Quark's winning streak but all for nought as Quark psyches Bashir into losing

And on Earth a changeling spy shows up as O'Brien right in front of Sisko and openly trolls the poo poo out of him

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Angepain posted:

keiko is clearly trying to set them up so they can form a deep and wholesome three-way relationship but they don't catch her signals and everyone misses out. that bajoran guy kira had the hots for was a dipshit anyway forget him. in this 90,000-word fanfic i will

Keiko did take the whole thing in stride. I do wonder if she was just like 'gently caress yes, I don't have to go through THAT all over again', especially considering the circumstances of her first child.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Eh, it's a bit of a weird thing in the context of US racial and drug politics. Though I dunno if drug user stereotypes were as developed then as they are now, where using stimulants to deal with overwork is usually a white person thing, even back to moms stealing their kids' Ritalin. (and I'm wondering how how much of the ritalin overprescription craze was due to abuse of it, similar to opiates now) And it's an especially common thing with doctors in particular, since they can prescribe themselves. (see House about a decade later... and, of all things, a Transformers Prime episode)

Of course, in the 80s and 90s most Very Special Episodes would treat all drugs interchangeably and usually laughably inaccurately, which tended to completely undermine the message. Funny thing is that episodes where a fictional drug or analogous addictive habit is used to tend to actually come off better, since they're internally consisent, and sometimes even actually go into the motivations as to why the character uses it, the positive and negative effects it has on them, and since it's often a main character using it they can be treated sympathetically rather than becoming an irredeemable monster or dying.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




IIRC weren't they in the Gamma Quadrant? Possibly a Dominion world?

The actual circumstances of the mind-sentence weren't the emphasis, mind, and the episode made that clear.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Given it's established earlier on with Worf's brother that they do have memory wipe technology... but expecting a deus ex machina to carry over between episodes in Star Trek is silly.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




They really wanted to use the NCO/officer dynamic for jokes, that's about it.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Verviticus posted:

they talk about how obrien is a combat superstar and probably insanely good at leading ppl into fights and then they give command of the defiant to literally anyone but him despite using his expert testimony as a theoretical defiant commander to make worf look bad (which is easy to do)

Smiley actually had Sisko command the mirror Defiant mind.

Thing is O'Brien basically got the Defiant from a barely functional prototype to a sleek killing machine, I'd say his work is done

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I think it kinda helps to draw a distinction given a Starfleet Officer is meant to have a massively rounded skillset of science, engineering, diplomacy, medicine, history, culture and combat, but you still need to fill the crew with people who can do stuff like botany, engineering and other specialties without having a full on academy course.

Nog had an accelerated course given it was wartime, but I like the idea that given he came back with a solid understanding of The Great Material Continuum while earlier he had to have Jake teach him about commodity trading, that his course included studying his own culture and gave him a new perspective on it. (especially since aside from briefly in Keiko's school he hadn't really had much formal education til then)

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Verviticus posted:

basically the entire cast of ds9 is supercompetent at their respective fields except worf and sisko which i guess is the opposite of tng where i feel like picard was the superhuman and everyone else was alright, except worf

sisko is my favourite captain but whatever his skills other than leadership are, they arent really used other than him cooking, beating poo poo up and occasionally talking about ship design

Sisko came up on the engineering track and worked on the Defiant before it was mothballed. Everyone forgets the episode where he does a Space Kon Tiki with the Bajoran solar sail ship he built himself. Also that Smiley tapped him to finish the ISS Defiant since they ran into the same problems the prototype had.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




On paper, Jadzia and Bashir are fresh out of the academy, and Jadzia is literally just Joined. Kira was basically middle management as resistance fighters go, which albeit still makes her a badass, and given the job because the Provisional Government wanted her to stop yelling at them all the time. (Joke's on them, she has a phone) Sisko is a decorated officer on paper but he's also a burnout struggling with the trauma of losing his wife and wanting a quiet post to raise his son on. O'Brien is the experienced one, and he specifically says he transferred because he was bored on the Enterprise because everything worked too well. Worf shows up later when the importance of DS9 is well established, and his skillset is required.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Obligatory:

https://www.somethingawful.com/news/blue-stripe-life-4/

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




There is that episode that's basically space trench warfare and Sisko insists on holding the line personally for the troops who haven't been relieved in months. The one with the guy with the necklace of Ketracel-white nozzles, where Nog gets his leg shot off.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mind the walrus posted:

My point is less that they were/weren't alienated, and most that the marketing plays up DS9 as this roster of incompetents no one really wanted, when really most-if-not-all of them could find excellent gigs in Starfleet or elsewhere without that much trouble, even Quark, Odo, Nog, Garak, and Worf.

Kind of the whole point with the Ferengi arcs is that Rom's skills are explicitly devalued by the Ferengi, and he's failed miserably at the role society pushed him into- and Nog has seen this, and he knows his father has talents and that the Ferengi see them as nothing more than a resource to be exploited. Quark on the other hand would be doing well by business standards but traditional Ferengi hate him, more than he seems to realise, because he makes compromises to function in galactic society. It's even mentioned later that the rest of the quadrant is sick of the Ferengi's poo poo so they're looking for new customers in the Gamma Quadrant who haven't heard of them.

It's spelled out pretty clearly in the ep where Quark becomes an arms dealer- he's making money hand over fist, but DS9 command makes it clear they are looking for the first opportunity to kick him out til he makes a clean break with the business. And then when the FCA takes his license and assets the station crew find pretence to replace them and get his business started back up because they like having him around. Quark makes a big show of being a traditional Ferengi but his actions and behaviour indicate he really isn't, and actual traditional Ferengi hate him- of course, the irony is by the end the Ferengi have made radical social change for the same reasons as Quark, to start doing business more honestly because everyone already doesn't trust them, and Quark is left as a holdout that's traditionalist in comparison.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




My mouth isn't full of blood, it's victory wine

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sisko's role is an interesting one, more a Moses figure than a Jesus really. He's basically a go-between, handling negotiations between the Bajorans, the Prophets and the Federation, and having to navigate the agendas, needs and responsibilities of all three. (and then some)

DS9 definitely goes into how intrigue and diplomacy can be much more interesting and fun than war, which is usually banal and horrific. Quark using Ferengi bargaining philosophy and game theory applied to diplomatic negotiation is interesting, and he takes it to the point of bargaining with the Prophets when necessary. The overall idea is testing the Federation and other cultures' ideals, and the ones that win out are the long-term ones, while the shortsightedly belligerent pay dearly for their mistakes.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Lemniscate Blue posted:

I'm trying and failing to think of a time Q got anybody out of a jam he didn't get them into in the first place.

There was the bit where Picard was having a bit of a crisis and Q basically gave him an Its A Wonderful Life treatment over if he hadn't gotten stabbed through the heart in that bar fight, and followed Picard's request that it wouldn't involve changing the timeline for anyone else in major ways but just examining his own life.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Thing is that Benny Russel episode isn't just about racism or the civil rights struggle but about early science fiction and the struggles it has trying to be progressive, the premise being very much like what caused EC to stop making comics. The other writers in the episode are references to various other sci-fi authors, with O'Brien's being an Asimov stand-in most obviously.

The themes aren't always as unsubtle as Star Trek usually is. But say, take Dukat's rants about the Bajorans, and consider in context he's saying this to an African-American man, who has literally experienced historical eras of segregation and stratification by race and class.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Vic is a better therapist than the actual therapist.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I did like the Ezri episodes with the serial killer and her messed up family, though.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Honestly I feel it'd be a bit weird if they established everything about the Trill and didn't have the symbiote passed on to a new host at some point. They kinda fumbled on establishing that with Curzon and Jadzia since we didn't see enough of Curzon to get a feel for what the differences were.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Kinda funny that Worf gets to gently caress up a lot but also be badass as contractually obligated

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Tulip posted:

It kind of bleeds through the fiction barrier that it's contractually obligated and thus becomes substantially more comical and lame.

I actually thought it was a good thing; he gets to be badass and do cool stuff but also make mistakes and have to make hard decisions- the whole point of the thing with Kurn is that they were at a total cultural impasse and had to take a third option because neither solution was acceptable (and arguably, it's giving a depressed, homeless and suicidal person a treatment that will allow them to get on with their life) and the mission with Jadzia is an absolutely understandable position for someone who's very protective of his family, and Sisko admits that it was a bad choice to send a married couple on such a crucial mission. He also just generally really fits into DS9 as someone caught between the pointy ends of two very different cultures.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Don't come a'knockin if the Defiant's a'rockin

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Always thought of a joke where Quark is worried about being trapped in the Vault of Eternal Destitution and a Klingon says not to worry, they'll round up some buddies from Stovokor and bust them out.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sanguinia posted:

Hijack the Barge of the Dead and sail that mother strait down the Great Material Continuum!

These are the voyages of the Barge of the Dead. Our eternal mission: to seek out new afterlives of new civilisations. To boldly go where no ghost has gone before.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sanguinia posted:

Space Ghost: The Next Generation

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




It's really interesting how Garak is one of the recurring lizard-brain Cardassians and a ruthless, amoral spymaster, but almost all of his episodes and main arcs are specifically about his emotional vulnerability. Feels like it brings home the theme that Cardassians are people like anyone else, and their society doesn't value the care a person needs to function properly, while ironically the Federation and Bajoran crew are the ones who care about Garak's wellbeing and intervene when he's having a breakdown.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I think the point is more his failure to establish connections and emotional stability is what makes it a weakness from his POV.

And I think it might be Vorta more simply aren't taught/programmed anything about aesthetic sense at all, and having very weak senses just compounds that. It comes to mind that it actually makes perfect sense that Weyoun takes to Dabo- gambling is the only vice he's capable of enjoying.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




It's a tricky thing, since by implication it doesn't seem out of character for the Founders to 'reward' a species that showed them immediate kindness in a way that makes sure their species survives as long as the Dominion does, and by making them useful- since the takeaway from that experience for the Founders may have been that the species is clearly tractable and social.

Would go with how the alliance with the Breen goes much better to the point where they're given Cardassian worlds, and the Tosk is iirc outright stated in some EU materials to be basically a variant Jem'Hadar, or a species given similar traits (not needing food, great strength and inbuilt invisibility) to act as ideal game for a well-behaved subservient species. The Dominion has carrots and sticks, and it's clear they have a creative streak in their genetic engineering, given how horrifically sadistic the engineered plague was.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




One EU book apparently had the Changelings be a result of their own genetic engineering, which I think would make sense.

I still reckon that given their shapeshifting seems to have no upper limit, and Laas could do FTL travel on his own by imitating a space creature, that most Changelings who don't have the rigid outlook probably end up ascending to Q tier or above.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

Iím rewatching ds9 for the first time in years and I cannot overstate how much I love Avery Brooksí Sisko. Itís like, what if Jack Torrence got just enough therapy and medication before going to the Overlook, so the fact that he is fated to be its caretaker only keeps him at a constant state of low level annoyance that occasionally spikes when something especially stupefying occurs.

Like the Shining saturday morning cartoon where everybody all lives together in the big haunted hotel and there's wacky new guests, ghosts and/or ghost guests every week

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




mysterious frankie posted:

If The Shining had come out a decade later Hannah Barbara would have has something airing on Saturday, and Danny would have had a cowardly talking hedge animal sidekick. I would associate the property with the cartoon more strongly than I do the source material.

Something something the Simpsons episode

Actually a big wacky haunted hotel does sound like a pretty good premise for a show. Could be to The Shining what Gravity Falls was to Twin Peaks.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Reminded of Young Justice and criticism that came down to "Of all the plots they could have had for the black character, they went with 'my dad ran off to be a criminal'"

Black Manta having a half-Atlantean kid is interesting, but still.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALFi3cO_Co

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




That it goes completely without saying is rather the point. Though especially effective given the show wasn't shy about portraying the African-American experience, especially in the time travel episodes. Also think about how Sisko has to listen to Dukat's ranting about Bajorans. And in Past Tense when black Sisko and brown Bashir are thrown into the Sanctuary District, while Jadzia, who passes as an attractive white woman with tattoos, gets picked up by a tech bro.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The welfare offices with mandatory meetings to supposedly look for work with zero success are already way too familiar.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




On a lighter note: Nog's send-off party with him auctioning off his childhood belongings is played like just another cynical Ferengi thing, but looking at things like Asian weddings and graduation parties, it strikes me like a lot of rituals being a socially acceptable way to give a young person money to launch their life without it appearing as charity. Not like most of his material goods are going to be worth much, especially with replicators being a thing.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The answer to 'does Sisko make x look cool' is always 'yes'

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Sisko's in a weird position there since a guy who actually talks to gods probably has a hard time being faithful, that's like believing in the postman.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Seems like it's only a recent thing that writers wouldn't make huge age gap relationships between older men and younger women almost a complete given. At least iirc Garak rebuffs her- I think the main thing is that they're the only two Cardassians on DS9 at that point, and so Garak's basically the only person Ziyal can talk to without reservations, and she's lived most of her life as a refugee or slave so her ideas of relationships are probably pretty messed up.

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